goldsberry on waiters and carter williams

[Millhouse]

All guards from 2005-200 through 2014-2015 - worst to best overall %
MCW - .389, .294 overall .306
Cooney - .309, .375, .267 overall .329
Flynn - .348, .317 overall .333
Triche - .400, .333, .350, .288 overall .333
Waiters - .329 , .363 overall .348
Ennis - .353 overall, .353
McNamara - .357, .389, .340, .334 overall .354
Scoop - .278 ,.389, .357 & .379 overall .364
Andy - .326, .356, .366 & .407 overall .374
Devo - .376, .353 , .407 & .390 overall .378

Sure looks like for the most part, staying in college improves one's 3 point shooting. It mustn't be that important to NBA teams for guards to be highly coveted though.

Below are SU's forwards overall 3point % who shot at least ninety 3 point attempts in any year in the past 10 years. The other forwards didn't take nor make many. Lowest to high again.

Joseph - .331
Greene - .345
Nichols -.358
Southerland - .370
Johnson - .415

Ironically as our recruiting nationally improved after 2010 ,we haven't had any productive forward 3 point shooters to spread the offense. (bet BJ will be one his last 2 years after he redshirts).

if you put years on those guards and line them up with gmac's years as a coach here, it doesn't look so hot. it might just be bad luck that he was stuck with cooney and MCW. throw in triche's senior year

 

[Melancer46]

Good question...however, people need to stop the bandwagon idea that Dion is not a good defender. The reason he gets the playing time he does is for his defense.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/t...which-players-are-the-next-free-agent-steals/

Search Waiters. The bit about him is towards the bottom. Basically, Lowe says he's pretty good in isolation defense when he wants to be, but if you have any ball movement whatsoever, he gets completely lost and basically singlehandedly ruins the entire team's defense.

 

[Col. Bleep]

This can all be traced back to Boeheim's failure to use Elvir Ovcina as the 2 guard.

 

[Knicks411]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/t...which-players-are-the-next-free-agent-steals/

Search Waiters. The bit about him is towards the bottom. Basically, Lowe says he's pretty good in isolation defense when he wants to be, but if you have any ball movement whatsoever, he gets completely lost and basically singlehandedly ruins the entire team's defense.

So he's basically Andrea Bargnani at the guard spot.

 

[Cheriehoop]

if you put years on those guards and line them up with gmac's years as a coach here, it doesn't look so hot. it might just be bad luck that he was stuck with cooney and MCW. throw in triche's senior year

Really, really stretching.. I hope you aren't trying to start with an agenda and manipulating and choosing only the players' statistics that help that agenda. Why no mention of Dion Waiters (.363 in 2011-2012), Ennis (in 2014 .353), Scoop Jardine (.379 also in 2011-2012)? He's coached 3 guards who left early for the NBA's first round in 3 consecutive years - bad GMac.

 

[Millhouse]

Really, really stretching.. I hope you aren't trying to start with an agenda and manipulating and choosing only the players' statistics that help that agenda. Why no mention of Dion Waiters (.363 in 2011-2012), Ennis (in 2014 .353), Scoop Jardine (.379 also in 2011-2012)? He's coached 3 guards who left early for the NBA's first round in 3 consecutive years - bad GMac.

i'm willing to bet that if you took all the 3 pt shots taken by guards at SU over during gmac's time here, it's below average despite those three guys. considering how boeheim has his pick of lots of players, it's a puzzle.

jarhead approves of your pic though

 

[Millhouse]

since gmac graduated , our guards have shot under 34% 5 times. 34.33% was the average this year. guards avgd 34.36% since gmac graduated

i think SU should be better than average in pretty much every category. and we shouldn't have guards 3p% dipping to 28% and 31% ever

 

[TheCusian]

since gmac graduated , our guards have shot under 34% 5 times. 34.33% was the average this year. guards avgd 34.36% since gmac graduated i think SU should be better than average in pretty much every category. and we shouldn't have guards 3p% dipping to 28% and 31% ever

JB wants rangy guards at the expense of shooting. Shooters go cold, you don't lose length.

 

[Millhouse]

JB wants rangy guards at the expense of shooting. Shooters go cold, you don't lose length.

last 5 years, the guards shoot 32.7%

that's cherry picking out 2009-10 where they were 41%

but 5 years at sub 33% combined is worrisome

 

[Cheriehoop]

i'm willing to bet that if you took all the 3 pt shots taken by guards at SU over during gmac's time here, it's below average despite those three guys. considering how boeheim has his pick of lots of players, it's a puzzle.

jarhead approves of your pic though

Yikes. Hope Jarhead doesn't - it's a guy.

