Gross

[CU44SE]

I was going to post this in another thread, but I thought maybe it deserved its own thread because of the recent moves by the new Chancellor. Its clear that he is making major cost cutting moves and as some insiders have said, its looking more and more like Gross is gone. I have been a major Gross supporter, but if the Chancellor is really cutting teachers and academic staff, its hard to image Gross staying on with the rumored athletic spending going on. In the past I couldn't imagine losing Gross, but thinking about it last night I think it would be for the best. Gross did his job here excellently; he set us up for the future and got us into the ACC (even though some believed we would be there regardless of him). He truly had big ideas and big plans for this University and the NYC campaign (NY College team) was genius, it was a way of getting NYC households familiar with Syracuse University. Athletic programs thrived under him, more then ever before. And maybe he had to overspend to support them, but this program as a whole is in much better shape now then ever before. As I said, Gross was a big idea man, but this lead to him being out of touch with Syracuse in general. I believe with all the resources and money he spent for the NYC campaign, he kind of forgot about and became out of touch to the locals who support the team on a daily basis. I believe marketing and promotion needs to also come back to the local level. Obviously NYC is the marketing capital of the world but whey can't we do that around the Syracuse area as well? Buffalo is 2 hours away and is a pro sports town, no doubt. But in the last Census, Syracuse's Metropolitian area (3 counties in CNY, not counting the rochester, watertown, binghamton, Utica, or albany areas) had a population of 662,577 people. It would take 7.5% of this population to fill the Carrier Dome.

2010 Census

Syracuse metropolitan area- 662,577
Rochester metropolitan area- 1,054,323
Watertown- 27,000 (included due to fort drum soldiers)
Binghamton- 251,725
Utica metropolitan area- 299,397
Albany metropolitan area- 870,716 (58 largest MSA)

These are all very short distances to drive for a premiere Div 1 college team. Why are these places not marketed the same as NYC. These are your customers, people that are going to fill up the dome and make a great home field/court advantage. I understand why NYC is promoted, but these areas should not be forgotten and they should be promoted just as hard if not harder because these are the people that will or could be filling up your venue on a weekly basis. Just my 2 cents.

 

[AAM62]

Even if you improved marketing of the football program locally and kept the season ticket prices low (they are dirt cheap. Dont care how much you earn), the average cny fan is skeptical and crabby. I wish the dome was closer to nyc...the attendance wouldnt be so damn pitiful. its almost like the average cny fan wants to see a trip to the national championship game before supporting the team. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Full_Rebar]

I'll debate the "genius" of the NYC campaign since I don't know that SU has really seen any tangible benefits as a result, but overall Gross did some things to help enhance the profile of SU. The next AD will have some challenges in maintaining the overall momentum of the department while getting the financial picture settled, but a more responsible financial person will also have the increased ACC revenue to work with moving forward.

People who live outside of CNY sure find it easy to criticize "locals" for a lack of support, but SU has done little to make many of these fans seem appreciated, and it will take time (and winning) to bring them back into the fold. I know many on this board have season tickets and live 4 or more hours away, but there has been little done to really rally the community around football.

You can blame IMG and SUAD for failing to capitalize. SU has a great relationship with Galaxy Communications and yet there isn't much on the radio other than the Upon Further Review and coaches shows. Until the Syracuse Media Group made the shift to an online focus, you didn't get a lot of student-athlete profiles. You want to get a community to care about a team- let them know about the stories of the people on the teams. Shafer gets that and I think it's why he gets out to luncheons and other events to sell people on the players. I don't hear about Gross or others on his staff making the effort to engage in CNY in a meaningful manner and that's been a big mistake.

 

[Toga]

I agree with concentrating marketing in proximate upstate areas rather than NYC. However, I think that the past NYC marketing effort had some (non-quantifiable) positive impact on positioning SU for ACC membership. That having been accomplished - it's time to concentrate more on upstate marketing.

