FSU vs The ACC

[wfschrec]

NY is a state with negative population growth and a lower graduation rate than Arkansas, Kentucky, West Virginia, Tennessee while sitting firmly in the bottom 20% and you're throwing stones at Florida?

It’s the boards favorite trope

 

[orangecuse]

Good question.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a licensed Florida attorney. What I opine on this board is just that, my opinion, and should not be construed as legal advice.

Recall that courts generally will enforce contracts, even perceived bad contracts. The presumption is that all parties to contracts have fairly negotiated the terms and agree on the terms before signing the agreement. The party claiming public policy bears the burden of proving why the contract offends the public.

More specifically, does the contract affect public services? (Think kickbacks, falsified billing, providing less services than competitors would for the same amount, nepotism, etc. Do not think in terms of dollars only. Recall a bad deal is still a deal if both parties agree to it. More specifically, a perceived bad deal looking backwards is hard to prove. I invested in a mutual fund but would be a multi millionaire if I had invested in Microsoft, Amazon and Google; my choices being consequences good and bad.)

Does the agreement cause corruption? Think anything that happens in NJ. (See Rutgers).

Will the agreement obstruct or pervert justice? Do you charge a mother protecting her kids from an attacker because she shoots/kills the S.O.B. attacker? (Son of a biscuit, CL; trying to stay on the good side). Public policy would say no, the mother had a right to defend herself and her kids. Also, think obstruction, like (nevermind, this will get to political to explain).

Finally, does the agreement promote litigation? Think along the lines of scumbags taking advantage of illegal aliens, selling personal and/or real property under exorbitant or false schemes and either forcing them into litigation or surrender. (I have had to deal with this, yes it is real).

There is no solid legal definition of "public policy" but this comes close:

The principles, often unwritten, on which social laws are based. (I "benchmarked" -O.K., I stole it- from the interwebs.). Note: this is not the same as a public policy wherein a government creates a solution (or too often so they think) to relieve a social ill. FDR's WPA and CCC, the civil rights laws, Title IX (no, this is not open for debate beyond, start a thread on the proper forum).

Anyway, in my opinion, FSU's perceived bad bargaining does not create bad faith on the part of the ACC, especially as all ACC teams suffer equally under the bargain.

As to the demise of the Pac12, that in reality is merely the completion of their contract. There was no guarantee they would remain together nor fall apart, this it should not have any impact on the lawsuits at hand.

This is too short to give you a full answer but I hope it helps a little.

Thank you.

 

[mayselc]

These will take 18 months minimum to play out in court. The contract will not be voided. All of the FSU arguments to void the contract are subjective. The things they are claiming the ACC didn't do are not part of the contract. They are using implied contract arguments like consideration, intention, etc, The contract gave ESPN an option to extend with no mention of an increase. There is no way they would volunteer extra money, especially with the cable landscape. The weather could change and FSU could get in the expanded playoff the next two seasons and undercut their arguments.

 

[BomberOrange]

It is, but there are also educational eligibility requirements

Ok so it’s not for all kids like GA and FL. That’s what I was saying. Should be for all kids.

 

[IthacaMatt]

NY is a state with negative population growth and a lower graduation rate than Arkansas, Kentucky, West Virginia, Tennessee while sitting firmly in the bottom 20% and you're throwing stones at Florida?

When did "higher" graduation rate become a good thing? Doesn't that mean that your school is easy, if everybody graduates?

 

[kcsu]

Yeah I think of Florida as half their population are retired snowbirds and its all empty second homes but reality is its an economic wagon.

I had some super lib quad boosted/vax cousins of mine in their early 30s relocate there from NYC with their huge remote salarys to beat state taxes.

States also small very easy to get from the less populated areas to the bigger ones. I have a trade show so am taking my SO for a few days then visiting clients than trade show. Were flying to Orlando and if its warm we'll do beach Cocoa or Daytona not warm theme parks stay in Orlando. I'll be able to get everywhere in 2 days after she flys back Tues 6am and then my trade show Thursday. Its kind of like Europe or other countries in not being too big and stuff being kind of close.