Gbinje has also really improved his 3 point shooting to .392 despite his reluctance to take them, hope you didn't forget him. At least he attempted one every 8 and 1/2 minutes this year instead of one every 11 and a half minutes his sophomore year. He's been coached by GMac too. Cooney's poor percentage and Trich's drop his senior year seems more the aberration than the norm.

It sure would take pressure off the guards if we had a long range threat at forward - even CJ helped by being a mid range threat. We lost our only threat to really spread the court offensively down low in 2013 when Southerland graduated. Without proficient outside shooting we invite teams to slough off and double any proven scorer.

 

[Millhouse]

Yikes. Hope Jarhead doesn't - it's a guy.

Gbinje has also really improved his 3 point shooting to .392 despite his reluctance to take them, hope you didn't forget him. At least he attempted one every 8 and 1/2 minutes this year instead of one every 11 and a half minutes his sophomore year. He's been coached by GMac too. Cooney's poor percentage and Trich's drop his senior year seems more the aberration than the norm.

It sure would take pressure off the guards if we had a long range threat at forward - even CJ helped by being a mid range threat. We lost our only threat to really spread the court offensively down low in 2013 when Southerland graduated. Without proficient outside shooting we invite teams to slough off and double any proven scorer.

made a point of including gbinije even though the sports reference page had him listed at forward

 

[moqui]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/t...which-players-are-the-next-free-agent-steals/

Search Waiters. The bit about him is towards the bottom. Basically, Lowe says he's pretty good in isolation defense when he wants to be, but if you have any ball movement whatsoever, he gets completely lost and basically singlehandedly ruins the entire team's defense.

those Biyombo gifs are hilarious

 

[two3zone]

You can't teach shooting at this level. You could maybe make a tweak in mechanics here or there, but the influence would be no more than maybe a percent or two. The only time any coach would be able to significantly improve a player's shooting is if the player just started playing basketball and didn't have the muscle memory built up. This isn't the case with the guards we recruit, or any position other than Center, typically.

Idk who gave you the idea that a shooting coach would or could make a big difference.

 

[Brooky03]

You know something I don't know? Grant went from not shooting 3's to shooting 33% in the NBA. He was 40% from deep in limited attempts Freshman year of college, so it was never that he couldn't shoot 3's.

 

[two3zone]

You know something I don't know? Grant went from not shooting 3's to shooting 33% in the NBA. He was 40% from deep in limited attempts Freshman year of college, so it was never that he couldn't shoot 3's.

He took 15 his freshman year and then went 0-5 his second year. You don't think he could start shooting better?

 

[Brooky03]

He took 15 his freshman year and then went 0-5 his second year. You don't think he could start shooting better?

I just don't see your point. Sticking to the topic of coaches improving shooting, I'm not convinced a player who could should 3's relatively well in college but elected or was told not to is showing much improvement by shooting 33% in the NBA.

 

[Melancer46]

I just don't see your point. Sticking to the topic of coaches improving shooting, I'm not convinced a player who could should 3's relatively well in college but elected or was told not to is showing much improvement by shooting 33% in the NBA.

I don't think he could shoot in college. I think he got lucky a couple times his freshman year. Even if we're talking about mid-range jumpers, he was more likely to break the backboard than he was to make the shot. He's made huge strides there, especially since we're talking about the NBA 3 point line.

 

[Brooky03]

I don't think he could shoot in college. I think he got lucky a couple times his freshman year. Even if we're talking about mid-range jumpers, he was more likely to break the backboard than he was to make the shot. He's made huge strides there, especially since we're talking about the NBA 3 point line.

Maybe. I just don't see any significant (or at all) change in his form from college that would indicate a NBA shooting coach got ahold of him and made changes that would account for his mild 3 point success in the NBA. I think it's directly a result of having a green light to do whatever he wants on the court because there aren't any other options on the team. Confidence is a big factor in success. If him shooting 3's was a part of our gameplan in college, I wouldn't be shocked if he stayed around his career average with more attempts.

Players also get a lot more time to work on their game individually in professional ball that they don't have in college. Repetition doesn't hurt.

 

[RoatanCuse]

Some excellent points in this thread. Eg. What is Gerry teaching our guards? Quickness? Hell, this past season I watch opposing guards almost drive to the hoop at will vs. Joseph and Cooney. They lack lateral quickness. Get out the old tires and do the football drill, for gosh sakes. Eg. Another poster mentions consistent shooting, which other teams have and our guards lack. Just who brings these guys in? I like Gerry, and we owe him big time for our NC, but didn't he bring in Cooney? Isn't he responsible for our guard's development? I'll give him just one more year , then I'll transfer him to Lasalle.