Gross

[MSOrange]

I agree that drawing 45K for a slightly above average team is unlikely in Syracuse. However, I think with the right combination of moves I think getting high 30's in actual buts in seats is doable. Small updates would go along away in helping attendance.

Hoops will always be smaller but Syracuse needs to do a better job of drawing attendance for football because bball can really only draw the low 30's at max due to the stadium set up and a lof of those fans are also football diehards who are already attending fball games.

I would like to think the high 30s is reasonable or else I would be really disappointed. (Admittedly from the perspective of someone who lives too far away to go to any games). But to get to that level, we need to be winning consistent for several seasons - among other things. We can't afford a drop-off for a season or two and take a step back after a step forward. It's also important to take advantage of the big crowds and play well. Maybe not win all of them, but at least be competitive. I'm a huge Shafer fan at this point but that Clemson game was really disappointing last year.

And after typing that post, I feel like Captain Obvious with the points I made.

 

[DPCuse]

Holy crap I can't believe people do not see the benefit of advertising and moving key games to NYC. It was 100% about moving to a bigger conference. SU needed to tie itself to the most attractive TV market in the US...NYC. It had to get itself on TV when it's team sucked. You weren't going to do that by moving the Akron game to the Meadowlands. It had to be USC, ND, Penn State. You had to advertise there. When the Big 10 and ACC came calling, we were there. Now that SU has secured the ACC, we don't have to move games. Case and point...LSU in a couple years. The locals had to sacrifice a little bit. Let me ask this, would you rather have lost 3 or 4 key games to the Meadowlands and remained in the Big East? Or are you happier we are now in the ACC with the likes of Florida State, Clemson, Miami, etc? Seems clear to me what the answer is.

 

[Full_Rebar]

You didn't get one of these:

Honestly that is the 1st time I've ever seen that. Took my son to that game and never saw one at the gate or in the stands

 

[CU44SE]

You create a "culture" of passionate fans by winning. Not from marketing.

I'd like people to provide one example where a mediocre college or pro team generated large, sustained increases in attendance without meaningfully improving their on field or on court performance.

I disagree, you create a culture of bandwagon fans by winning, you create a close knit syracuse culture by marketing and playing to your clients. Get them invested in your product, show them what they are missing out on. Bandwagon fans will be gone in a second, once you start losing. Thats no way to sustain fans, there are other ways of bringing people out to the stadium, that is my point. If you market and educate the locals, they may just come to find out that they enjoy Syracuse events and activites. For example, my dad moved here from Wisconsin in 1983. The teams won over 6 games once in 16 years but he went to the games because his buddies from work tailgated for them and learned to love the team. Now he is a diehard Syracuse fan that maintained season tickets for basketball and football for over 20 years before we moved 3 years ago. Him being a Syracuse fan, helped me become a Syracuse fan. It how I was raised. There are other ways besides winning to get more people to the games. That is my point. 50,000 seats for over 3,000,000 people is not very much. To only get 30,000 or even 25,000 to some games should be impossible regardless of the record. Not to mention this team has won over 7 games in 3 of the past 4 years.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Chartered buses from Albany, Buffalo and maybe Binghamton, Rochester, Watertown, Utica. Hello? Why is this so hard?

Not doable due to liability purposes. One mishap on the bus or accident and Syracuse runs the risk of a huge lawsuit. They wont do it.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Also, does anyone remember how much $ Jake C and Buzz spent on promoting SU in NYC when the ACC and Swofford wanted to invite SU previously? Just because DG tells you that the Orange in the Apple campaign made a difference to the ACC, doesn't mean it really did.

As far as checkbooks go, if DG was doing well in that department, why has it been such a struggle to get the IPF built? Why did Gait have to raise his own $ to redo the w. lax locker room?

 

[JeremyCuse]

You create a "culture" of passionate fans by winning. Not from marketing.

I'd like people to provide one example where a mediocre college or pro team generated large, sustained increases in attendance without meaningfully improving their on field or on court performance.

Not that I disagree with you but the Chicago Cubs is an example. Id also argue that Nebraska football falls into that category as well as there attendance has remained very strong despite not much happening the past 5-6 years.

 

[cmr27]

Short of paying people to go to games, not much.

Just a hunch but it's about more than sports. Strengthen the bonds between the university and the community. Get CNY residents to identify with SU in other productive ways. Tell them via email/direct mail/social media the great things SU is doing in the community and you may get some brand loyalty that turns casual fans into loyal ones. Beyond that, a fun style of play sure helps. Sports viewing is about escapism from real life. It helps if the product is entertaining to the casual fan (diehards will always be there).

