FSU vs The ACC

[Chip]

Interesting item posted on our board.

WSU and OSU would be better off with reverse mortgages.

 

[orlandoorange]

I've been waiting for this to come up

FSU names ex-ACC boss in amended complaint

The Florida State board of trustees has filed an amended complaint to its lawsuit against the ACC, naming former commissioner John Swofford in the latest filing.

www.espn.com

 

[rocklloyd]

I've been waiting for this to come up

FSU names ex-ACC boss in amended complaint

The Florida State board of trustees has filed an amended complaint to its lawsuit against the ACC, naming former commissioner John Swofford in the latest filing.

www.espn.com

kinda surprised they didnt lead with this. many of us thought it was "fishy" at the time.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I've been waiting for this to come up

FSU names ex-ACC boss in amended complaint

The Florida State board of trustees has filed an amended complaint to its lawsuit against the ACC, naming former commissioner John Swofford in the latest filing.

www.espn.com

Maybe I am misremembering but didn't ESPN buy all the rights with the idea that the Tier 3 would go to the new ACCN? But the ACCN was delayed so ESPN leased out those games to Raycom?

If that is the case, the ACC isn't entitled to any extra money. FSU is acting like Swofford took the Tier 3 rights and sold them to Raycom for no compensation.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

kinda surprised they didnt lead with this. many of us thought it was "fishy" at the time.

I would think this makes FSU look worse. They are complaining about the Raycom relationship in 2010 (pre GOR) but then went ahead and signed the GOR in 2016. How does that make sense? They willingly signed on knowing about the Raycom stuff for the 6 years prior. It isn't like they signed the GOR and then Raycom came along.

 

[rocklloyd]

I would think this makes FSU look worse. They are complaining about the Raycom relationship in 2010 (pre GOR) but then went ahead and signed the GOR in 2016. How does that make sense? They willingly signed on knowing about the Raycom stuff for the 6 years prior. It isn't like they signed the GOR and then Raycom came along.

i can't remember all of the details, but I seem recall something about the son and some sort of nepotism

 

[WoadBlue]

sad but very true

I think that indeed that is where things are headed And one thing not means is that before long, both BT and even SEC will cull members. Right now, the fools being fanboy for the likes of Vandy, Miss St, SoCar, UK, maybe Ole Miss and Arkansas and Mizzou assume they are safe and going to get even richer, forever. Not so fast, my friends, as Corso says. Several SEC schools ands even more BT schools simply cannot be worth much at all in this world. Nobody gives a tenth of a pile of manure for the entire state of IA. Or MN or WI. If you have ND, you have all in IN that you need (remember, football is KING). NJ is worse than a nothing state.

When the most powerful of the schools in the 2 leagues demanding this and the networks driving it and paying for it feel they are fully safe from the NCAA and any other leagues, and politicians, they then will cull, because they will also resent 'carrying water' for the nothings in their own leagues. Realistically, no more than about 30 programs nationally can bring in the necessary number of TV viewers so that nobody else in that 'league' or 'division' can resent them for not carrying their own weight.

That is where this is headed. We need to make it get there faster, with those 30 or so playing all sports only among themselves, in their own 'division.' or else as proclaimed Professional teams. Then the rest of us can refashion D1 NCAA athletics. That will require a new 'conference realignment, ' but it must be done with all leagues sitting down and agreeing to the changes to focus on making it all about regionalism and historic rivalries as the basis of regular season.

 

[WoadBlue]

i can't remember all of the details, but I seem recall something about the son and some sort of nepotism

Yes, Swofford son worked for Raycom at the time. But Raycom had been working with he ACC forever. Raycom always had been a truly honest media partner. In fact, Raycom had been necessary for a couple of decades at least to the ACC getting good media coverage.

 

[HtownOrange]

Without reading the amended complaint, Adelson's summary is much ado about nothing. The amended complaint may be better but considering the original complaint was barely sufficient for lining bird cages, it will be hard to believe there is much improvement.

Anything done prior to the present GOR is insignificant as FSU waived any opportunity for retribution by both time and signing the present GOR. Further, FSU's own actions demanding the triple annual revenue withdrawal fee and that every school sign the GOR pretty much ensures a high court, if not the trial court, will reject anything prior to the present GOR.

Anyway, have fun with this. FSU is likely to be more scarred by the legal fees they are racking up than any buyout. I am not sure FSU can drag this out in court for too long. They are already crying poverty.

