Has Boeheim entered the Frank Beamer/Mack Brown zone?

[Briancuse]

those 2 players were Diange and KJ being who we hoped he would be

And last year Ennis and Grant, had they had been there, which Jb expected them to be we are looking at a completely different team, of course it wouldn't have mattered with the sanctions.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Moar #hottakes pleaz

 

[OttoMets]

A lot of people here will deny this but JB has concerned me after this year. 4 years out of 10 not making the tourney. Making no adjustments year to year based on personnel that his team has. Just troubling IMO

I'm with you. Not condemning him or pushing him out the door, but I'm concerned about the future of the program. More concerned than I was in summer 2008 (I don't know why - that doesn't make a lot of sense).

Boeheim obviously did an excellent job when he came back in January, the results with him coaching his team were so much better than Hopkins coaching Boeheim's team. But I'm ambivalent about this, because Boeheim's results this year (and last, and the one before that) are worse than we've grown accustomed to, so being better than Mike just makes the future look shakier.

The conservative coaching, the questionable player development, the stubbornness with regard to a four-year period of very poor offense are all cause for concern. We've seen less innovation and flexibility than Boeheim initially demonstrated in becoming a great coach (he never would have gotten out-maneuvered and swept by some guy with Jamie Dixon's players in 1994).

I don't remember a time when Young Boeheim would bring in a highly-regarded recruit and make him disappear - not phase him out, like Harris or Edwards, but just exile him.

Nor do I remember instances in which in-game player development isn't favored: when have we seen so many young players with red lights in various aspects of the game?

Same deal with forcing certain players into high-profile roles that many think they're not suited for (Fair as the iso star, Cooney as the volume scorer, Gbinije as the point guard) and then getting mixed results.

It's clear that Boeheim is less flexible and more conservative than he was ten years ago. I think this makes him a worse coach, and I believe it's a one-way ratchet; he's not going to be less conservative or dial back the stubbornness next season. That means we'll be more dependent on player execution in order to succeed (that is, to win a lot of games and make a postseason run). I like our returning players quite a bit, but it's asking a lot for our season to rest on kids' execution. Syracuse has been great because we've had two advantages: coaching and players. The gap on the former has narrowed in a lot of cases.

 

[Millhouse]

JB is a relic but he's earned whatever he wants. My concern is that we will have a poor man's boeheim with none of the intuition. JB is an extraordinarily bright man, anyone we get will likely not be as smart. But that isn't something that his coaching tree will inherit.

 

[longislandcuse]

As long as the next coach doesn't let opposing teams dictate pace the entire game, I'd be ok moving on.

I cannot stand the zone exclusivity. When we say "exclusivity", we mean in all aspects. We play it ALL game. We recruit for it. We allow the other teams to set the tempo. If it isn't working, we don't switch out of it for one play. It's become bigger than the program. It's all we're known for and all we do.

I'm over it.

 

[HOFCeluck]

As long as the next coach doesn't let opposing teams dictate pace the entire game, I'd be ok moving on.

I cannot stand the zone exclusivity. When we say "exclusivity", we mean in all aspects. We play it ALL game. We recruit for it. We allow the other teams to set the tempo. If it isn't working, we don't switch out of it for one play. It's become bigger than the program. It's all we're known for and all we do.

I'm over it.

Well obviously he didn't read his book. All the answers are there and must not be questioned #townietakes.

That being said. I'm not going to push him out the door because of two mediocre seasons. Much of which I think has to do with two years or recruiting misses /projects/bad luck. I'm really encouraged by the freshman.

 

[MikeSU02]

Football v basketball isn't a fair comparison, imo. They are very different beasts.

However, JB's rigidity with not recruiting nationally, sticking with the zone and not evolving his offense does make it seem like he's starting to get into "get off my lawn" territory.

He's earned the right to stay too long and I wouldn't call for him to retire, but if next year is like this year, that will change.

 

[br801]

Football v basketball isn't a fair comparison, imo. They are very different beasts.

However, JB's rigidity with not recruiting nationally, sticking with the zone and not evolving his offense does make it seem like he's starting to get into "get off my lawn" territory.

He's earned the right to stay too long and I wouldn't call for him to retire, but if next year is like this year, that will change.

So if next season's results don't meet your expectations, you would call for the lame duck coach to retire? Nice.