Like a moron I booked 39 dollar direct Spirit flights for me and her and then realized I need to bring 50 calendars a bunch of other marketing stuff etc though lol for the work end. My GF actually gave me a good idea to buy a neck pillow to pack my clothes underwear etc in and then just bring work materials in my carry on.

Pack your clothes in a neck pillow? How big are you?

 

[elimunelson]

End of day I’m a bit contrarian on this stupidity. Syracuse will play football no matter if FSU gets out of jail next year or 2030.

I’d argue that we let them out now because it’s obvious where this is all going. They will pay the largest exit to do it along w Clemson and UNC and UVA (it’s inevitable) and then with our dividend we can reform where Syracuse situates itself in college football 2.0

I hear all the legal arguments and agree fsu is swimming upstream w 99% of them. It won’t matter because it’s inevitable. They want to leave and nothing will stop them. It’s just timing. I would gather espn will figure out how to offset the Gor For another property they own (sec?).

 

[NKR1978]

Yes, I and fans of teams wouldn't watch it either, but the casual fans with no real ties and the fans of those schools will watch and some network will pay big bucks for it, more than the football portion of the B1G and SEC contracts pay now.

People will stop watching when some of those brands start to fall in stature after years of 2-10 and 3-9. This would require all the other schools boycotting them so they can't pad their records, so maybe 5-7 is more likelt. Other brands will rise. WVU exploded when VT and Miami left the Big East.

 

[orlandoorange]

People will stop watching when some of those brands start to fall in stature after years of 2-10 and 3-9. This would require all the other schools boycotting them so they can't pad their records, so maybe 5-7 is more likelt. Other brands will rise. WVU exploded when VT and Miami left the Big East.

Good point. It will be difficult for others schools to avoid when offered a large payout to play the role of the Washington Generals, (I think that's who the Globetrotters used to play,) similar to the first 4 or 5 weeks of current seasons.

 

[CuseLegacy]

Gentlemen, if you want to discuss politics please take it to the OT forum. This is the FSU vs the ACC thread.

 

[GoSU96]

End of day I’m a bit contrarian on this stupidity. Syracuse will play football no matter if FSU gets out of jail next year or 2030.

I’d argue that we let them out now because it’s obvious where this is all going. They will pay the largest exit to do it along w Clemson and UNC and UVA (it’s inevitable) and then with our dividend we can reform where Syracuse situates itself in college football 2.0

I hear all the legal arguments and agree fsu is swimming upstream w 99% of them. It won’t matter because it’s inevitable. They want to leave and nothing will stop them. It’s just timing. I would gather espn will figure out how to offset the Gor For another property they own (sec?).

I think you are missing something. FSU can’t be held in absolutely, but there is a cost for them to do so. There isn’t one person with a lick of sense that doesn’t know FSU has a right to leave.

The argument isn’t about if FSU or any other school can leave or not, they can, it’s about how much do they have pay the conference to do so. The conference doesn’t have a right to keep them in against their will. FSU can leave any time they want. They don’t want to get out their checkbook.

All their maneuvering is about lowering exits costs, not about if they can leave or not.

 

[orlandoorange]

FSU has to compete within the ACC conference. Not the Big the Pac the SEC the AAC the Mac the Sun
They just won the ACC championship. They just by their own proclamation signed one of the best classes not only in the ACC but in the entire country. They beat teams from other conferences. I would say that they are doing just fine competitively. Argument doesn't hold any water.

If only it were that clear cut. FSU, and SU, and every school compete for the same recruits.

SEC payouts will be $100M by 2028. Moneyball only works for so long before the competitive disadvantage starts to show in the field.

I get it, they signed the agreement, blah blah, blah. Its their job to figure out how to position their product in the best possible way. This is one step in doing so. Will they succeed? Probably not the first time, but who knows, we'll see.

 

[rocklloyd]

So if 4 schools exit, we’re looking at $2b in fees? I find it hard to believe each of the schools including FSU can come up with money

 

[capeorange]

When did "higher" graduation rate become a good thing? Doesn't that mean that your school is easy, if everybody graduates?

