heres what i HATE about the zone | Page 5 | Syracusefan.com

heres what i HATE about the zone

“Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War

translation : open in zone and then slap on some m2m. catch them off balance and keep them guessing. guarantee nobody is prepped for syracuse man.
 
and your argument is that playing only zone defense exclusively is the best strategy. and how many ncaa championships has that strategy won ?

One.

And how many would we have won if we sued both defenses?

Maybe none.
 
1 in 40. not great . and we don't even get past ok st. without jeremy mcneil and the press lest you forget. you like those odds ? waving the banner in 2050 ?
 
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This is all fine and dandy but frankly null and void in terms of our losses. We have been losing because of getting slaughtered inside and because our offense generally stinks and is limited...like too reliant on having to make jumpers/3s. Next year should be much different.

Close ... but no cigar.

Our interior defense is the problem. But switching these guys to M2M will not help.
 
I'd say one, but our offensive talent on that team trumped our defense that year.
m2m should be credited with at least 2 wins that year. Carmelo gets credit for 27. Zone gets credit for Oklahoma. ;)
 
ok , so your position here seems pretty clear. but for the record are you saying that no team can win playing man to man defense or are you saying that syracuse basketball alone can not win playing M2M defense. cuz that would seem to be a coaching thing. they can... yet we can't. you see the issue here ?
 
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Ok, and that stat is amazing and I applaud or defense against 3pt shooting. You're not answering the question though, what about when it's obviously not working and in situations where it probably shouldn't be used, i.e. vs Clemson in the closing seconds.

Answer that for me with a logical response and I'll drop this.

I'm all for an occasional switch out of zone, but didn't we give up that last second shot vs Clemson because one of our guards abandoned the shooters and compressed into the lane on a drive? Or am I thinking about a different game?
 
The flip side to that is that if you can use man-to-man principles in a zone, why do you need to stop playing the zone?

Interesting. I guess it's where the principles end (leaving a cutter for a position on the floor as opposed to staying with him) and the zone picks up.

I thought the zone against UNC was great all game long until Roy abandoned the 3point shot because they were terrible from there and getting much more reliable shots (dunks) by beating the zone through passing. Contraction of the zone to pack the middle (going 2-1-2 instead of 4-1) or going M2M might have turned the tide there and won that game.
 
I take major issue with the last statement. We're not forcing teams to use the shot clock. In fact it's quite the opposite. By and large, smart coaches instruct their teams to be patient and use some good ball reversals to get the zone out of position. Why do you think VA was rolling the ball up court? They wanted to tire us out chasing the ball for 30 seconds.

I also don't get the fascination with statistics. 3pt fg% or turnover % in a vacuum is kind of silly. Anyone watching these games can tell you we have a very flawed defense that smart coaches know how to exploit.
Of course we are forcing teams to work the clock. Anyone that has played organized basketball knows it takes longer to beat a zone than a man to man. That is why the shorter the shot clock, the better for us. And anyone that has watched our team knows, yes we are flawed. What defense we use has nothing to do with that.
 
"Anyone that has played organized basketball knows it takes longer to beat a zone than a man to man. "

not true.
 
ok , so your position here seems pretty clear. but for the record are you saying that no team can win playing man to man defense or are you saying that syracuse basketball alone can not win playing M2M defense. cuz that would seem to be a coaching thing. they can yet we can't. you see the issue here ?

What I am saying is that there is no good reason for SU to switch to M2M for any period of time.

M2M is NOT better against the 3 Pt shot than is Zone the way SU plays Zone.
That there is no element of surprise here when you switch to a defense the opponent is highly familiar with.
That the SU M2M is something we rarely use and therefore don't practice and it's likely not to be a very good M2M.

It is IMO a "dumb idea" that surfaces continually from the more emotional posters who apparently are searching for the guilty after losses. The usual suspects in this post-defeat search for the guilty are Boeheim, The Zone, the refs and assorted SU players and the NCAA rules that allow One-and-Dones.

The whining, gnashing of teeth and finger-pointing and assignment of blame on this forum after a loss is surprising and disappointing.