 

[PhatOrange]

2013 Final Four

 

[MikeSU02]

So if next season's results don't meet your expectations, you would call for the lame duck coach to retire? Nice.

Yes, I get to do that as a fan. I'm sure JB would be very broken up about it.

But appreciate your awesome-sauce response.

 

[NKR1978]

The conservative coaching, the questionable player development, the stubbornness with regard to a four-year period of very poor offense are all cause for concern. We've seen less innovation and flexibility than Boeheim initially demonstrated in becoming a great coach (he never would have gotten out-maneuvered and swept by some guy with Jamie Dixon's players in 1994).

It's funny that we've gone the other way with the offense. In 08 we had how many games where we gave up 90-100 points? 09 was a team that could get torched, but could also outscore you. Then we had three teams with good to truly great offense and great defense. Then the 2013 BET and NCAA came and offense moved to the back of the bus versus defense.

I disagree that he's unwilling to be flexible. Benching TC for much of the 2nd half yesterday is flexibility. He just falls back on what's comfortable too easily sometimes and takes too long to get there.

This team was poorly constructed (which is his fault) though it should have been the bubble team that dropped off after another top 5-10 team last year (with Grant/Ennis/healthy McCullough). If we had the lineup he planned to have last year, I think we would all feel better about being back to normal in 2017 with this freshmen class and the guys we have coming in next year.

He's such a competitive guy that he has one more great team in him. I just hope he has a little introspection in this stretch run of his career and looks around at what's working in college basketball today.

 

[cuseinseattle]

We need to somehow archive this thread. 6 years from now people will look back on it and laugh. I hope I'm wrong but after Boeheim is gone the drop off is really going to hurt some people here who have lived far too good for a really long time. We are not Duke, NC, Kansas or Kentucky. We are not a traditional power. We were lucky that it just so happens one of the 10 best coaches in the history of college basketball walked on at our school and decided to stay. In the last 8 years or so we have been a #1 seed in the tourney twice, been to the final 4 and elite 8 if not for two issues with starting centers we could have been to 3 final fours in 8 years. Then we win 19 games and people are jumping off ledges about how we are down and out.

 

[br801]

This is dedicated to our long-suffering basketball fan base...

 

[FrancoPizza]

Benching TC for much of the 2nd half yesterday is flexibility.

It only took the last game in TC's career for JB to make that decision. Flexible my butt.

 

[CuseTG2003]

Football v basketball isn't a fair comparison, imo. They are very different beasts.

However, JB's rigidity with not recruiting nationally, sticking with the zone and not evolving his offense does make it seem like he's starting to get into "get off my lawn" territory.

He's earned the right to stay too long and I wouldn't call for him to retire, but if next year is like this year, that will change.

I think Bob Knight's a much better comparison. Especially w/ the refusal to adjust and the "get off my lawn" mentality.

 

[jr4750]

As long as the next coach doesn't let opposing teams dictate pace the entire game, I'd be ok moving on.

I cannot stand the zone exclusivity. When we say "exclusivity", we mean in all aspects. We play it ALL game. We recruit for it. We allow the other teams to set the tempo. If it isn't working, we don't switch out of it for one play. It's become bigger than the program. It's all we're known for and all we do.

I'm over it.

Absolutely 100% agree. JB is adamant we can't play man. How is it that super long athletics kids can't play man and zone? And, I totally get how successful the zone has been, but against teams like Pitt, UL, etc., it doesn't work and we just accept defeat by not trying something different.

Let me just state some facts/assumptions we have heard here on this board lately.

• JB doesn't like to go recruit anymore. Especially the top tier kids from places not named NJ.
• We run a simple offense, easily predictable and rarely changing.
• We run the same defense, literally every game, for 40 minutes. Saves time in preparation for our coaches, but also for our opponents. Sure PAC/B12 teams hate playing us in the big dance, but teams in our conference have it fairly prepped for at this point.
• We have brought kids in because they fit the zone, at the expense of kids who are offensively skilled. I have always admired UL cause they have those NYC guards that are 5'10 but can score in droves. We bring in 6'3 guards that aren't scorers, but in our offense they have to be, or at least amazing facilitators. Our recruitment of Quade Green makes me optimistic however.