So being in the bottom 20% must be a good thing....

 

[David321]

 

[elimunelson]

I think you are missing something. FSU can’t be held in absolutely, but there is a cost for them to do so. There isn’t one person with a lick of sense that doesn’t know FSU has a right to leave.

The argument isn’t about if FSU or any other school can leave or not, they can, it’s about how much do they have pay the conference to do so. The conference doesn’t have a right to keep them in against their will. FSU can leave any time they want. They don’t want to get out their checkbook.

All their maneuvering is about lowering exits costs, not about if they can leave or not.

It’s all about the cost then which is what I said. The number drops yearly so there will be an intersection of reasonable exit figures at some point. They will negotiate off of that date.

FSU has already left in spirit when they sued the rest of the league. Question now is who will stick around. I doubt unc will get their payout from fsu without a clawback when they decide to leave.

To me the ACC as we know it is dead. I wonder what happens next for SU. I trust wildhack to get us positioned

 

[longtimefan]

It’s all about the cost then which is what I said. The number drops yearly so there will be an intersection of reasonable exit figures at some point. They will negotiate off of that date.

FSU has already left in spirit when they sued the rest of the league. Question now is who will stick around. I doubt unc will get their payout from fsu without a clawback when they decide to leave.

To me the ACC as we know it is dead. I wonder what happens next for SU. I trust wildhack to get us positioned

If you reduce the remaining years by half--split the difference--that would bring us to 2029 or 2030. Which is also when the Big XII contract is up for renewal. Interesting times.

 

[GoSU96]

It’s all about the cost then which is what I said. The number drops yearly so there will be an intersection of reasonable exit figures at some point. They will negotiate off of that date.

FSU has already left in spirit when they sued the rest of the league. Question now is who will stick around. I doubt unc will get their payout from fsu without a clawback when they decide to leave.

To me the ACC as we know it is dead. I wonder what happens next for SU. I trust wildhack to get us positioned

It would be a mistake to negotiate.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

Gentlemen, if you want to discuss politics please take it to the OT forum. This is the FSU vs the ACC thread.

 

[Moontan]

It is, but there are also educational eligibility requirements

No such financial limits in GA.

 

[HtownOrange]

I think you are missing something. FSU can’t be held in absolutely, but there is a cost for them to do so. There isn’t one person with a lick of sense that doesn’t know FSU has a right to leave.

The argument isn’t about if FSU or any other school can leave or not, they can, it’s about how much do they have pay the conference to do so. The conference doesn’t have a right to keep them in against their will. FSU can leave any time they want. They don’t want to get out their checkbook.

All their maneuvering is about lowering exits costs, not about if they can leave or not.

To be clear, FSU can leave. The debate is not about whether they can leave, they can. The issue for FSU is that they have no TV rights to bring with them. The TV rights are what makes FSU attractive to other conferences, or so FSU believes. Their recent behavior is more likely to be viewed as a negative than a positive. The SEC and the B1G for all of their greed, have core teams that keep the conference balanced. If FSU is not a good fit, they may not get the offer they think they will receive.

Back to the issue. The ACC has an agreement that states the withdrawal fee is 3X the annual TV conference payment to the teams. UMD did not vote for the increase and was able to negotiate a lower amount. Juxtapose this with FSU's behavior wherein they agreed to and demanded the increase in the withdrawal fee to 3X the TX payout, actively pushing the increase. It is likely that even a biased crooked Florida court cannot explain that away and grant a decrease in the withdrawal fee.

Then, the issue is the buyback of their TV rights. While the deal in hindsight is a bad deal, it was hailed as a great deal when it was signed. That said, the schools, including FSU granted the TV rights to the ACC for the purpose of the receiving the ACCN. The ACC sold the rights to ESPN and received the ACCN, as was agreed to. Payouts are exceeding the minimum guaranteed payout, thus everyone is making more money than originally bargained for.