 

[GHLF]

sad but very true

If FSU wins the story is over, what is good and true concerning all that true academia and intracollegiate athletics stand for as a good societal bastion is dead. It would not be unlike the end of other noble structures, ? What is this a reflection of, where do we go?

 

[DoctorBombay]

I've been waiting for this to come up

FSU names ex-ACC boss in amended complaint

The Florida State board of trustees has filed an amended complaint to its lawsuit against the ACC, naming former commissioner John Swofford in the latest filing.

www.espn.com

Now this, may have some merit?

 

[kcsu]

Why would any

Without reading the amended complaint, Adelson's summary is much ado about nothing. The amended complaint may be better but considering the original complaint was barely sufficient for lining bird cages, it will be hard to believe there is much improvement.

Anything done prior to the present GOR is insignificant as FSU waived any opportunity for retribution by both time and signing the present GOR. Further, FSU's own actions demanding the triple annual revenue withdrawal fee and that every school sign the GOR pretty much ensures a high court, if not the trial court, will reject anything prior to the present GOR.

Anyway, have fun with this. FSU is likely to be more scarred by the legal fees they are racking up than any buyout. I am not sure FSU can drag this out in court for too long. They are already crying poverty.

Why would any league want or accept FSU at this point? It would like taking Rudy as your cities Mayor. FSU is in my opinion completely Fd.

 

[HtownOrange]

Why would any

Why would any league want or accept FSU at this point? It would like taking Rudy as your cities Mayor. FSU is in my opinion completely Fd.

Apparently, a few members of the FSU brain trust slammed a keg or three, cried about money, decided that going nuclear on the GOR would be the best way to show a future conference what a good conference mate FSU would be. Especially because they bring money.

Nevermind the facts that FSU has no money, only wants the conference money, and does not manage their present money very well. Nevermind the fact that no other conference will make a ton of money just because FSU joins them, and of course absolutely ignore the fact that FSU went scorched earth on the ACC. Obviously, the keg has more impact on their reasoning capacities than it should have. Especially when FSU has no leverage, no buyout money, and would be in debt put or exceeding any benefit gained by a new conference

Common sense would dictate that FSU shut their collective yap traps, save, and ask donors to build up a rights buy back fund to use when the GOR is insignificant and they can buy their way out. But common sense usually goes the way of the dodo when a keg is involved.


Just my take

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Apparently, a few members of the FSU brain trust slammed a keg or three, cried about money, decided that going nuclear on the GOR would be the best way to show a future conference what a good conference mate FSU would be. Especially because they bring money.

Nevermind the facts that FSU has no money, only wants the conference money, and does not manage their present money very well. Nevermind the fact that no other conference will make a ton of money just because FSU joins them, and of course absolutely ignore the fact that FSU went scorched earth on the ACC. Obviously, the keg has more impact on their reasoning capacities than it should have. Especially when FSU has no leverage, no buyout money, and would be in debt put or exceeding any benefit gained by a new conference

Common sense would dictate that FSU shut their collective yap traps, save, and ask donors to build up a rights buy back fund to use when the GOR is insignificant and they can buy their way out. But common sense usually goes the way of the dodo when a keg is involved.


Just my take

I just don't get the financial incentive for FSU to move now.

With the expanded playoffs the ACC is going to payout about $45M a year through 2035-36. On top of that if FSU makes the playoffs they can get more $.

Even if FSU could get out of the ACC for free, they will get a half media share in the B1G or SEC until those conferences get a new TV deal. Those conferences aren't going to decrease their current member payouts to appease lowly FSU.

If FSU joins the SEC they get about $45M a year through 2033-34. Is it easier to compete against ACC teams making the same amount of money as your peers or is it easier to compete in the SEC when you are getting $45M and your peers are getting $75M? It makes no financial or competitive sense for FSU to join the SEC prior to 2032-33.

If FSU joins the B18 they get about $45M a year through 2029-30. So it makes no financial or competitive sense for FSU to join the B18 prior to 2028-29.

And all of the above is assuming FSU gets off for free. If they have to pay an exit free then they will be losing money until at least 2031-32 vs staying in the ACC. If they have to buy back or forfeit their TV rights then they will be worse off even longer. In that case, by the time they break even it will be 2036.

 

[HtownOrange]

I just don't get the financial incentive for FSU to move now.

With the expanded playoffs the ACC is going to payout about $45M a year through 2035-36. On top of that if FSU makes the playoffs they can get more $.