 

[SUinNYC]

I'll debate the "genius" of the NYC campaign since I don't know that SU has really seen any tangible benefits as a result

I would argue that this is a very tangible benefit.

 

[anglerman]

Look to me it's pretty simple regarding the NYC campaign. Why would you want to spend advertising money 270 miles away from campus? NYC doesn't care about Syracuse football. They have two NFL teams. They don't care much about college athletics period let alone a school 4-5 hour drive away.

It was far from genius it was more like stupidity. Spend the money within 2 hours of campus on people who might actually come to the games To me the athletic department has been a disorganized mess for years. I think replacing Gross can only be in the best interest of the university

 

[omniorange]

Look to me it's pretty simple regarding the NYC campaign. Why would you want to spend advertising money 270 miles away from campus? NYC doesn't care about Syracuse football. They have two NFL teams. They don't care much about college athletics period let alone a school 4-5 hour drive away.

It was far from genius it was more like stupidity. Spend the money within 2 hours of campus on people who might actually come to the games To me the athletic department has been a disorganized mess for years. I think replacing Gross can only be in the best interest of the university

I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think this new chancellor is either not very knowledgeable about the athletics landscape or just isn't into it or both. I am afraid he will take the Shalala approach that now that we are in the ACC we are good to go and time to cut back.

I am starting to think we'll be Wake in a decade.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[jimsonjunction]

I'm an SU alum who lives in NYC and I do enjoy the increased presence...the ads at Yankee Stadium, on taxi cabs, etc. Makes me feel closer than 4 hours away. I run into SU fans all the time through work, social events and just on the streets wearing SU gear. It does feel like a community within the city.

Would I tune into every game regardless? Yes. Is it frivolous spending? I have no idea. Maybe it would be smarter to focus more energy on the areas you've mentioned. If it helps attendance I'd be all for it. But I don't agree with the idea that our NYC push has been a waste of resources. Just my 2 cents.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Look to me it's pretty simple regarding the NYC campaign. Why would you want to spend advertising money 270 miles away from campus? NYC doesn't care about Syracuse football. They have two NFL teams. They don't care much about college athletics period let alone a school 4-5 hour drive away.

It was far from genius it was more like stupidity. Spend the money within 2 hours of campus on people who might actually come to the games To me the athletic department has been a disorganized mess for years. I think replacing Gross can only be in the best interest of the university

How many SU Alumni live in the NYC area?

How many of those SU Alumni in NYC have checkbooks?

 

[Scooch]

People who live outside of CNY sure find it easy to criticize "locals" for a lack of support, but SU has done little to make many of these fans seem appreciated, and it will take time (and winning) to bring them back into the fold. I know many on this board have season tickets and live 4 or more hours away, but there has been little done to really rally the community around football.

Sincere question... what does SU need to do to make a fan feel "appreciated"? I read this kind of complaint constantly, and I honestly have no idea what it means.

I grew up in Massachusetts in the 80s/90s and most of the ownership of the teams I followed were practically hostile towards their own fan base. The venues were lousy (Fenway Park was cramped, aging and didn't have barely a dime invested in its maintenance after the mid-70s; Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium was a dump from the day it opened; the old Boston Garden was a hot, rat-infested hellhole), ticket prices were no bargain, parking and traffic were miserable, and the extent of each team's "marketing" involved giving out free team schedule calendars at the local Stop & Shop.

SU football has not been a great product, so I don't lob jabs at the local fan base the way some here do. But tickets are dirt cheap, parking & traffic is really not bad if you have a perspective that extends beyond CNY, and there seems to have been some effort made to make the experience more family friendly.

I really would like to understand what SU needs to do to "appreciate" its football fans more.

 

[rrlbees]

Even if you improved marketing of the football program locally and kept the season ticket prices low (they are dirt cheap. Dont care how much you earn), the average cny fan is skeptical and crabby. I wish the dome was closer to nyc...the attendance wouldnt be so damn pitiful. its almost like the average cny fan wants to see a trip to the national championship game before supporting the team. Just my 2 cents.