FSU willingly obligated their TV rights until 2036. ESPN holds those rights as long as they keep the ACCN up and running. Since everyone is making more money than guaranteed, it is hard to see any breach of the agreement. The present value of the rights are approximately $500MM at face value (I hold that the rights are actually worth more, but that is too complicated to explain in an already long post). Thus, neither ESPN nor the ACC has incentive to accommodate FSU with allowing them to buy back their rights for less than their present value.

FSU can refuse to play ACC schools. FSU's home games belong to the ACCN and ESPN with the ACC receiving payment. FSU will not receive any monies for home games. Before anyone gets a bright idea that FSU can agree to play all games away from home until 2036. recall they FSU obligated themselves to provide at least half of their schedule as home games for use by ESPN; if FSU is stupid enough to do this, then FSU is in a clear breach and can be forced to pay damages to ESPN and the ACC (through the ESPN payout). This is why there is no way anyone will offer FSU a landing spot until FSU can acquire their TV rights.

Recall that USC and UCLA waited out their contractual obligations. UT and OU looked into getting out of their GOR but decided otherwise. Then the opportunity to get out a year early arose and they took it. FSU is on the hook to ESPN and the ACC until 2036. FSU can buy back their rights; however, FSU has no money.

FSU having no resources makes everything they are doing a farce. They floated an offer of about about $100MM in the summer to see if anyone would fall for it. No one blinked. They floated the idea of having venture capital pay for the $100MM, aside from the legal questions, again, no one blinked.

This lawsuit is an attempt to scare people with a lawsuit. A decent general counsel to FSU would refuse to file the case because it is frivolous. The complaint is written well, but there is no substance to the claims and arguments. Plus, every ACC school has top lawyers on their side. Most ACC schools have decent to elite law schools, to boot. And let's not forget that ESPN (and ABC, Disney) have excellent lawyers. No one is scared. This is just a show for FSU idiot managers and idiot fans.

Which brings us full circle. While FSU "can" leave the ACC, there is no functional method for FSU leaving unless ESPN and and the ACC agree to give up hundreds of millions of dollars for no reason. IF any school voted to do so, their president/chancellor and their respective boards would be immediately sued for failing to handle the fiduciary responsibilities to the individual schools. So yes, FSU "can" leave, but doing so kills off their program, in reality they cannot leave. There remain reasonable basis for the ACC or ESPN to allow FSU out of the deal. When FSU has resources and the will to leave, then the matter becomes feasible, until then, nobody wants to play games. FSU needs to come to the table with no less than $600MM before the ACC and ESPN will listen.

As a bonus, recall that UNC and UVA both decided it was not worth the costs to get out and both can write a check tomorrow to cover the withdrawal fee and the TV rights buyback. In other words, they don have guaranteed landing spots right now. FSU likely does not, either. If they did, then there would be lawsuits against the leaving schools (not dealing in good faith) and the receiving conferences (tortious interference). That is why the SEC would not actually assist UT and OU in leaving early, the SEC was not going to involve themselves in any legal matters that could cause a problem.*

*The SEC originally agreed with UT and OU to join the SEC AFTER completing the Big 12 deal.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Gentlemen, if you want to discuss politics please take it to the OT forum. This is the FSU vs the ACC thread.

So the poster who started the whole political tangent liked your post.

= Definition of Oblivious

 

[jgeorge322]

I'm not sure it is punitive when it serves a legitimate business purpose (keeping the conference stable) and was freely negotiated by FSU.

a liquidation damages provision typically has to be reasonable and reflective of the actual damages, it cant be punitive

the propriety of liquidation damages provisions is frequently litigated. i am sure there are arguments cutting both ways and no one here has enough details. its very complicated.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Never negotiate with terrorists. That’s who FSU is.

 

[Cusefan69]

Never negotiate with terrorists. That’s who FSU is.

Which is why I was hoping there was a way to apply a fine to FSU from the league. I would think there would be. FSU is attempting a nuclear resolution to the other ACC schools. They should be fined for conduct detrimental or something. FSU cannot get a free pass from the ACC for this behavior once they lose their court case.