Even if FSU could get out of the ACC for free, they will get a half media share in the B1G or SEC until those conferences get a new TV deal. Those conferences aren't going to decrease their current member payouts to appease lowly FSU.

If FSU joins the SEC they get about $45M a year through 2033-34. Is it easier to compete against ACC teams making the same amount of money as your peers or is it easier to compete in the SEC when you are getting $45M and your peers are getting $75M? It makes no financial or competitive sense for FSU to join the SEC prior to 2032-33.

If FSU joins the B18 they get about $45M a year through 2029-30. So it makes no financial or competitive sense for FSU to join the B18 prior to 2028-29.

And all of the above is assuming FSU gets off for free. If they have to pay an exit free then they will be losing money until at least 2031-32 vs staying in the ACC. If they have to buy back or forfeit their TV rights then they will be worse off even longer. In that case, by the time they break even it will be 2036.

That Has been a part of my contention all along. Even if FSU gets a full share in the SEC or B1G, they must payback a loan or pay the ACC fee to get out, decreasing the value of the SEC/B1G payout.

At $300MM, FSU would owe $30MM+interest annually to pay off the debt in 10 years. This assumes a favorable negotiated settlement.

At $572MM, FSU woul owe $52.7MM +interest annually for 10 years. This assumes FSU's number to buy their way out now.

At $1 BB, FSU would owe $100MM +interest annually for 10 years. This would far exceed any money paid to them by the SEC or B1G. This assumes the ACC holds the line and demands the OU/UT multiplier (actually about 2.1).

FSU can reasonable save and raise a few hundred million and when the SEC and/or B1G renegotiate in the early 2030s buy their way out for much less while still making some money in the process.

All I can assume is that FSU honestly believes they have zero liability and are rolling the dice. We have hashed the likelihood of FSU succeeding to death and back and no one has figured out how to break the GOR, not Ut, OU, USC, UCLA, the B1G, SEC, ACC, private firms, etc., but FSU is going to school the world... My money is on the GOR right now, and I am not a gambler.

 

[SURules]

FSU is trying to try this via public opinion now it seems now rather than letting the lawyers and courts handle it. Interesting twist with the latest filing and seems like it is becoming the circus OJ case.

Edit.. If FSU thought they were able to win via actual contract law, I highly doubt they would have put forth what they did just now.

 

[Cheriehoop]

FSU is trying to try this via public opinion now it seems now rather than letting the lawyers and courts handle it. Interesting twist with the latest filing and seems like it is becoming the circus OJ case.

Edit.. If FSU thought they were able to win via actual contract law, I highly doubt they would have put forth what they did just now.

Why aren’t they suing their own University board of trustees plus their university president from back then? They approved and signed the GOR.

 

[SURules]

Why aren’t they suing their own UNIVERSITY board of trustees plus their university president from back then? They approved and signed the GOR.

Agreed!! Which is why FSU has no standing to win via actual courts.

 

[Van1144]

I don't have time to listen, but does it mention what their endgame is? Obviously they want to be in the SEC or B10. But, do they already have a spot, provided they get out?

ACC has to get 400-450 M iMO. Come in too low others walk, stay too high got a lot of nasty going on and hard for the conference to move forward. Plus legal fees! Only Clemson may follow at that price and that's a nice pay out to the others, then make an amendment to the GOR and either sign or you don't get your cut! There are still 2 western schools out there! Close to billion and the ACC can lick its wounds and rebuild.

 

[PeteCalvin]

I don't see why ESPN would opt out of the deal next year when they can extend it for another 10 years (maybe 11).

They are paying the ACC below market value today. They can extend this great deal for more than a decade. Why wouldn't they do it?

I could understand if the market for college sports had collapsed and ESPN was losing money showing ACC sports. But with the deal they have, this is clearly not the case.

But let's see what the impact of no renewing is.

If they let it end, the schools in the ACC will look to get a better deal elsewhere.

A few would get deals with the SEC and/or the B1G. ESPN would have to pay more for the same team if they go to the SEC. If they go to the B1G, they are lost. A disaster for them.

The rest would presumably go to the B12. I think that league is split with FOX so you lose significant control of your inventory and your costs are about the same (ESPN pays both about the same).

Then there is the matter of the ACCN. It delivers a lot of revenue (I believe over $150 million per year for ESPN). That just dies on the vine. Poof. That revenue stream disappears.

