FSU vs The ACC

[DPCuse]

Rankings are a game. They are based on selectivity as we have discussed. So if you waive your application fee and do things to promote applications to your school….boom, you naturally look more selective because you still accept the same amount of kids. It’s also based on endowment per student. It’s based on spending per student….which promotes more spending and higher tuition. It’s also based in part of what your peer school presidents think of you because they are surveyed. It’s based on how many Pell eligible kids you have. Hardly any of it is based on the quality of the educational experience.

Do I agree with the system? No but that’s reality and the game schools play because outsiders set the rules and schools try to play it which isn’t good for the business of higher education.

 

[jgeorge322]

Rankings are a game. They are based on selectivity as we have discussed. So if you waive your application fee and do things to promote applications to your school….boom, you naturally look more selective because you still accept the same amount of kids. It’s also based on endowment per student. It’s based on spending per student….which promotes more spending and higher tuition. It’s also based in part of what your peer school presidents think of you because they are surveyed. It’s based on how many Pell eligible kids you have. Hardly any of it is based on the quality of the educational experience.

Do I agree with the system? No but that’s reality and the game schools play because outsiders set the rules and schools try to play it which isn’t good for the business of higher education.

Good point, the US News stuff is a bunch of BS. I also work in an industry where you can buy your own accolades like “best lawyer” for $189 (inclusive of cyber monday discount). These things are all a joke. What really matters is will a school get you to where you need to go and not burden you with excessive debt. The answer to that depends on multitude of factors, none of which is rankings. Also, is it a good fit for you culturally. Maybe a student is better off at a smaller school like colgate versus a school with a huge student population. Comparing Florida and Syracuse as if one is better than the other is pointless endeavour. What matters is if the school is a good fit for the particular student.

 

[Newhouser]

FSU would rather lose without their full squad so they have an excuse. “The Committee did this to us! Not our fault. That’s why we have to move conferences, so we don’t have players bailing on our whiny program during the postseason.” Yada yada ACC yada yada need more $$ yada yada

Honestly, it’s like the entire program just gave up on the postseason after the selection show snub. If there was no money in the bowl game, they probably would have declined it and gone home. All the school cares about is the payout $$$. Winning the game is secondary.

Probably the best decision for that kid…get out of that clown show. Why play for a fanbase that will judge you for who you aren’t? Hmmm…sounds like Ohio State.

I'm not taking any shots at any teams effort in regard to their bowl game. This far we have set the bar for mailing it in.

 

[DoctorBombay]

Syracuse is still a very good school but demographics and location have worked against it. The HS student population in the Northeast is declining which works against the school. And, location works against Syracuse as the states with growing population are not located near Syracuse. That is part of the reason Florida and FSU have leaped Syracuse in selectivity as the HS student population in Florida has grown so, naturally, the applications to the Florida state schools have surged. In 1980/1981 New York had over double the number of HS grads as Florida. Now, Florida has ~10% more. Another trend is kids are looking south for schools. I live in the Boston area and I am amazed at the number of kids who apply to Clemson, Elon, Coastal Carolina, Miami, Wake Forest,... And, flying to those schools is closer than driving to Syracuse.

Yeah, I don't see the demographics angle too much. We're a school in the NE, a coupla hours away from Cornell. We're not Ivy League, but we're not chopped liver either.
We need to go back to being a selector school- maybe start prepping for a readmission to AAU status? I just think we need to get a bit more creative and start doing things that'll make us standout. For example, I believe Micron presents an amazing opportunity, not just for the City but SU as well.
We can leverage a relationship w/ Micron in so many different ways, much like we've done with JMC wireless. Make it more attractive for nerds and to wanna come here. It just makes sense.

 

[Newhouser]

Here's a thought for all the legal beagles; If the GOR is found to be invalid or breakable, what's to prevent the opposite from happening? Why couldn't conferences determine that certain members were not as valuable, and then boot them for other programs who might be worth more to them? After all, they'll be no more restricted movement between conferences, and since it's all about money, why not leave a Vanderbilt or Northwestern behind?

I think this eventually happens anyway. Think the B10 and SEC tell Vandy, rutgirls, Northwestern etc. that the networks are forcing a 2 league set up and we have to boot you.

 

[Moontan]

The Bright Futures program gives free tuition at state schools when a kid hits certain academic and community service targets.

Georgia has a similar plan (GAfutures) that will pay for full tuition at state schools.
We still pay for fees & books. The program is funded by the Georgia Lottery.

 

[BlazeOrange]

I know my friend’s children and grandchildren, would apply to the Miami, FSU, Clemsons etc just to see if they were accepted even if they weren’t serious about attending. The University of Tampa was a favorite to apply to a few years ago. Many schools now aren’t charging for applications - even some high schools are saying the first 10 applications are free - when I was in school the cost of just applying was a real deterrent from applying to lots of colleges. It has to be an issue for colleges to figure out who is serious about attending vs those who aren’t. It would be interesting to see what % who are accepted actually do attend. My granddaughter applied to 18 colleges and was wait listed at just one out of all of them and they even contacted her late after she committed to a school, saying she was accepted.