Closer to NYC wouldn't increase attendance. Why would it? While attendance isn't great, it's still mainly the CNY area. Closer to NYC only means less CNY and depending in how close to NYC may dry up most of the CNY attendance. NYC doesn't support the program the way it was hoped when we do play there and NJ.

 

[rrlbees]

Sincere question... what does SU need to do to make a fan feel "appreciated"? I read this kind of complaint constantly, and I honestly have no idea what it means. I grew up in Massachusetts in the 80s/90s and most of the ownership of the teams I followed were practically hostile towards their own fan base. The venues were lousy (Fenway Park was a cramped, aging and didn't have barely a dime invested in its maintenance after the mid-70s; Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium was a dump from the day it opened; the old Boston Garden was a hot, rat-infested hellhole), ticket prices were no bargain, parking and traffic was miserable, and the extent of "marketing" involved little free team schedule calendars at the local Stop & Shop. SU football has not been a great product, so I don't lob jabs at the local fan base the way some here do. But tickets are dirt cheap, parking & traffic is really not bad if you have a perspective that extends beyond CNY, and there seems to have been some effort made to make the experience more family friendly. I really would like to understand what SU needs to do to "appreciate" its football fans more.

Not play it's biggest games in NJ.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Even if you improved marketing of the football program locally and kept the season ticket prices low (they are dirt cheap. Dont care how much you earn), the average cny fan is skeptical and crabby. I wish the dome was closer to nyc...the attendance wouldnt be so damn pitiful. its almost like the average cny fan wants to see a trip to the national championship game before supporting the team. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah all those NYC fans have sure turned out for the Metlife games...

 

[Toga]

Sincere question... what does SU need to do to make a fan feel "appreciated"? I read this kind of complaint constantly, and I honestly have no idea what it means.

I grew up in Massachusetts in the 80s/90s and most of the ownership of the teams I followed were practically hostile towards their own fan base. The venues were lousy (Fenway Park was a cramped, aging and didn't have barely a dime invested in its maintenance after the mid-70s; Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium was a dump from the day it opened; the old Boston Garden was a hot, rat-infested hellhole), ticket prices were no bargain, parking and traffic was miserable, and the extent of "marketing" involved little free team schedule calendars at the local Stop & Shop.

SU football has not been a great product, so I don't lob jabs at the local fan base the way some here do. But tickets are dirt cheap, parking & traffic is really not bad if you have a perspective that extends beyond CNY, and there seems to have been some effort made to make the experience more family friendly.

I really would like to understand what SU needs to do to "appreciate" its football fans more.

National titles
Free tickets
Free door to door transportation

 

[PhatOrange]

People who live outside of CNY sure find it easy to criticize "locals" for a lack of support, but SU has done little to make many of these fans seem appreciated, and it will take time (and winning) to bring them back into the fold. I know many on this board have season tickets and live 4 or more hours away, but there has been little done to really rally the community around football.

I see this a lot and I’ve never understood the line of thinking. Why does the University owe the fans anything and why do the fans owe the University anything? I bleed Orange and I buy my tickets and my merchandise because of my love for Cuse sports, but I don’t need to feel appreciated. I do it cause I love it. They don’t owe me anything.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Scooch- I think if you look at what the owners of those Boston teams have done in the last 10 years would tell you what SU could do to appreciate local fans. It goes beyond the facility improvements and into the "fan experience". From a distance, it sure seems as though the Patriots and Red Sox make it a priority for the team (players,coaches, staff) to be integrated in the community. From community outreach, opening the stadiums for non-game events, appearances at youth sports events, it's clear that the message is one of mutual support.

Start with the Meadowlands games being taken from the Dome meaning a gap in marquee opponents, add to that a lack of an added value beyond the game- what does SU offer to get people to go to games.

I'll use the McNabb ceremony as a great example. Best player in the last 25 years and he got a 2 minute video and rushed halftime ceremony in front of a half-empty Dome. There was no special promotion- hey why not a McNabb bobblehead, or something as a giveaway?