 

[Scooch]

I disagree, you create a culture of bandwagon fans by winning, you create a close knit syracuse culture by marketing and playing to your clients. Get them invested in your product, show them what they are missing out on. Bandwagon fans will be gone in a second, once you start losing. Thats no way to sustain fans, there are other ways of bringing people out to the stadium, that is my point. If you market and educate the locals, they may just come to find out that they enjoy Syracuse events and activites. For example, my dad moved here from Wisconsin in 1983. The teams won over 6 games once in 16 years but he went to the games because his buddies from work tailgated for them and learned to love the team. Now he is a diehard Syracuse fan that maintained season tickets for basketball and football for over 20 years before we moved 3 years ago. Him being a Syracuse fan, helped me become a Syracuse fan. It how I was raised. There are other ways besides winning to get more people to the games. That is my point. 50,000 seats for over 3,000,000 people is not very much. To only get 30,000 or even 25,000 to some games should be impossible regardless of the record. Not to mention this team has won over 7 games in 3 of the past 4 years.

Did you mean 1973? Because SU certainly won more than 6 games multiple times from 1985-2004.

And not for nothing, but attendance in the 80s until the magical '87 season was was about 38K. So that's great that your father had fun at the games with his buddies, and about the same amount of people do that today to follow a similarly mediocre program. I'm not clear on the point you're trying to make.

Again, I'll sincerely ask you or anyone to provide one example where a mediocre college or pro team generated large, sustained increases in attendance without meaningfully improving their on field or on court performance.

CNYers are not immune to the general scope of human behavior. You can't market them into passion, it doesn't work that way.

 

[Scooch]

Not that I disagree with you but the Chicago Cubs is an example. Id also argue that Nebraska football falls into that category as well as there attendance has remained very strong despite not much happening the past 5-6 years.

Good examples. I'll disagree to the extent that (a) the Cubs passion is essentially about summer day drinking. Very few (if any) venues can replicate that. And (b) Nebraska was an absolute college football monster for decades that facilitated a passionately devoted fan base being built. And that's not what I was referring to anyway-- they didn't have mediocre attendance that they increased despite continued mediocre play. They had phenomenal attendance that persisted despite a lull in the aforementioned monstrousness. Completely different dynamic.

 

[CU44SE]

Did you mean 1973? Because SU certainly won more than 6 games multiple times from 1985-2004.

And not for nothing, but attendance in the 80s until the magical '87 season was was about 38K. So that's great that your father had fun at the games with his buddies, and about the same amount of people do that today to follow a similarly mediocre program. I'm not clear on the point you're trying to make.

Again, I'll sincerely ask you or anyone to provide one example where a mediocre college or pro team generated large, sustained increases in attendance without meaningfully improving their on field or on court performance.

CNYers are not immune to the general scope of human behavior. You can't market them into passion, it doesn't work that way.

Moved here in 83, from 83 to 86 (4 years) they won 6, 6, 7, and 5 games respectively. Before that, they won over 6 games once from 68-83. My dads experience of becoming a fan was an example of someone new coming to the games and having a great time even though they weren't all that good. He had season tickets before the 87 season when they were very successful. That is my point, that someone just going to the games can have a good time regardless of them only winning 6 games, which is in direct correlation with my idea of increasing marketing to the surrounding areas I listed. Maybe you can tell me when has Syracuse ever marketed the surrounding areas I listed like they marketed NYC? There is no telling how many new people would come out to the games. Thats my point, reaching people that have never been marketed by Syracuse before within an hour drive. People who can actually come and enjoy the games.

 

[TheCusian]

Gross's response to the new chancellor and his tighter wallet was to axe the IMG deal - which should be a windfall for the university and the athletic department.

I'm no insider - but that doesn't seem like the move if a guy on his way out.

 

[rrlbees]

Holy crap I can't believe people do not see the benefit of advertising and moving key games to NYC. It was 100% about moving to a bigger conference. SU needed to tie itself to the most attractive TV market in the US...NYC. It had to get itself on TV when it's team sucked. You weren't going to do that by moving the Akron game to the Meadowlands. It had to be USC, ND, Penn State. You had to advertise there. When the Big 10 and ACC came calling, we were there. Now that SU has secured the ACC, we don't have to move games. Case and point...LSU in a couple years. The locals had to sacrifice a little bit. Let me ask this, would you rather have lost 3 or 4 key games to the Meadowlands and remained in the Big East? Or are you happier we are now in the ACC with the likes of Florida State, Clemson, Miami, etc? Seems clear to me what the answer is.

