FSU vs The ACC

[cuse62]

I have no clue about these types of lawsuits. What would be the timeframe of this suit starting?

 

[TexanMark]

Hasn't Kent been in this position for 8+ years? Some of this has to fall on him.

Agreed. I wish Cuse would start to emphasize more STEM. The nod to Micron is a step in the right direction.

 

[orangenauburn]

Here's what the ACC should do

Nothing.

BUT

If they do end up caving they better make it painful.

$50m up front exit fee per remaining conference team + ND, SMU, Cal, Stanford ($900m)

Plus

Give up television and media rights through the remainder of the contract term (13 more years)

Plus cover legal fees

ACC divides up the $900m amongst remaining members, with the remaining 14 members getting $60m each and the new guys plus ND splitting the remaining $60m

 

[Cusefan69]

Agreed. I wish Cuse would start to emphasize more STEM. The nod to Micron is a step in the right direction.

I would love to see Syracuse NVRC work to coordinate with Micron and drive some programs and certifications that would be of benefit to Micron and vets/families of vets.

 

[elimunelson]

Here's what the ACC should do

Nothing.

BUT

If they do end up caving they better make it painful.

$50m up front exit fee per remaining conference team + ND, SMU, Cal, Stanford ($900m)

Plus

Give up television and media rights through the remainder of the contract term (13 more years)

Plus cover legal fees

ACC divides up the $900m amongst remaining members, with the remaining 14 members getting $60m each and the new guys plus ND splitting the remaining $60m

i still think more schools leave once the door is cracked open.

our hope is ND figures out a confederation with the remaining private schools that want to play big time football. Something akin to ND (independent still) and Friends. Hoops gets sent back to the big east, where we belong, and the football is viable because the ND halo effect with the remaining x number of teams. It'll probably end up with a per annum check that can support the program.

 

[sutomcat]

I would love to see Syracuse NVRC work to coordinate with Micron and drive some programs and certifications that would be of benefit to Micron and vets/families of vets.

Pretty sure I have read that Micron is very progressive supporting vets with good jobs. If I remember right, their first hire here was a vet (who I think worked at SU).

This is definitely going to happen.

 

[oldpinepoint]

i still think more schools leave once the door is cracked open.

our hope is ND figures out a confederation with the remaining private schools that want to play big time football. Something akin to ND (independent still) and Friends. Hoops gets sent back to the big east, where we belong, and the football is viable because the ND halo effect with the remaining x number of teams. It'll probably end up with a per annum check that can support the program.

I hope we go to the Big 10, if that doesn’t work who knows maybe the big 12, if they doesn’t work, maybe the model you speak of

 

[HRE Otto IV]

i still think more schools leave once the door is cracked open.

our hope is ND figures out a confederation with the remaining private schools that want to play big time football. Something akin to ND (independent still) and Friends. Hoops gets sent back to the big east, where we belong, and the football is viable because the ND halo effect with the remaining x number of teams. It'll probably end up with a per annum check that can support the program.

As long as Notre Dame is an Indy in FB, the ACC can survive.

At the end of the day though I think we are in a 30 team B1G made up of six 5 team divisions: old PAC 8s, old Big 8s, old Big 10 Ws, old Big 10 Es, old East Indies, old ACCs.

The SEC would be 20 teams made up of four 5 team divisions: old SWCs, old SEC Ws, old SEC Es, old ACCs.

The B12 will be a 20 team leftover conference.

 

[Cusefan69]

Pretty sure I have read that Micron is very progressive supporting vets with good jobs. If I remember right, their first hire here was a vet (who I think worked at SU).

This is definitely going to happen.

Thanks for sharing. Great to hear.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The point is that FSU executed-and even fought for-the contracts. Not openly stated but based on facts, FSU is claiming their lawyers were idiots and now they need help getting out of a bad deal they were told was a good deal.

Honestly, they would be better off using their legal and financial advisors. But they can't sluff off blaming the advisors because the school educates professionals and has professionals on staff for this purpose. In short, the lawsuit is their "hail Mary" pass with one receiver versus four DBs and an O-Line leaking like a sieve. Their goal is to force the ACC into a negotiated settlement.

Even their demand to retroactively declare their intent to leave is a farce as it was not delivered by the due date as spelled out in the contract. In short, they are declaring they are breaching the contract, refuse to comply with the contract and that the ACC must now down and kiss their feet on the way out. Even Clemson, UVA, and UNC are not going to let them off that easy in spite of having and eye on the same opportunity.

It's not that simple, though, because of ESPN twice delaying the promised launch of the ACC Network, which had been written into the contract and was several years late in coming to cable and online. Then, when ESPN finally delivered the ACC Network tier of product, they unilaterally executed a 9 year extension of the ACC deal at no revenue increase.

This is the point where the ACC and all its members, not just Florida State, were screwed. Why would the ACC kill its premier basketball conference, when it had a viable football conference with excellent brands and championship quality? The viewers are on the east coast, for chrissakes!