Obviously Gross wanted to build a modern arena, and there have been some nice improvements to the Dome to enhance the game-day experience, but I don't think SU has a good grasp on making games into events (outside of the hoops games which have sold themselves).

 

[CousCuse]

I was going to post this in another thread, but I thought maybe it deserved its own thread because of the recent moves by the new Chancellor. Its clear that he is making major cost cutting moves and as some insiders have said, its looking more and more like Gross is gone. I have been a major Gross supporter, but if the Chancellor is really cutting teachers and academic staff, its hard to image Gross staying on with the rumored athletic spending going on. In the past I couldn't imagine losing Gross, but thinking about it last night I think it would be for the best. Gross did his job here excellently; he set us up for the future and got us into the ACC (even though some believed we would be there regardless of him). He truly had big ideas and big plans for this University and the NYC campaign (NY College team) was genius, it was a way of getting NYC households familiar with Syracuse University. Athletic programs thrived under him, more then ever before. And maybe he had to overspend to support them, but this program as a whole is in much better shape now then ever before. As I said, Gross was a big idea man, but this lead to him being out of touch with Syracuse in general. I believe with all the resources and money he spent for the NYC campaign, he kind of forgot about and became out of touch to the locals who support the team on a daily basis. I believe marketing and promotion needs to also come back to the local level. Obviously NYC is the marketing capital of the world but whey can't we do that around the Syracuse area as well? Buffalo is 2 hours away and is a pro sports town, no doubt. But in the last Census, Syracuse's Metropolitian area (3 counties in CNY, not counting the rochester, watertown, binghamton, or albany areas) had a population of 662,577 people. It would take 7.5% of this population to fill the Carrier Dome.

2010 Census

Syracuse metropolitan area- 662,577
Rochester metropolitan area- 1,054,323
Watertown- 27,000 (included due to fort drum soldiers)
Binghamton- 251,725
Albany metropolitan area- 870,716 (58 largest MSA)

These are all very short distances to drive for a premiere Div 1 college team. Why are these places not marketed the same as NYC. These are your customers, people that are going to fill up the dome and make a great home field/court advantage. I understand why NYC is promoted, but these areas should not be forgotten and they should be promoted just as hard if not harder because these are the people that will or could be filling up your venue on a weekly basis. Just my 2 cents.

Why did you leave out the 250,000 plus in the Utica-Rome area ? That is less than 1 hour away from the dome and has many great Cuse fans and alumni. It really diminishes an otherwise good

 

[CousCuse]

I was going to post this in another thread, but I thought maybe it deserved its own thread because of the recent moves by the new Chancellor. Its clear that he is making major cost cutting moves and as some insiders have said, its looking more and more like Gross is gone. I have been a major Gross supporter, but if the Chancellor is really cutting teachers and academic staff, its hard to image Gross staying on with the rumored athletic spending going on. In the past I couldn't imagine losing Gross, but thinking about it last night I think it would be for the best. Gross did his job here excellently; he set us up for the future and got us into the ACC (even though some believed we would be there regardless of him). He truly had big ideas and big plans for this University and the NYC campaign (NY College team) was genius, it was a way of getting NYC households familiar with Syracuse University. Athletic programs thrived under him, more then ever before. And maybe he had to overspend to support them, but this program as a whole is in much better shape now then ever before. As I said, Gross was a big idea man, but this lead to him being out of touch with Syracuse in general. I believe with all the resources and money he spent for the NYC campaign, he kind of forgot about and became out of touch to the locals who support the team on a daily basis. I believe marketing and promotion needs to also come back to the local level. Obviously NYC is the marketing capital of the world but whey can't we do that around the Syracuse area as well? Buffalo is 2 hours away and is a pro sports town, no doubt. But in the last Census, Syracuse's Metropolitian area (3 counties in CNY, not counting the rochester, watertown, binghamton, or albany areas) had a population of 662,577 people. It would take 7.5% of this population to fill the Carrier Dome.

