Good Ol Roy says No Sanctions for hoops, plus he feels sad...

[andyw715]

http://www.theonion.com/article/frustrated-unc-student-too-busy-studying-players-t-52684

 

[andyw715]

So is the NCAA looking into the LD/ADD/ADHD/Adderall thing at all @ UNC ? Or will that be the next investigation?

 

[RowdyOrange]

So is the NCAA looking into the LD/ADD/ADHD/Adderall thing at all @ UNC ? Or will that be the next investigation?

There are theories, there are conspiracy theories, and then there is the adderral theory. As a Syracuse alum living in North Carolina, I have been following this situation since it broke. There is nothing there. I actually saw an NC State fan post on Facebook that he believed that Roy was a drug cartel leader and that he was using his team's charter jet to flood the streets with heroin. No lie. Some of these people are insane.

As far as the academic scandal is concerned, I don't think that the NCAA will punish North Carolina, and I don't believe that the NCAA should punish North Carolina. Too many of their rival fans are throwing bricks in glass houses. Does anyone really believe that Duke's "scholar-athletes" stay eligible all by themselves? And let's not get started on NC State...that program never should have been resurrected after it nuked itself in the early 90s.

But, I have been wrong in the past. Time will tell.

 

[RowdyOrange]

Agree 100%. That's the issue, NOT whether the classes were offered to both athletes / not-athletes.

If a bunch of athletes took non-classes to boost their GPA, it is a BIG problem for UNC. No matter how Emmert attempted to originally categorize their malfeasance.

The problem with that argument, and what UNC will argue (in court, if it has to), is that the classes were real, they required work, and they were available to everybody-athletes and non-athletes alike. Of course, the person grading the papers was a glorified secretary and should never have been in that position, but as a student, once you turn in your essay, you don't know (or care) who is grading it, particularly if you get a high grade.

 

[Toga]

There are theories, there are conspiracy theories, and then there is the adderral theory. As a Syracuse alum living in North Carolina, I have been following this situation since it broke. There is nothing there. I actually saw an NC State fan post on Facebook that he believed that Roy was a drug cartel leader and that he was using his team's charter jet to flood the streets with heroin. No lie. Some of these people are insane.

As far as the academic scandal is concerned, I don't think that the NCAA will punish North Carolina, and I don't believe that the NCAA should punish North Carolina. Too many of their rival fans are throwing bricks in glass houses. Does anyone really believe that Duke's "scholar-athletes" stay eligible all by themselves? And let's not get started on NC State...that program never should have been resurrected after it nuked itself in the early 90s.

But, I have been wrong in the past. Time will tell.

But the difference is that they have the goods on Carolina. Rather, the NCAA was provided the goods on Carolina. No, actually the NCAA was forced to re-look at the goods provided them on Carolina.

 

[pearl31]

But the difference is that they have the goods on Carolina. Rather, the NCAA was provided the goods on Carolina. No, actually the NCAA was forced to re-look at the goods provided them on Carolina.

they were provided the goods that forced them to make it look like they were seriously considering punishing UNC

 

[RowdyOrange]

But the difference is that they have the goods on Carolina. Rather, the NCAA was provided the goods on Carolina. No, actually the NCAA was forced to re-look at the goods provided them on Carolina.

It puts the NCAA in a tough position. Everyone knows that these things(and by "things" I mean various schemes to keep players who otherwise wouldn't be admitted to a given university academically and athletically eligible) go on all over the country. The NCAA knows this. I don't think the NCAA wants to know this. I think if there is a way out for the NCAA, they will take it.

 

[RF2044]

The problem with that argument, and what UNC will argue (in court, if it has to), is that the classes were real, they required work, and they were available to everybody-athletes and non-athletes alike. Of course, the person grading the papers was a glorified secretary and should never have been in that position, but as a student, once you turn in your essay, you don't know (or care) who is grading it, particularly if you get a high grade.

The problem with that defense [my opinion only] is that we already have evidence of players not having to attend, not having to turn in papers and / or turning in heavily plagarized work downloaded from the internet and still getting "A" grades. That constitutes "work" only in the most barely applicable sense of the word.

And these grades artificially inflated the GPAs of countless athletes across numerous sports, perhaps in some cases keeping them eligible when they shouldn't have been. I'm not sure that it will be easy to put the genie back in the bottle once the full data comes to light in that regard. I agree 100% with you that Carolina feels that this is no big deal, and that the NCAA would prefer to ignore it. But I don't believe that an informed sports media will allow that to happen. Not after they forcibly "encouraged" the NCAA to get re-involved after their first cursory examination was determined to be grossly insufficient.

 

[Toga]

The problem with that defense [my opinion only] is that we already have evidence of players not having to attend, not having to turn in papers and / or turning in heavily plagarized work downloaded from the internet and still getting "A" grades. That constitutes "work" only in the most barely applicable sense of the word.