If, these are true, then the notion that JB should probably get out sooner than later has to be an option. He's over recruiting, (who wouldn't be after 40 years) he runs the same offense and defense, every year, and every game. This year, because of personal, tweaks could have been made, whether they worked or not, to counter the glaring weaknesses. Our press was super effective against Pitt yesterday, wish we had worked that in for stretches in the 1st half as well. Playing Frank was a nice change to take G off ball. I don't blame him for putting Cooney back in late. Frank can't score, so you have to put TC in there. Just shouldn't have come down to the last play anyway. Pitt is a mediocre team and they swept us this year. Ugh.

 

[FrancoPizza]

after Boeheim is gone the drop off is really going to hurt some people here who have lived far too good for a really long time.

Everyone is selling Hopkins short. Let's see what he does with his own team and system. And, btw, not participating in March Madness 4 out of 10 years is not exactly a Syracuse fan's dream. In fact, many of us think that measure is unacceptable. Those are mid-major credentials... middle-of-the-ACC credentials. Hopkins may not be the answer, but JB's current trajectory is not making a case for the status quo. Many of us are ready for change... we're ready to see what Hopkins can do, fully realizing there may be growing pains as well.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Our press was super effective against Pitt yesterday, wish we had worked that in for stretches in the 1st half as well.

The fact that trunk monkey worked so well says more about Pitt than us. Our press is nothing more than a complete sell-out. It's completely undisciplined and ineffective against teams who are any good. Heck, even in 2011-12 when we went 10 deep, the most we've ever pressed with JB, how useful was it in the NCAAs when it mattered most?

We have the athletes and, just as important, the length to run a disruptive, 2-2-1 press, even if just for a few minutes here and there. We just don't have a head coach willing to give it a look... he's too busy devoting all his practice time to the zone.

 

[IthacaMatt]

We need to somehow archive this thread. 6 years from now people will look back on it and laugh. I hope I'm wrong but after Boeheim is gone the drop off is really going to hurt some people here who have lived far too good for a really long time. We are not Duke, NC, Kansas or Kentucky. We are not a traditional power. We were lucky that it just so happens one of the 10 best coaches in the history of college basketball walked on at our school and decided to stay. In the last 8 years or so we have been a #1 seed in the tourney twice, been to the final 4 and elite 8 if not for two issues with starting centers we could have been to 3 final fours in 8 years. Then we win 19 games and people are jumping off ledges about how we are down and out.

As long as Mike is here, our recruiting ought to hold up for at least a couple years. The only way I see us completely falling apart is if Mike can't coach us to better than a .500 record in his first couple years, in which case we will be looking for a new, proven head coach anyway, and will still have tremendous facilities and the biggest home court in America for players to play in. We'll still be playing Duke and Carolina every year. We not going to become St. John's, people.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Absolutely 100% agree. JB is adamant we can't play man. How is it that super long athletics kids can't play man and zone? And, I totally get how successful the zone has been, but against teams like Pitt, UL, etc., it doesn't work and we just accept defeat by not trying something different.

Let me just state some facts/assumptions we have heard here on this board lately.

• JB doesn't like to go recruit anymore. Especially the top tier kids from places not named NJ.
• We run a simple offense, easily predictable and rarely changing.
• We run the same defense, literally every game, for 40 minutes. Saves time in preparation for our coaches, but also for our opponents. Sure PAC/B12 teams hate playing us in the big dance, but teams in our conference have it fairly prepped for at this point.
• We have brought kids in because they fit the zone, at the expense of kids who are offensively skilled. I have always admired UL cause they have those NYC guards that are 5'10 but can score in droves. We bring in 6'3 guards that aren't scorers, but in our offense they have to be, or at least amazing facilitators. Our recruitment of Quade Green makes me optimistic however.

If, these are true, then the notion that JB should probably get out sooner than later has to be an option. He's over recruiting, (who wouldn't be after 40 years) he runs the same offense and defense, every year, and every game. This year, because of personal, tweaks could have been made, whether they worked or not, to counter the glaring weaknesses. Our press was super effective against Pitt yesterday, wish we had worked that in for stretches in the 1st half as well. Playing Frank was a nice change to take G off ball. I don't blame him for putting Cooney back in late. Frank can't score, so you have to put TC in there. Just shouldn't have come down to the last play anyway. Pitt is a mediocre team and they swept us this year. Ugh.