2010 Census

Syracuse metropolitan area- 662,577
Rochester metropolitan area- 1,054,323
Watertown- 27,000 (included due to fort drum soldiers)
Binghamton- 251,725
Albany metropolitan area- 870,716 (58 largest MSA)

These are all very short distances to drive for a premiere Div 1 college team. Why are these places not marketed the same as NYC. These are your customers, people that are going to fill up the dome and make a great home field/court advantage. I understand why NYC is promoted, but these areas should not be forgotten and they should be promoted just as hard if not harder because these are the people that will or could be filling up your venue on a weekly basis. Just my 2 cents.

Why did you leave out the 250,000 plus in the Utica-Rome area ? That is less than 1 hour away from the Dome and has many great Cuse fans and alumni. It really diminishes an otherwise good post. Watch how many Utica fans show up for that Crunch/Comet hockey game in the Dome.

 

[BORZAK]

I told people to watch out for the chancellor.

 

[Full_Rebar]

I see this a lot and I’ve never understood the line of thinking. Why does the University owe the fans anything and why do the fans owe the University anything? I bleed Orange and I buy my tickets and my merchandise because of my love for Cuse sports, but I don’t need to feel appreciated. I do it cause I love it. They don’t owe me anything.

You and many of the people on this board aren't the casual fan. I'm talking about the person who chooses to spend their "entertainment" money in other ways. As a former employee, I heard this numerous times from friends/family/colleagues. I can't tell you how many times I had to call multiple people to give away tickets because people would rather just watch on tv.

I don't mean to say SU owes the fans anything, but if SU wants the casual fans to come back to the Dome they need to do more than they have been doing.

 

[baggerbob]

I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think this new chancellor is either not very knowledgeable about the athletics landscape or just isn't into it or both. I am afraid he will take the Shalala approach that now that we are in the ACC we are good to go and time to cut back.

I am starting to think we'll be Wake in a decade.

Cheers,
Neil

Trying not to take that view, but nothing he has done so far supports him being a fan of athletics, and the longer things stay this way we could be back on the road to de-emphasizing sports.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I'll use the McNabb ceremony as a great example. Best player in the last 25 years and he got a 2 minute video and rushed halftime ceremony in front of a half-empty Dome. There was no special promotion- hey why not a McNabb bobblehead, or something as a giveaway?

You didn't get one of these:

 

[chakka3421]

It was my understanding that one of the main goals of the NY campaign designed by Gross was to leverage SU during the madness of conference realignment. For SU it was either ACC or B1G or experience slow death in the BE (or now the new AAC conference). While I cannot confirm this directly - if this was truly one of the main goals behind the campaign then the good doctor deserves all the credit in the world.

But times change, whereas Cantor let Gross have complete control over SUAD finances and operations, Syverud has taken over complete monetary control of SUAD operations (and corresponding IMG contract negotiations) - 2 completely different management styles. This is why I stated in a different thread that Gross's time here is limited but here is the reason - Gross won't like the loss of control of SUAD finances and everything is now is getting fully inspected and exposed - and future expenditures he will be held accountable for. Ergo I think he will be leaving for greener pastures where he can recapture complete control over finances and operations.

It's also not unique to just SUAD, it's all of SU operations that is getting inspected and validated under the Syverud's budget knife.

 

[FAL]