Been hesitant to post on this topic for awhile, but I have it from a very reliable source that the WWL is NOT supportive of FSU, in any way, with this lawsuit. They will not allow the ACC to dissolve, period. As Tomcat says, ESPN is paying way below the current market value for the ACC deal. They know they have a peach of a deal. Plus, if FSU wanted out, they could have done it two years ago. They didn’t. Now they are stuck, and the WWL will not let them out of the contract as structured. So it’s FSU against not only the ACC, but ESPN (and the current power structure of the GOR’s, CFP, etc). FOX made their power play with the BIG and “nudged” the collapse of the PAC12. They wanted in on the CFP desperately, and took advantage of the lack of a PAC12 deal. Didn’t take much for UCLA and USC to jump so a new deal would be structured with FOX at the table through the BIG. The dominoes fell from there. The BIG is happy where they are.

And as much as the SEC is ESPN’s prized pony, the ACC is also valuable to them, so there is no net positive in a deal allowing FSU to go to the SEC. It would degrade their other prized commodity, and as Tomcat also pointed out, the ACC makes them $$$. So the SEC is not going to bite the hand that feeds them and roll the carpet out for the Noles. The SEC and the ACC aren’t changing anytime soon. FSU is jammed up and in for a doozy. If they want out, they will have to pay every red cent of the $579 million (or whatever it is) and ESPN knows they don’t have the cash. And FOX has what they want with their BIG deal.

I don’t claim to be an expert on any of this, but I know my source is solid. Can things change? Certainly. One thing we know is *stuff* happens. Never trust the BIG. However, as far as the SEC, ACC and ESPN are concerned, this will be a massive uphill battle for FSU. They are screwed as things stand, regardless of what their overzealous fans think.

 

[HtownOrange]

Been hesitant to post on this topic for awhile, but I have it from a very reliable source that the WWL is NOT supportive of FSU, in any way, with this lawsuit. They will not allow the ACC to dissolve, period. As Tomcat says, ESPN is paying way below the current market value for the ACC deal. They know they have a peach of a deal. Plus, if FSU wanted out, they could have done it two years ago. They didn’t. Now they are stuck, and the WWL will not let them out of the contract as structured. So it’s FSU against not only the ACC, but ESPN (and the current power structure of the GOR’s, CFP, etc). FOX made their power play with the BIG and “nudged” the collapse of the PAC12. They wanted in on the CFP desperately, and took advantage of the lack of a PAC12 deal. Didn’t take much for UCLA and USC to jump so a new deal would be structured with FOX at the table through the BIG. The dominoes fell from there. The BIG is happy where they are.

And as much as the SEC is ESPN’s prized pony, the ACC is also valuable to them, so there is no net positive in a deal allowing FSU to go to the SEC. It would degrade their other prized commodity, and as Tomcat also pointed out, the ACC makes them $$$. So the SEC is not going to bite the hand that feeds them and roll the carpet out for the Noles. The SEC and the ACC aren’t changing anytime soon. FSU is jammed up and in for a doozy. If they want out, they will have to pay every red cent of the $579 million (or whatever it is) and ESPN knows they don’t have the cash. And FOX has what they want with their BIG deal.

I don’t claim to be an expert on any of this, but I know my source is solid. Can things change? Certainly. One thing we know is *stuff* happens. Never trust the BIG. However, as far as the SEC, ACC and ESPN are concerned, this will be a massive uphill battle for FSU. They are screwed as things stand, regardless of what their overzealous fans think.

Thanks for the info. Tom is right, many on here have agreed, ESPN is making money with the ACCN; there is no reason for ESPN to upset this apple cart.

Ultimately, so long as FSU has no money to withdraw and buy back their rights, everything else is just an exercise in futility. The ACC and each team understand this. ESPN understands this. FSU seems to be the only party that does not understand this point.

 

[jgeorge322]

Not even close to answering the question.

FSU is better off financially the next 10 years staying in the ACC if the exit fee costs anywhere near what the ACC is expecting.

The B1G's contract runs through 2029-30. The SEC's contract runs through 2033/34. Neither has an incentive to take on FSU before the start of new TV negotiations. And if they did take FSU, it would be at a reduced share.

If FSU takes out a loan it will take 10 years to pay off, maybe longer. The principal minus the conference payout won't be any more than they make now in the ACC. It will actually probably be less money. So FSU would need to compete with $40M against schools making $80M in their new conference. That is a huge disadvantage.

Or they can stay in the ACC and make playoff money more often than not.