The low/no fees are one factor, the Common Application is another. Just fill out one form and click on the schools that will be applied to, instead of going thru the whole rigmarole for each college. Makes it very easy to take alot of shots.

Every school my daughter toured last year mentioned how they're receiving record numbers of applicants. I agree with Cherie that attendance % (vs both application and acceptance) would be a more interesting statistic than acceptance rates now.

 

[Consigliere]

Georgia has a similar plan (GAfutures) that will pay for full tuition at state schools.
We still pay for fees & books. The program is funded by the Georgia Lottery.

And New York State has the Excelsior program that offers free tuition at SUNY and CUNY schools for all high school graduates with family incomes of $125,000 or less. of course none of these programs apply to private schools.

 

[GoSU96]

Even if the case, if the contract violates law, whether Florida or other, it can be argued/determined to be 'against Public Policy'. Accordingly, in that case, it may end up being null & void and unenforceable.

What’s the theory behind that?

What public interest is harmed by the university acting in a commercial capacity and forming a partnership? Where’s the illegal activity? Any individual rights being restricted?

Being unhappy is not a grounds to void an agreement.

 

[whobut03]

And New York State has the Excelsior program that offers free tuition at SUNY and CUNY schools for all high school graduates with family incomes of $125,000 or less. of course none of these programs apply to private schools.

The Say Yes to Education program within the Syracuse City Schools fills in the gap here a bit.

 

[MSOrange]

Georgia has a similar plan (GAfutures) that will pay for full tuition at state schools.
We still pay for fees & books. The program is funded by the Georgia Lottery.

Is that the same thing as the Hope Scholarship back when I lived there and went to college in the 90s?

 

[Willy75]

Georgia has a similar plan (GAfutures) that will pay for full tuition at state schools.
We still pay for fees & books. The program is funded by the Georgia Lottery.

Florida also has a plan (at least I think it’s different) where in-state parents can pay their kids future tuition at today’s rates and down the road they can attend any state school. Also covers one year of r&b.
UF and FSU are fine academic schools and are increasingly hard to get into even for in-state kids.

 

[texascpa]

Florida also has a plan (at least I think it’s different) where in-state parents can pay their kids future tuition at today’s rates and down the road they can attend any state school. Also covers one year of r&b.
UF and FSU are fine academic schools and are increasingly hard to get into even for in-state kids.

I'm guessing you're speaking of 529 plans. All states have them, but they can be different depending on the state.

 

[CarolinaCuse]

Georgia has a similar plan (GAfutures) that will pay for full tuition at state schools.
We still pay for fees & books. The program is funded by the Georgia Lottery.

The Georgia HOPE Scholarship program allows for a benefit to attend private institutions as well, which is different that the Florida Bright Futures program and the NY Excelsior program.

I mentioned this in another thread, but the HOPE Scholarship program has been transformative for the Georgia higher education system. I did a report for UGA’s admissions office about 30 years ago, a few years after it was implemented. The positive changes in admissions profiles of students was notable back then. Honestly, I think the HOPE helped to increase the academic profiles of institutions like Georgia Southern, Georgia State, and Kennesaw State that have also allowed them to increase their football profiles.

 

[orlandoorange]

Thats cause you live in Florida, which most people don’t. Congrats on your kid though. She sounds like she is doing great!

How much is Florida if you don’t live there and hit those targets?

Also, Cuse gives out scholarships to well performing students.

Thank you and you're right. IIRC SU was $55K per year after scholarships for us.

The state schools here are probably comparable to SUNY pricing, in state is $6K ish, OOS $18K ish.

If you had asked me about the private vs public schools before I had to pay for it, I'd have said private. Now, not so much.

 

[orangecuse]

The main argument is that FSU is a part of the State of Florida and joining in a contract they knew or should have known was null and void is disingenuous at best on the part of FSU. At worst, they were commiting outright fraud.

Unless there is a clear showing of a change in public policy since the GOR and the ACC agreements were initiated, the argument is much harder to prove from a state entity perspective. Further, the agreements would likely be grandfathered in until such time they were to be renewed.

Appreciate the tactful response.

What about the angle under the Public Policy, Impossibility area?

In some cases, a contract is deemed unenforceable because it would be impossible or impracticable to carry out its terms -- too difficult or too expensive, for example. To claim impossibility, you would need to show that:

• you can't complete performance under the contract because of some unexpected event that's not your fault
• the contract didn't make the risk of the unexpected event something you needed to shoulder, and
• performing the contract will be much more difficult or expensive now.

Unenforceable Contracts: What to Watch Out For

What kinds of contracts might not hold up in court? A contract might be unenforceable due to a party's state of mind, unfair bargaining practices, or illegality.

www.nolo.com

Couldn't an "unexpected event" be the demise of the Pac-12 conference spearheading a move towards only having 2 power conferences by those power play entities? Unforeseen, which ultimately has a direct impact on FSU's future of being competitive et al (and all that that encompasses) comprehensively as a public/state flagship institution?

Would the existing contract be more "expensive now" (in the way that if it didn't exist) and how otherwise FSU would be able to relatively seamlessly transfer over to the B1G or SEC and reap the financial benefits of it?