ESPN is an inevitable party in the suit as it moves forward. Has to happen that way. And I feel that many schools will feel hard done by, and will eventually join an action, just like they have been signaling with their Group of 7 Schools meetings to plot their media and conference consolidation strategies.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I was just chuckling to myself about how this stuff used to really get me worked up...10 years ago.
Now, I'm in the "whatever" phase of introspection.
I love SU athletics more than anything, but I've walked away from things I've loved if they became toxic to me, ie; MLB.
As much as it would hurt, if necessary- I'll do so again. -sigh-

 

[IthacaMatt]

Here's what the ACC should do

Nothing.

BUT

If they do end up caving they better make it painful.

$50m up front exit fee per remaining conference team + ND, SMU, Cal, Stanford ($900m)

Plus

Give up television and media rights through the remainder of the contract term (13 more years)

Plus cover legal fees

ACC divides up the $900m amongst remaining members, with the remaining 14 members getting $60m each and the new guys plus ND splitting the remaining $60m

I guess we'll see how good that contract is. And we will also see who has the most juice with legislators of importance, because we know that's coming, too. We've seen this movie before, unfortunately.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I have no clue about these types of lawsuits. What would be the timeframe of this suit starting?

it's funny, but it happened pretty quickly by Federal Court standards last time - 12 to 18 months, if I recall correctly. Although it has been 20 years.

 

[HtownOrange]

I live in Florida and your point of view is correct. PS: UF is extremely selective now and is one of the top 5 public universities in the U.S.

People forget that Bobby Bowden and others fought to have FSU join the ACC for academic purposes instead of the SEC. Of course, money was much less of an issue then, but many at FSU saw that improving academics and perception were needs at that time.

 

[HtownOrange]

Even if the case, if the contract violates law, whether Florida or other, it can be argued/determined to be 'against Public Policy'. Accordingly, in that case, it may end up being null & void and unenforceable.

The main argument is that FSU is a part of the State of Florida and joining in a contract they knew or should have known was null and void is disingenuous at best on the part of FSU. At worst, they were commiting outright fraud.

Unless there is a clear showing of a change in public policy since the GOR and the ACC agreements were initiated, the argument is much harder to prove from a state entity perspective. Further, the agreements would likely be grandfathered in until such time they were to be renewed.

 

[HtownOrange]

It's not that simple, though, because of ESPN twice delaying the promised launch of the ACC Network, which had been written into the contract and was several years late in coming to cable and online. Then, when ESPN finally delivered the ACC Network tier of product, they unilaterally executed a 9 year extension of the ACC deal at no revenue increase.

This is the point where the ACC and all its members, not just Florida State, were screwed. Why would the ACC kill its premier basketball conference, when it had a viable football conference with excellent brands and championship quality? The viewers are on the east coast, for chrissakes!

ESPN is an inevitable party in the suit as it moves forward. Has to happen that way. And I feel that many schools will feel hard done by, and will eventually join an action, just like they have been signaling with their Group of 7 Schools meetings to plot their media and conference consolidation strategies.

The contract for the network included cash incentives if the network was not up and running on time. The ACC collected and distributed the incentives (essentially liquidated damages). Now the ACC is up and running, making a profit and paying more than the minimum payout.

 

[kcsu]

I don't think so. We had a dramatic fall, featured in a academic magazine with the title the Syracuse slide, under Nancy. We haven't risen back up, but at least the slide stopped.

The Wee one will go down as a major failure at SU

 

[kcsu]

The main argument is that FSU is a part of the State of Florida and joining in a contract they knew or should have known was null and void is disingenuous at best on the part of FSU. At worst, they were commiting outright fraud.

Unless there is a clear showing of a change in public policy since the GOR and the ACC agreements were initiated, the argument is much harder to prove from a state entity perspective. Further, the agreements would likely be grandfathered in until such time they were to be renewed.

If you follow the GOR structure the parties anticipated State interference and made sure that it was covered. FSU might win with a kangaroo Florida judge but it won't stick.

 

[kcsu]

It's not that simple, though, because of ESPN twice delaying the promised launch of the ACC Network, which had been written into the contract and was several years late in coming to cable and online. Then, when ESPN finally delivered the ACC Network tier of product, they unilaterally executed a 9 year extension of the ACC deal at no revenue increase.

This is the point where the ACC and all its members, not just Florida State, were screwed. Why would the ACC kill its premier basketball conference, when it had a viable football conference with excellent brands and championship quality? The viewers are on the east coast, for chrissakes!

ESPN is an inevitable party in the suit as it moves forward. Has to happen that way. And I feel that many schools will feel hard done by, and will eventually join an action, just like they have been signaling with their Group of 7 Schools meetings to plot their media and conference consolidation strategies.

It actually is simple. I'm sure that there was cure clause and I'm sure that ESPN adhered to it.

 

[Toga]

Wonder if somehow Wildhack might be called as a material witness at some point down the line. By either side potentially.

 

[JimBoston]

I don't think so. We had a dramatic fall, featured in a academic magazine with the title the Syracuse slide, under Nancy. We haven't risen back up, but at least the slide stopped.