I think my post was responsive. I think FSU is looking longer than 10 years out. What if its opportunity to get in Big10 or SEC is now and its worried in 10 years, the opportunity won't be there.

 

[jgeorge322]

Been hesitant to post on this topic for awhile, but I have it from a very reliable source that the WWL is NOT supportive of FSU, in any way, with this lawsuit. They will not allow the ACC to dissolve, period. As Tomcat says, ESPN is paying way below the current market value for the ACC deal. They know they have a peach of a deal. Plus, if FSU wanted out, they could have done it two years ago. They didn’t. Now they are stuck, and the WWL will not let them out of the contract as structured. So it’s FSU against not only the ACC, but ESPN (and the current power structure of the GOR’s, CFP, etc). FOX made their power play with the BIG and “nudged” the collapse of the PAC12. They wanted in on the CFP desperately, and took advantage of the lack of a PAC12 deal. Didn’t take much for UCLA and USC to jump so a new deal would be structured with FOX at the table through the BIG. The dominoes fell from there. The BIG is happy where they are.

And as much as the SEC is ESPN’s prized pony, the ACC is also valuable to them, so there is no net positive in a deal allowing FSU to go to the SEC. It would degrade their other prized commodity, and as Tomcat also pointed out, the ACC makes them $$$. So the SEC is not going to bite the hand that feeds them and roll the carpet out for the Noles. The SEC and the ACC aren’t changing anytime soon. FSU is jammed up and in for a doozy. If they want out, they will have to pay every red cent of the $579 million (or whatever it is) and ESPN knows they don’t have the cash. And FOX has what they want with their BIG deal.

I don’t claim to be an expert on any of this, but I know my source is solid. Can things change? Certainly. One thing we know is *stuff* happens. Never trust the BIG. However, as far as the SEC, ACC and ESPN are concerned, this will be a massive uphill battle for FSU. They are screwed as things stand, regardless of what their overzealous fans think.

This is a good point about it isn't just about ACC v. FSU. If I understand correctly, ACC sold the FSU's rights to ESPN. So, how do you settle that? Would ESPN have a consent right over any settlement? Would they be entitled to some cash?

 

[HtownOrange]

This is a good point about it isn't just about ACC v. FSU. If I understand correctly, ACC sold the FSU's rights to ESPN. So, how do you settle that? Would ESPN have a consent right over any settlement? Would they be entitled to some cash?

Yes, ESPN must be brought into the current action in some manner. No settlement can be made without ESPN’s approval as ESPN holds the broadcast rights for each ACC school.

FSU must walk a fine line with ESPN as ESPN is the partner for one of FSU’s two dream landing spots. The other dream landing spot for FSU is ESPN’s most ardent competitor. Carry out each scenario and it does not look good for FSU.

 

[elimunelson]

I just don't get the financial incentive for FSU to move now.

With the expanded playoffs the ACC is going to payout about $45M a year through 2035-36. On top of that if FSU makes the playoffs they can get more $.

Even if FSU could get out of the ACC for free, they will get a half media share in the B1G or SEC until those conferences get a new TV deal. Those conferences aren't going to decrease their current member payouts to appease lowly FSU.

If FSU joins the SEC they get about $45M a year through 2033-34. Is it easier to compete against ACC teams making the same amount of money as your peers or is it easier to compete in the SEC when you are getting $45M and your peers are getting $75M? It makes no financial or competitive sense for FSU to join the SEC prior to 2032-33.

If FSU joins the B18 they get about $45M a year through 2029-30. So it makes no financial or competitive sense for FSU to join the B18 prior to 2028-29.

And all of the above is assuming FSU gets off for free. If they have to pay an exit free then they will be losing money until at least 2031-32 vs staying in the ACC. If they have to buy back or forfeit their TV rights then they will be worse off even longer. In that case, by the time they break even it will be 2036.

They are banking on the entire system blowing up and reconstituting itself around the biggest brands. FSU feels like they are one of them. I think the blow up will end up blowing up the Rutgers, Iowas, Vanderbilts and those schools that provide zero revenue to whatever big 2 conference is created.

I do think as a fan of college football, i'm weirdly happy FSU is going on this kamikaze mission as it may just get us to the end game faster. I think a healthy Syracuse needs clarity no matter what tier we end up on.

EDIT: I hope we're lower tier end of day with like minded peer schools. I don't think we'll end up in a big 2 no matter what. I just hope more Syracuse like schools don't get the tap on the shoulder either and we can create a sustainable sandbox (that also involves a reconsituted big east for hoops)