 

[orlandoorange]

Excuse me. Florida is an absolute mess politically. Those shots at Florida aren’t outdated.

Lol, not according to over half of the state, many of whom are from the Northeast.

 

[BomberOrange]

And New York State has the Excelsior program that offers free tuition at SUNY and CUNY schools for all high school graduates with family incomes of $125,000 or less. of course none of these programs apply to private schools.

That should be open to all kids that qualify academically like FL or GA

 

[DoctorBombay]

Couldn't an "unexpected event" be the demise of the Pac-12 conference spearheading a move towards only having 2 power conferences by those power play entities? Unforeseen, which ultimately has a direct impact on FSU's future of being competitive et al (and all that that encompasses) comprehensively as a public/state flagship institution?

Not a lawyer, didn't play one on tv...but I did take the LSAT once, almost passed too!
Anyway, I'd think the overall performance or viability of a separate organization, ie: PAC 12, would have no obligatory significance on the contractual obligations of another org, ie; ACC. Especially considering the PAC 12 implosion came well after the ACC contract was already signed and in effect.
It'd be the equivalent of Ford Motor Co refusing to honor a contract, because of the bad performance of GM.
If we extrapolate that even further, couldn't the ACC then sue the PAC 12 leftovers for not keeping their conference alive?
Or how about suing the B1G/SEC for poaching said PAC 12 members, and causing the implosion in the 1st place? Just spit ballin...

 

[GoSU96]

Appreciate the tactful response.

What about this under the Public Policy, Impossibility area? I find the last bullet point particularly interesting.
In some cases, a contract is deemed unenforceable because it would be impossible or impracticable to carry out its terms -- too difficult or too expensive, for example. To claim impossibility, you would need to show that:

you can't complete performance under the contract because of some unexpected event that's not your fault

• the contract didn't make the risk of the unexpected event something you needed to shoulder, and
• performing the contract will be much more difficult or expensive now.

Unenforceable Contracts: What to Watch Out For

What kinds of contracts might not hold up in court? A contract might be unenforceable due to a party's state of mind, unfair bargaining practices, or illegality.

www.nolo.com

There’s nothing here that would qualify as force majuere. This isn’t a delivery contract. This isn’t a contract to construct a building and the site cant be built on, it isn’t a contract to develop a technology that stretches the bounds of physics.

its a partnership agreement.

My guess is that acts of government are carved out as a grounds for claiming force majuere anyways.

 

[GoSU96]

Appreciate the tactful response.

What about the angle under the Public Policy, Impossibility area?

In some cases, a contract is deemed unenforceable because it would be impossible or impracticable to carry out its terms -- too difficult or too expensive, for example. To claim impossibility, you would need to show that:

• you can't complete performance under the contract because of some unexpected event that's not your fault
• the contract didn't make the risk of the unexpected event something you needed to shoulder, and
• performing the contract will be much more difficult or expensive now.

Unenforceable Contracts: What to Watch Out For

What kinds of contracts might not hold up in court? A contract might be unenforceable due to a party's state of mind, unfair bargaining practices, or illegality.

www.nolo.com

Couldn't an "unexpected event" be the demise of the Pac-12 conference spearheading a move towards only having 2 power conferences by those power play entities? Unforeseen, which ultimately has a direct impact on FSU's future of being competitive et al (and all that that encompasses) comprehensively as a public/state flagship institution?

Would the existing contract be more "expensive now" (in the way that if it didn't exist) and how otherwise FSU would be able to relatively seamlessly transfer over to the B1G or SEC and reap the financial benefits of it?

The change in conference configuration is exactly why the terms of the agreement are the way they are. Opposite of unexpected

 

[NKR1978]

The change in conference configuration is exactly why the terms of the agreement are the way they are. Opposite of unexpected

It was the entire purpose of the agreement! To create stability among the ACC until 2036.

 

[sutomcat]

One of our legal giants weighs in with his opinion:

https://mikefarrellsports.com/featured/florida-state-has-no-shot-at-getting-out-of-acc-law-will-not-protect-a-party-from-a-bad-deal

Okay, this is a garbage web site and Scott Salomon is just UM communications school grad, just a guy with an opinion, but he thinks the ACC is going to win.

What do the lawyers on this board think?

 

[Willy75]

Excuse me. Florida is an absolute mess politically. Those shots at Florida aren’t outdated.

The NYT and WSJ comments sections are great forums to duke it out with political arguments. Not here please.

 

[texascpa]

One of our legal giants weighs in with his opinion:

https://mikefarrellsports.com/featured/florida-state-has-no-shot-at-getting-out-of-acc-law-will-not-protect-a-party-from-a-bad-deal

Okay, this is a garbage web site and Scott Salomon is just UM communications school grad, just a guy with an opinion, but he thinks the ACC is going to win.

What do the lawyers on this board think?

I think FSU's only way of winning is if they can prove the ACC breached the contract or acted in bad faith. But, signing into a long-term deal and now complaining about it compared to new deals doesn't fall into either of those arguments.