And these grades artificially inflated the GPAs of countless athletes across numerous sports, perhaps in some cases keeping them eligible when they shouldn't have been. I'm not sure that it will be easy to put the genie back in the bottle once the full data comes to light in that regard. I agree 100% with you that Carolina feels that this is no big deal, and that the NCAA would prefer to ignore it. But I don't believe that an informed sports media will allow that to happen. Not after they forcibly "encouraged" the NCAA to get re-involved after their first cursory examination was determined to be grossly insufficient.

It's not exactly Ivy League now is it Joel?

 

[pearl31]

The problem with that defense [my opinion only] is that we already have evidence of players not having to attend, not having to turn in papers and / or turning in heavily plagarized work downloaded from the internet and still getting "A" grades. That constitutes "work" only in the most barely applicable context.

Does there not need to be proof that men's basketball staffers: a) knew (and acknowledged knowing) that these were fake classes, and b) steered men's basketball players into those classes after having that knowledge?
As far as I'm aware, there is not such proof - just sentiments like, "Oh come on - how could they not have known?!" and "All you need to do is connect the dots"

 

[RF2044]

Does there not need to be proof that men's basketball staffers: a) knew (and acknowledged knowing) that these were fake classes, and b) steered men's basketball players into those classes after having that knowledge?
As far as I'm aware, there is not such proof - just sentiments like, "Oh come on - how could they not have known?!" and "All you need to do is connect the dots"

Does there need to be? Did our men's basketball staffers know that the kids were getting paid by the Utica YMCA, for example?

That could certainly strengthen or lessen how culpable the coaching staff was in the malfeasance, but it doesn't excuse / disqualify that wrongdoing occurred.

 

[TheCusian]

There are theories, there are conspiracy theories, and then there is the adderral theory. As a Syracuse alum living in North Carolina, I have been following this situation since it broke. There is nothing there. I actually saw an NC State fan post on Facebook that he believed that Roy was a drug cartel leader and that he was using his team's charter jet to flood the streets with heroin. No lie. Some of these people are insane. As far as the academic scandal is concerned, I don't think that the NCAA will punish North Carolina, and I don't believe that the NCAA should punish North Carolina. Too many of their rival fans are throwing bricks in glass houses. Does anyone really believe that Duke's "scholar-athletes" stay eligible all by themselves? And let's not get started on NC State...that program never should have been resurrected after it nuked itself in the early 90s. But, I have been wrong in the past. Time will tell.

Ahh - the old "everyone is doing it" defense. UNC got caught, deserves punishment. If they don't it will be because of the ineptitude and/or toothlessness of the NCAA.

 

[Ward]

The problem with that argument, and what UNC will argue (in court, if it has to), is that the classes were real, they required work, and they were available to everybody-athletes and non-athletes alike. Of course, the person grading the papers was a glorified secretary and should never have been in that position, but as a student, once you turn in your essay, you don't know (or care) who is grading it, particularly if you get a high grade.

Possibly, but recent findings show that student-athletes were allowed to exceed the 12 hour limit in some of these independent study credits towards their degrees that non-athletes were not allowed to do. That's an impermissible benefit whether they choose to ignore the academic fraud or not.

 

[pearl31]

Does there need to be? Did our men's basketball staffers know that the kids were getting paid by the Utica YMCA, for example?

That could certainly strengthen or lessen how culpable the coaching staff was in the malfeasance, but it doesn't excuse / disqualify that wrongdoing occurred.

not sure on the Y stuff but there was certainly proof that Kissel (staffer) overstepped his bounds and in so doing was providing impermissible benefit - which brought lack of oversight penalty to JB as the HC...
As far as I'm aware there is no such direct proof of staffers at NC doing that - their case is murky, with all signs pointing to academic fraud/impermissible benefits but nothing (that I'm aware of) to actually nail them

 

[RF2044]

not sure on the Y stuff but there was certainly proof that Kissel (staffer) overstepped his bounds and in so doing was providing impermissible benefit - which brought lack of oversight penalty to JB as the HC...
As far as I'm aware there is no such direct proof of staffers at NC doing that - their case is murky, with all signs pointing to academic fraud/impermissible benefits but nothing (that I'm aware of) to actually nail them

But how is that same logic not applicable to UNC? A rogue academic department not following the rules, overstepping their bound and providing impermissible academic benefits--how would that not lead to lack of oversight penalties to the UNC basketball program?

Its not like our staff was steering kids to the Y, just like UNC coaches probably [emphasis on "probably"] were not steering their kids into dummy classes. But it happened in both cases. In our situation, our coaching staff was held accountable, despite their lack of direct involvement. At UNC?

 

[pearl31]

But how is that same logic not applicable to UNC? A rogue academic department not following the rules, overstepping their bound and providing impermissible academic benefits--how would that not lead to lack of oversight penalties to the UNC basketball program?

Its not like our staff was steering kids to the Y, just like UNC coaches probably [emphasis on "probably"] were not steering their kids into dummy classes. But it happened in both cases. In our situation, our coaching staff was held accountable, despite their lack of direct involvement. At UNC?

Kissel was found to have done stuff. He was on the basketball staff. No unc staffers (that I'm aware of) have been found to have actually done anything.