The first point about recruiting isn't true. So whoever said that doesn't know what they are talking about. I like the zone and don't want to sprinkle in other things. We can have a long detailed talk about our offense if you want. The reality is this team was never going to be elite. It is a transition year. I felt like this was discussed at the beginning of the year and generally agreed upon. There are multiple coaches that prefer big guards who play man to man. Also our guards are the least of our problems. We have no front court. If we did it would be Silent G, Mali and Cooney in a rotation that saw Cooney playing 20 minutes a game but we couldn't do that because we have a 2 guard playing small forward. I would think this would be obvious to someone that is legally blind but apparently it is not.

 

[NKR1978]

Everyone is selling Hopkins short. Let's see what he does with his own team and system. And, btw, not participating in March Madness 4 out of 10 years is not exactly a Syracuse fan's dream. In fact, many of us think that measure is unacceptable. Those are mid-major credentials... middle-of-the-ACC credentials. Hopkins may not be the answer, but JB's current trajectory is not making a case for the status quo. Many of us are ready for change... we're ready to see what Hopkins can do, fully realizing there may be growing pains as well.

How many programs since 2007 have been to a Final Four, Elite 8 and two additional Sweet 16's?

 

[cuseinseattle]

Everyone is selling Hopkins short. Let's see what he does with his own team and system. And, btw, not participating in March Madness 4 out of 10 years is not exactly a Syracuse fan's dream. In fact, many of us think that measure is unacceptable. Those are mid-major credentials... middle-of-the-ACC credentials. Hopkins may not be the answer, but JB's current trajectory is not making a case for the status quo. Many of us are ready for change... we're ready to see what Hopkins can do, fully realizing there may be growing pains as well.

I love when people say "Hopkins System". The guys has been an assistant and played for one person his entire life. The idea that he has been stewing on the bench waiting for his turn to run a 2-2-1 press or m2m is so funny. I wonder where people get this from. I love Coach Hop and really hope he does well. I invest a lot of my time in Syracuse Basketball and would love nothing more than that. I just don't see it.

 

[FrancoPizza]

I love when people say "Hopkins System". The guys has been an assistant and played for one person his entire life. The idea that he has been stewing on the bench waiting for his turn to run a 2-2-1 press or m2m is so funny. I wonder where people get this from. I love Coach Hop and really hope he does well. I invest a lot of my time in Syracuse Basketball and would love nothing more than that. I just don't see it.

Crazy to think that Hopkins might have some ideas that are different. Just crazy talk!

 

[jr4750]

The first point about recruiting isn't true. So whoever said that doesn't know what they are talking about. I like the zone and don't want to sprinkle in other things. We can have a long detailed talk about our offense if you want. The reality is this team was never going to be elite. It is a transition year. I felt like this was discussed at the beginning of the year and generally agreed upon. There are multiple coaches that prefer big guards who play man to man. Also our guards are the least of our problems. We have no front court. If we did it would be Silent G, Mali and Cooney in a rotation that saw Cooney playing 20 minutes a game but we couldn't do that because we have a 2 guard playing small forward. I would think this would be obvious to someone that is legally blind but apparently it is not.

I am not trying to speak for him, but Francis03 has stated many times that JB won't go after the kids who are not local and doesn't get into the long recruitment battles that don't end until the Spring. He wants it wrapped up by November and the top players don't sign then. Take the kid from NJ who transferred to TX as an example. Top 5 kid from our geography, and we are out, because we didn't want to play around there. Porter as well. Top 10 2017 kid, who had interest, but we are not pursuing. Also, not denying this team had a ton of flaws, I agree Mali is a 2 guard not a SF, and G is a Sf not a pg. Not sure how that condemns the notion we play a very predictable brand of basketball? No question we had issues with the roster this year that were probably too much to overcome whether we made the tourney or not, but I don't think Syracuse should ever be a middle of the pack ACC team. Hopefully next year we won't be. I wouldn't mind bringing in a 5th year guard to help out though.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Everyone is selling Hopkins short. Let's see what he does with his own team and system. And, btw, not participating in March Madness 4 out of 10 years is not exactly a Syracuse fan's dream. In fact, many of us think that measure is unacceptable. Those are mid-major credentials... middle-of-the-ACC credentials. Hopkins may not be the answer, but JB's current trajectory is not making a case for the status quo. Many of us are ready for change... we're ready to see what Hopkins can do, fully realizing there may be growing pains as well.

It's funny how it was unacceptable to hire a football coach with no HC experience at all, but let's entrust our all time top ten basketball program to Mike Hopkins.