Syracuse is still a very good school but demographics and location have worked against it. The HS student population in the Northeast is declining which works against the school. And, location works against Syracuse as the states with growing population are not located near Syracuse. That is part of the reason Florida and FSU have leaped Syracuse in selectivity as the HS student population in Florida has grown so, naturally, the applications to the Florida state schools have surged. In 1980/1981 New York had over double the number of HS grads as Florida. Now, Florida has ~10% more. Another trend is kids are looking south for schools. I live in the Boston area and I am amazed at the number of kids who apply to Clemson, Elon, Coastal Carolina, Miami, Wake Forest,... And, flying to those schools is closer than driving to Syracuse.

 

[dasher]

Syracuse is still a very good school but demographics and location have worked against it. The HS student population in the Northeast is declining which works against the school. And, location works against Syracuse as the states with growing population are not located near Syracuse. That is part of the reason Florida and FSU have leaped Syracuse in selectivity as the HS student population in Florida has grown so, naturally, the applications to the Florida state schools have surged. In 1980/1981 New York had over double the number of HS grads as Florida. Now, Florida has ~10% more. Another trend is kids are looking south for schools. I live in the Boston area and I am amazed at the number of kids who apply to Clemson, Elon, Coastal Carolina, Miami, Wake Forest,... And, flying to those schools is closer than driving to Syracuse.

We were having a discussion about whether Syracuse could put up the numbers that Wake had. Remember? You said they couldn't. I said they could. The idea, and your position was basically that Dino was doing about the best that could be done with what Syracuse had to offer. And then Syracuse hired Fran Brown. I also live in the northeast and rarely hear about kids going south. I'm sure some do. Most don't. Syracuse fall down the academic ranks has almost nothing to do with the changing demos. It has to do with a chancy (Nancy Cantor) who tried to make Syracuse a state school. Nothing wrong with a state school. But kids don't want to pay 50k to go to one.

 

[Sherman20]

The ACC has incentive based payouts for post season achievements. I think you’re right and ACC payouts were better than anticipated, but the B12 will get to renegotiate 7 years sooner which is the big difference since it’s almost a lock they will negotiate a much better deal until the ACC (Hopefully) has a chance to negotiate in 2036.
Here is an article not from twitter/reddit that mentions the same exact schools being consistently stated as interested in leaving if there is an escape route.

Explaining ACC's grant of rights deal and what it means as conference realignment continues

The ACC's grant of right agreement looms large as NCAA conference realignment news continues. Here's everything you need to know about the ACC's deal.

www.courier-journal.com

Here is a snap shot with payout estimates that show why schools are so eager to get out of the GoR
View attachment 235764

The Navigate chart is the one I’ve seen before, which shows the ACC surpassing the Big 12 in overall revenue distribution. I’ve also seen some estimates of the ACC being even significantly higher than the Big 12 in the next few years. You also have to factor in the ACC getting more money for Stanford, Cal and SMU and a good chunk of that will go to increase payouts to the other ACC schools. SMU is forgoing any TV payouts for several years. So the ACC will be ahead of the Big 12 in per school distributions for the foreseeable future. Moreover, the ACC will get a chance to raid the Big 12 of their best programs when their GOR is nearing expiration in 2029 and that will likely prompt another ESPN contract renegotiation for the ACC.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Syracuse is still a very good school but demographics and location have worked against it. The HS student population in the Northeast is declining which works against the school. And, location works against Syracuse as the states with growing population are not located near Syracuse. That is part of the reason Florida and FSU have leaped Syracuse in selectivity as the HS student population in Florida has grown so, naturally, the applications to the Florida state schools have surged. In 1980/1981 New York had over double the number of HS grads as Florida. Now, Florida has ~10% more. Another trend is kids are looking south for schools. I live in the Boston area and I am amazed at the number of kids who apply to Clemson, Elon, Coastal Carolina, Miami, Wake Forest,... And, flying to those schools is closer than driving to Syracuse.

I know my friend’s children and grandchildren, would apply to the Miami, FSU, Clemsons etc just to see if they were accepted even if they weren’t serious about attending. The University of Tampa was a favorite to apply to a few years ago. Many schools now aren’t charging for applications - even some high schools are saying the first 10 applications are free - when I was in school the cost of just applying was a real deterrent from applying to lots of colleges. It has to be an issue for colleges to figure out who is serious about attending vs those who aren’t. It would be interesting to see what % who are accepted actually do attend. My granddaughter applied to 18 colleges and was wait listed at just one out of all of them and they even contacted her late after she committed to a school, saying she was accepted.

 

[Sherman20]

That’s with Texas and Oklahoma. ASU, Arizona, Utah and Colorado couldn’t attract $30m/year with Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU, Cal and Stanford. Not sure how WVU, the State of Kansas, the 2nd biggest schools in Oklahoma, Iowa and Ohio along with a bunch of Texas schools that probably make 20% of the Texas market share are going to do better than they would have with a reconstituted PAC 12.

Truth.