 

[RF2044]

Kissel was found to have done stuff. He was on the basketball staff. No unc staffers (that I'm aware of) have been found to have actually done anything.

Kissel also lost his job. And let's keep in perspective that all he did was add footnotes to a paper. That was the general extent of our academic improprieties.

UNC's infractions are exponentially worse than that.

 

[pearl31]

UNC's infractions are exponentially worse than that.

Clearly they are - but (as far as I'm aware) there is not a direct connection to the men's basketball staff like there was with us

 

[NYCSUGrad]

It puts the NCAA in a tough position. Everyone knows that these things(and by "things" I mean various schemes to keep players who otherwise wouldn't be admitted to a given university academically and athletically eligible) go on all over the country. The NCAA knows this. I don't think the NCAA wants to know this. I think if there is a way out for the NCAA, they will take it.

They sure as sheeeeiiiitttt didn't in SU's case, especially regarding the academics. FFS, WE suspended Fab Melo TWICE in a season because of the academics, including the paper he got inappropriate help with, yet the NCAA punished us a THIRD time, including possibly taking wins away from JB for that period (not sure of exactly when and what the wins were stripped for). So it may very well turn out that the NCAA does little or nothing to NC, considering it could be argued they deserve up to the death penalty, but they sure didn't look the other way in our far less egregious case. And yes, I'm including the YMCA payments, which no one claimed were no show jobs, and the not calling the parents of the kids who smoked dope.

 

[TheCusian]

It could be that the infractions are too big for the NCAA to handle. If you're going to cheat, go with the "too big to fail" method.

 

[RowdyOrange]

Possibly, but recent findings show that student-athletes were allowed to exceed the 12 hour limit in some of these independent study credits towards their degrees that non-athletes were not allowed to do. That's an impermissible benefit whether they choose to ignore the academic fraud or not.

Not exactly. The limit applies to graduation, not eligibility. A student could take 30 hours of independent study courses and all 30 hours would count towards their GPA, but only 12 hours would count towards graduation. The limit only appears to be an issue when determining eligibility for graduation, not academic eligibility or athletic eligibility.

 

[Ward]

Not exactly. The limit applies to graduation, not eligibility. A student could take 30 hours of independent study courses and all 30 hours would count towards their GPA, but only 12 hours would count towards graduation. The limit only appears to be an issue when determining eligibility for graduation, not academic eligibility or athletic eligibility.

Yes, I wasn't arguing that it was an eligibility issue. I was saying that the athletes are being given a benefit due to their status as a student-athlete by being allowed a degree from the institution without adhering to standards and limits in place that other non-student-athletes must follow. That is an impermissible benefit if you are being given something solely based on your status as a student-athlete and they were being given a different set of rules.

Ironically enough, in the modern NCAA that preaches amateurism and a scholarship to earn a degree is invaluable then technically in the NCAA's eyes UNC gave their athletes the greatest impermissible benefit of them all, a diploma.

 

[Sudano]

There are theories, there are conspiracy theories, and then there is the adderral theory. As a Syracuse alum living in North Carolina, I have been following this situation since it broke. There is nothing there. I actually saw an NC State fan post on Facebook that he believed that Roy was a drug cartel leader and that he was using his team's charter jet to flood the streets with heroin. No lie. Some of these people are insane.

As far as the academic scandal is concerned, I don't think that the NCAA will punish North Carolina, and I don't believe that the NCAA should punish North Carolina. Too many of their rival fans are throwing bricks in glass houses. Does anyone really believe that Duke's "scholar-athletes" stay eligible all by themselves? And let's not get started on NC State...that program never should have been resurrected after it nuked itself in the early 90s.

But, I have been wrong in the past. Time will tell.

Give back your degree. This has no basis in higher educational critical thought.

 

[shantydaze]

Not exactly. The limit applies to graduation, not eligibility. A student could take 30 hours of independent study courses and all 30 hours would count towards their GPA, but only 12 hours would count towards graduation. The limit only appears to be an issue when determining eligibility for graduation, not academic eligibility or athletic eligibility.

Depends on the school. I could take classes at my undergraduate school that did not count towards graduation (i.e. phy ed classes). These classes would not have counted towards my GPA. Not sure the rules (if any) UNC had.

Don't all athletic departments have tutors for player as a legal way to help athletes pass classes? If so, wouldn't the tutors, paid by the athletic department, have knowledge of the non-existent work required for the classes?

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Depends on the school. I could take classes at my undergraduate school that did not count towards graduation (i.e. phy ed classes). These classes would not have counted towards my GPA. Not sure the rules (if any) UNC had.

Don't all athletic departments have tutors for player as a legal way to help athletes pass classes? If so, wouldn't the tutors, paid by the athletic department, have knowledge of the non-existent work required for the classes?

I know I jacked up my credits at SU not with phys ed classes but by being in the chorus most semesters. That added probably five or six credits. But it wasn't a graded course, so no, it wouldn't have counted for GPA. But I think it did towards the 120 credits for the degree. The credits the athletes get for being on a team certainly must count toward what's needed to graduate, even if there is not a grade per se.