That's an exaggeration IMO. We sign a contract to play games in NJ for 20 years so we could join the ACC last year? And it was 100% the reason?

 

[Whitey23]

He must have done something right if Buffalo is trying to move in on it.

https://twitter.com/BrentAxeMedia/status/486930127901581312/photo/1

 

[Chip]

The issue isnt making fans feel appreciated its making decisions that show that Syracuse has at least some respect for the local fanbase especially the diehards instead of making decisions that for the most part are the exact opposite of that. Scheduling for the most part has been less then ideal with the top OOC game moved to Metlife the past two season and now this years game vs ND. The reasons for the Metlife series aside from the guaranteed money haven't proven to be true. There hasn't been some enormous increase in exposure or recruiting ability for Syracuse in NYC and there definitely hasn't been the turnout of alumni and NYC fans attending the game as many predicted there would be. I have been to all of the Metlife games so far but I am on the fence for the ND game and know many others who feel the same and are leaning toward not attending. Tickets are dirt cheap for the most part so I have no qualms there but its been pointed out on thousands of occassions that the price points for the seating between the 20's/preferred sections needs a total revamp. Parking and traffic while not an issue for those familiar with those issues for say an NFL game or other big time Div 1 team, is actually a huge issue for many of the fair weather fans who really only know Syracuse. The parking situation is a total nightmare compounded by the fact that the set up for Dome traffic would struggle to accomodate a Div 3 team less Syracuse. I personally dont have an issue with either because I have a parking pass and tailgate but trying to recruit new people to come to a football game always ends up with a 10 minute conversation trying to explain the parking options. People in today's day and age simply dont want to put up with the hassle of trying to get to the one public garage near the dome (if they even know its there) or parking at Skytop, its sad to say but honestly its the truth. Syracuse also compounds the issue above by systematically removing prime tailgate and parking spaces. In the last 5 years we have lost one full lot and nearly half of another. I understand that the schools need to expand is a top priority but you have to leave some areas for parking passes and people who want to tailgate somewhere at least in the vacinity of the Dome. The West parking lots are pretty much the last bastion of near campus tailgating and its no surprise that all three lots are usually jammed full with people with an hour or so of kickoff. Its amazing to me that Syracuse cant figure out why attendance isn't where it should be yet they keep taking away one of there prime assets/tools to bring in more fans and keep the diehards happy. There also a myriad of other issues Syracuse could do light years better in. Marketing/Advertising is absolutely awful and thats being kind. Also if you have to deal with SU for any sort of ticket, parking or Orange pack issue its a total crapshoot on how that conversation is going to go. Half the time it feels like your inconveniencing them when your trying to give them money. Honestly the stuff above is just scratching the surface. The fact that the attendance hasn't completly bottomed out is a small miracle.

I kinda knew that eventually the PSU game and ND games would be lumped in with the USC game. But really only the USC game was "moved". PSU was neutral and was supposed to be 1-1-1. ND series doesn't even exist without NYC.

 

[Scooch]

Moved here in 83, from 83 to 86 (4 years) they won 6, 6, 7, and 5 games respectively. Before that, they won over 6 games once from 68-83. My dads experience of becoming a fan was an example of someone new coming to the games and having a great time even though they weren't all that good. He had season tickets before the 87 season when they were very successful. That is my point, that someone just going to the games can have a good time regardless of them only winning 6 games, which is in direct correlation with my idea of increasing marketing to the surrounding areas I listed. Maybe you can tell me when has Syracuse ever marketed the surrounding areas I listed like they marketed NYC? There is no telling how many new people would come out to the games. Thats my point, reaching people that have never been marketed by Syracuse before within an hour drive. People who can actually come and enjoy the games.

I've long advocated that SU do a better job of engaging potential fans within a "diamond of influence" (Utica to the east, Watertown to the north, Rochester to the west, Binghamton to the south). So we're simpatico there.

I just think people don't understand marketing, and have unrealistic expectations of what it can yield. Ultimately people come to sporting events more when the team is winning than when they are losing. That dynamic occurs everywhere in this great nation of ours. So you may be able to get additional people to sample the SU football experience, but you won't meaningfully and sustainably increase attendance without winning more games. There's no black magic to it, it's pretty simple.