I was going to post this in another thread, but I thought maybe it deserved its own thread because of the recent moves by the new Chancellor. Its clear that he is making major cost cutting moves and as some insiders have said, its looking more and more like Gross is gone. I have been a major Gross supporter, but if the Chancellor is really cutting teachers and academic staff, its hard to image Gross staying on with the rumored athletic spending going on. In the past I couldn't imagine losing Gross, but thinking about it last night I think it would be for the best. Gross did his job here excellently; he set us up for the future and got us into the ACC (even though some believed we would be there regardless of him). He truly had big ideas and big plans for this University and the NYC campaign (NY College team) was genius, it was a way of getting NYC households familiar with Syracuse University. Athletic programs thrived under him, more then ever before. And maybe he had to overspend to support them, but this program as a whole is in much better shape now then ever before. As I said, Gross was a big idea man, but this lead to him being out of touch with Syracuse in general. I believe with all the resources and money he spent for the NYC campaign, he kind of forgot about and became out of touch to the locals who support the team on a daily basis. I believe marketing and promotion needs to also come back to the local level. Obviously NYC is the marketing capital of the world but whey can't we do that around the Syracuse area as well? Buffalo is 2 hours away and is a pro sports town, no doubt. But in the last Census, Syracuse's Metropolitian area (3 counties in CNY, not counting the rochester, watertown, binghamton, or albany areas) had a population of 662,577 people. It would take 7.5% of this population to fill the Carrier Dome.

2010 Census

Syracuse metropolitan area- 662,577
Rochester metropolitan area- 1,054,323
Watertown- 27,000 (included due to fort drum soldiers)
Binghamton- 251,725
Albany metropolitan area- 870,716 (58 largest MSA)

These are all very short distances to drive for a premiere Div 1 college team. Why are these places not marketed the same as NYC. These are your customers, people that are going to fill up the dome and make a great home field/court advantage. I understand why NYC is promoted, but these areas should not be forgotten and they should be promoted just as hard if not harder because these are the people that will or could be filling up your venue on a weekly basis. Just my 2 cents.

Nice post. I'd like to add the following:

1. What insiders have said it's looking more and more like Gross is gone? (Not being argumentative here; just need some clarification since this is the first time I've heard it other than a few off-hand references on this forum.)

2. I would add Scranton/Wilkes-Barre metro areas in your census table as well. Of the 563, 000 or so who live there, yes the majority are probably PSU/ND fans but stars from the area like Qadry Ismail and Gerry McNamara (among others) have heightened interest in SU sports over the years.

 

[Scooch]

Scooch- I think if you look at what the owners of those Boston teams have done in the last 10 years would tell you what SU could do to appreciate local fans. It goes beyond the facility improvements and into the "fan experience". From a distance, it sure seems as though the Patriots and Red Sox make it a priority for the team (players,coaches, staff) to be integrated in the community. From community outreach, opening the stadiums for non-game events, appearances at youth sports events, it's clear that the message is one of mutual support.

Start with the Meadowlands games being taken from the Dome meaning a gap in marquee opponents, add to that a lack of an added value beyond the game- what does SU offer to get people to go to games.

I'll use the McNabb ceremony as a great example. Best player in the last 25 years and he got a 2 minute video and rushed halftime ceremony in front of a half-empty Dome. There was no special promotion- hey why not a McNabb bobblehead, or something as a giveaway?

Obviously Gross wanted to build a modern arena, and there have been some nice improvements to the Dome to enhance the game-day experience, but I don't think SU has a good grasp on making games into events (outside of the hoops games which have sold themselves).

Thanks for the response, but I'm still not sure I follow. My point was that in the 80s/90s people in Mass. had a passion for these teams and largely showed up, despite the franchises being generally disinterested in making the "experience" humane, let alone enjoyable. There was no community outreach beyond what the Sox did for the Jimmy Fund.

What does SU do for outreach and community involvement that drives our stellar basketball attendance? Where's the amazing value add to those games? You say hoops sells itself, but I'd counter that's exactly what "sells" sports. SU football simply hasn't been that good for a decade now, no amount of marketing can put lipstick on a pig.

I'm not killing CNY for not attending football games better, because there's a case to be made that our on-field performance hasn't been good enough to warrant it. But I just don't see how giving away bobbleheads, or sending assistant coaches to yout sports events to glad-hand people, is going to meaningfully drive attendance.

It feels like demanding "appreciation" is just an excuse. I don't think you need an excuse, I'm a firm believer that crowds of 45K+ will return when the program starts winning consistently again like we did in the 90s.