Weaker teams beat better teams in games. It happen all the time. (I was in Cole Field House for the Richmond debacle when our future NBA'ers were beaten by a bunch of future lawyers.)

Very good players --- and that's what you see a lot of in the ACC especially at schools like UVA --- are going to make good and even great plays against us. That's the reason UVA beat us.

Sometimes our players are going to screw up. It happens.

It's all part of college basketball.

And one last point. UVA hasn't lost in that gym in like four years. It took some great plays and great shots on our part to keep it as close as it was. Without these SU plays and with the UVA plays, we would have lost by 16 or 20.
 
What is there about this sentence you don't understand?

"Syracuse is holding opponents to just 29% from 3-point range, which ranks 11th in college basketball."

M2M is no better at defending against the 3 than is Zone the way we play it.

Closely guarding someone 25' from the basket is inviting them to blow past you, get into the defense and score or dish for an easy "2".

There are trade-offs in every basketball defense. As JB once said, "When someone scores on M2M people do not yell out 'play zone!'".
 
What I am saying is that there is no good reason for SU to switch to M2M for any period of time.

M2M is NOT better against the 3 Pt shot than is Zone the way SU plays Zone.
That there is no element of surprise here when you switch to a defense the opponent is highly familiar with.
That the SU M2M is something we rarely use and therefore don't practice and it's likely not to be a very good M2M.

It is IMO a "dumb idea" that surfaces continually from the more emotional posters who apparently are searching for the guilty after losses. The usual suspects in this post-defeat search for the guilty are Boeheim, The Zone, the refs and assorted SU players and the NCAA rules that allow One-and-Dones.

The whining, gnashing of teeth and finger-pointing and assignment of blame on this forum after a loss is surprising and disappointing.

Weaker teams beat better teams in games. It happen all the time. (I was in Cole Field House for the Richmond debacle when our future NBA'ers were beaten by a bunch of future lawyers.)

Very good players --- and that's what you see a lot of in the ACC especially at schools like UVA --- are going to make good and even great plays against us. That's the reason UVA beat us.

Sometimes our players are going to screw up. It happens.

It's all part of college basketball.

And one last point. UVA hasn't lost in that gym in like four years. It took some great plays and great shots on our part to keep it as close as it was. Without these SU plays and with the UVA plays, we would have lost by 16 or 20.

LOL
 
so does anyone still disagree that having both is better? that's the crux of this rather limited debate. cuz nothing i've heard here today says zone rules.
 
so does anyone still disagree that having both is better? that's the crux of this rather limited debate. cuz nothing i've heard here today says zone rules.

There is no reason to switch to M2M from the SU zone in a game.

Switching to a defense at a critical point in the game that 1.) You use infrequently and 2.) That the opponent sees 30 games a year and 3) Which is no better at defending critical shots makes no sense.

The answer is to do what you do best better.
 
"Anyone that has played organized basketball knows it takes longer to beat a zone than a man to man. "

not true.

Why did the NBA outlaw zones for 30 or 40 years?
 
Close ... but no cigar.

Our interior defense is the problem. But switching these guys to M2M will not help.

Oh I agree. I'm just saying that the particular stat of being so good at defending the 3 is sort of irrelevant since I think all of the losses (maybe not StJ) occured because we were slaughtered inside.
 
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Yeah, I mean any defense that allows teams to shoot 29% from three just ought to be scrapped—ASAP.
 
I'm all for an occasional switch out of zone, but didn't we give up that last second shot vs Clemson because one of our guards abandoned the shooters and compressed into the lane on a drive? Or am I thinking about a different game?

I think that was the one. It was simply a catastrophic defensive breakdown. Had it been played properly then we likely have a W or at least a more challenged 3 instead of freaking wide open.
 
And it's obvious to anyone that none of our losses so far have anything to do with issues on offense.

I know right? To me it is the offense as reason #1 we struggle. Interior defense 1B. Or swap them and I don't have a big problem with that.
 
I know right? To me it is the offense as reason #1 we struggle. Interior defense 1B. Or swap them and I don't have a big problem with that.
yep agreed - except for the st.johns game
 

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