I live in CT, and no one markets more than the New York Yankees. They also have a metro population of 20 million to draw from. And last year they had their worst attendance in a decade. Because they weren't good. It's not like the Yankee gameday experience was any worse than it was a couple years prior, other than the fact that the team wasn't worth going to see.

We drew 48K for Clemson last year. We drew 45K for a Friday night game against WVU in 20011. We drew 43K against BC in 2010. We drew 48K for Marrone's first game against Minnesota. All of which proves to me that the community is perfectly capable of turning out for football games. We just gotta be better.

 

[anglerman]

I told people to watch out for the chancellor.

I don't agree wit this at all. He already tried to get a new stadium deal and canceling the contract with IMG shows he's financially wise. I think he's trying to bring more money in to the athletic department and spend it wisely I would expect the athemtic department to better going forward. Let's not forget the big influx of cash coming from being a member of the ACC. I can't see how things could possibly be worse

 

[Rocco]

One simple solution is to transfer a big portion of the salaries of the women's lax and bball programs back to football and men's basketball. We need to be able to pay our football coaches more and we are getting Boeheim for a steal when compared to the other blue blood programs.

After all, football landed us a lucrative TV deal and basketball makes this school a bunch of money. I get Title IX, but no need to pay Gait and Quentin so freaking much.

 

[cuseinchina]

I don't agree wit this at all. He already tried to get a new stadium deal and canceling the contract with IMG shows he's financially wise. I think he's trying to bring more money in to the athletic department and spend it wisely I would expect the athemtic department to better going forward. Let's not forget the big influx of cash coming from being a member of the ACC. I can't see how things could possibly be worse

The new chancellor is not going to mess with revenue sports. He's going to optimize, cut waste, and overhaul a department that clearly is in need of it. This guy understand the value of football and basketball to the school long-term...just because he's making waves with cost cutting does not mean he's bad for athletics - I think he'll actually be very very good at least from the perspective of the fans of revenue sports.

 

[bnoro]

We're finally at the point in the offseason where we can argue about NYC games and why Daryl Gross should be out. Hooray...

 

[FAL]

I see this a lot and I’ve never understood the line of thinking. Why does the University owe the fans anything and why do the fans owe the University anything? I bleed Orange and I buy my tickets and my merchandise because of my love for Cuse sports, but I don’t need to feel appreciated. I do it cause I love it. They don’t owe me anything.

I told people to watch out for the chancellor.

Oh, shoot! We thought you meant Kaiser!

 

[javadoc]

We're finally at the point in the offseason where we can argue about NYC games and why Daryl Gross should be out. Hooray...

Next up, injuries during camp and arguments about whether Hicks is preparing people properly.

 

[Scooch]

The new chancellor is not going to mess with revenue sports. He's going to optimize, cut waste, and overhaul a department that clearly is in need of it. This guy understand the value of football and basketball to the school long-term...just because he's making waves with cost cutting does not mean he's bad for athletics - I think he'll actually be very very good at least from the perspective of the fans of revenue sports.

Agreed.

People are so...weird. Why would the BOT hire a guy to run the university who is going to purposefully and expressly harm SU athletics?

If the SU BOT really had a desire to de-emphasize our athletics we could have done that pretty damn easily. Simply (and quietly) decline the ACC membership offer, and stay in the Big East. I bet the league wouldn't have split had it been Uconn leaving and not SU, which means we'd have maintained our old hoops rivalries and played football at a less financially competitive D-1 level.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Agreed.

People are so...weird. Why would the BOT hire a guy to run the university who is going to purposefully and expressly harm SU athletics?

If the SU BOT really had a desire to de-emphasize our athletics we could have done that pretty damn easily. Simply (and quietly) decline the ACC membership offer, and stay in the Big East. I bet the league wouldn't have split had it been Uconn leaving and not SU, which means we'd have maintained our old hoops rivalries and played football at a less financially competitive D-1 level.

absolutely.

the university couldve taken the Dome land back and built a conte forum like place at skytop. put 25k in for hoop, with a big seating section on the outside for 20k football season ticket holders with a set of bleachers accross the field for another 10k and just like that we're out and the hoop onlies win.

just think!!!...then we could add a football game to that precious rivarly with georgtown.

 

[Scooch]

Not that I disagree with you but the Chicago Cubs is an example. Id also argue that Nebraska football falls into that category as well as there attendance has remained very strong despite not much happening the past 5-6 years.

One other thing about the Cubs that I just found... their attendance has declined each of the past 5 years, and last year was their worst since 1998:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/cubsatte.shtml

So their craptastic on-field play seems to be having some effect!