Hopkins, the zone and the future

[Jack Hall]

The '96 FF team was the one that really turned the "zone" corner. (Before that, SU probably played more m2m than zone.)

Why the transition that year? Well, the coach said during that season that they were one of the slowest teams he had ever coached, especially with Z Sims and Cipolla at the guards.

Yes but JBs zone has evolved so much since then. First he got long, quick, athletic guys like Hak and Wes J and he saw how much better the bottom of the zone can be because those guys could recover from wing to basket soo quickly, think Haks amazing block against KU in 03 where he closed from the paint to the wing amazingly fast. And getting a rim protector like Fab makes the bottom of zone even better. Then he started getting big athletic guards like BT and Dion and MCW and the zone got even better. In 96 I remember us just daring KU to take 3s. Now JBs zone IMO challenges shots much better, it's more active and amoeba like, and it gets into passing lanes better...the downside IMO being we have always struggled to rebound in the zone...but I doubt once Hop takes over he will recruit any differently, he will go after long athletic guys at every position and we will continue to play mostly zone. Go Orange!

 

[Jack Hall]

Yes but JBs zone has evolved so much since then. First he got long, quick, athletic guys like Hak and Wes J and he saw how much better the bottom of the zone can be because those guys could recover from wing to basket soo quickly, think Haks amazing block against KU in 03 where he closed from the paint to the wing amazingly fast. And getting a rim protector like Fab makes the bottom of zone even better. Then he started getting big athletic guards like BT and Dion and MCW and the zone got even better. In 96 I remember us just daring KU to take 3s. Now JBs zone IMO challenges shots much better, it's more active and amoeba like, and it gets into passing lanes better...the downside IMO being we have always struggled to rebound in the zone...but I doubt once Hop takes over he will recruit any differently, he will go after long athletic guys at every position and we will continue to play mostly zone. Go Orange!

And don't let me forget Andy R! He was one our first big guards in the top of the zone

The '96 FF team was the one that really turned the "zone" corner. (Before that, SU probably played more m2m than zone.)

Why the transition that year? Well, the coach said during that season that they were one of the slowest teams he had ever coached, especially with Z Sims and Cipolla at the guards.

and don't let me forget Andy R, he was one of the first big guards who consistently started challenging /contesting every shot. That guy was soo disruptive in the zone. Maybe only MCW was more disruptive in the top of the zone, but guys like that made our zone so much better IMO...

 

[Jasoncuse]

Unless Hop decides to start recruiting different types of athletes we won't be seeing a shift from the zone to man any time in the near future. The long, spindly forwards and bigger guards will continue to be recruited as zone defenders. If he does want to go heavily man, the recruiting will have to shift some over a couple of years.

 

[Jack Hall]

Unless Hop decides to start recruiting different types of athletes we won't be seeing a shift from the zone to man any time in the near future. The long, spindly forwards and bigger guards will continue to be recruited as zone defenders. If he does want to go heavily man, the recruiting will have to shift some over a couple of years.

Someone brought up a good pt above. yes JB gets all the credit for our zone, but it's been Hop for yrs and yrs who has been a lead recruiter. Obviously both he and JB have recruited very consciously for the zone. Hop deserves a ton of credit for our recent success obviously...

 

[billsin01]

The '96 FF team was the one that really turned the "zone" corner. (Before that, SU probably played more m2m than zone.)

Why the transition that year? Well, the coach said during that season that they were one of the slowest teams he had ever coached, especially with Z Sims and Cipolla at the guards.

How dare you leave janulis out of the discussion of painfully slow-footed guards. That's careless and insulting!

 

[Oakland]

With the current rules change, more teams likely to be zone

Seems like there is a lot more zone in college the last 10 years

 

[Jack Hall]

Seems like there is a lot more zone in college the last 10 years

But not a lot of it that's that good. To me the only really effective 2 3 zones I have seen in the last 30 yrs are ours and temples during the late Chaney era. I have seen some good junk defenses and 1 3 1 zones, but they are usually only effective for like 4-5 mins at a time. Unc and Williams impressed me last night. Late in the game they went zone, uab had no idea how Uniate their offense against it so the uab guy called a time out I think to call a play against the zone. Then unc comes out in trapping man to man and uab turned it over. Williams schooled his protege on that one but the protege got the last laugh...but pt being, other than SU every other team I have seen is only comfortable AND highly effective moving in and out of a zone , not just staying in it for extended periods...

 

[Dave85]

Quite sure he'll be back next year as he promised McCullough he'd be there to coach him.

The bigger question is will McCullough be there to BE coached!

 

[Jack Hall]

The bigger question is will McCullough be there to BE coached!

He tweeted that he found a new school, my guess is he shows up here. You have to remember he considered entering SU this yr. he must not have been doing too bad academically to have considered that...

 

[Jack Hall]

He tweeted that he found a new school, my guess is he shows up here. You have to remember he considered entering SU this yr. he must not have been doing too bad academically to have considered that...

I stand corrected, I follow him on twitter and I don't see that tweet anymore. But anyway on twitter he calls himself an Orangemen for whatever that's worth...I hope he pulls his head out and finds a new HS soon...

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Someone brought up a good pt above. yes JB gets all the credit for our zone, but it's been Hop for yrs and yrs who has been a lead recruiter. Obviously both he and JB have recruited very consciously for the zone. Hop deserves a ton of credit for our recent success obviously...

I don't get this obviously recruited for the zone stuff, and certainly not the years and years part. Because how does J Flynn resemble a zone recruit? The D in Devendorf had nothing to do with defense. P Harris hated the zone it was mutual. Rick Jackson and AO - nope and nope. BT and Dion - that would be a no and a no.

This entire fallacy is really built around MCW. Because it certainly does not explain DC2. Ennis not really either.

I still think offense rules. It's hard to get elite offense. You take it when you can get it. You think JB would turn down Briscoe and take Malachi instead?

 

[Dave85]

I don't get this obviously recruited for the zone stuff, and certainly not the years and years part. Because how does J Flynn resemble a zone recruit? The D in Devendorf had nothing to do with defense. P Harris hated the zone it was mutual. Rick Jackson and AO - nope and nope. BT and Dion - that would be a no and a no.

This entire fallacy is really built around MCW. Because it certainly does not explain DC2. Ennis not really either.

I still think offense rules. It's hard to get elite offense. You take it when you can get it. You think JB would turn down Briscoe and take Malachi instead?

A very thoughtful post. However, "fallacy" is pretty strong word to use when we are talking opinions about opinions.

It's obvious we need a good offense. But through the years the 2-3 zone defense has allowed us to win against superior man-to-man teams. For years I used to yell at the TV "go to man-to-man, go to man-to-man". But a couple of years ago I read an article where JB said he no longer practices man-to-man defense in practice. Nowadays, I just accept JBs logic for always playing 2-3 zone.

In terms of recruitment, it's not just size, length, and athleticism that makes our 2-3 zone superior. I think JB and the coaching staff have practice drills down to a science where players all shift in unison. There's a lot things about our 2-3 zone that come from weeks and weeks of practicing shifts in position, challenging shots, traps, and making steals in passing lanes. And of course, fast breaks as result of turnovers.

After 30+ years of watching Orange basketball when I watch other teams play it just doesn't look right to me unless I see a 2-3 zone defense. I sure hope when Coach Hop takes charge the tradition continues for many years to come!

 

[pfister1]

I don't get this obviously recruited for the zone stuff, and certainly not the years and years part. Because how does J Flynn resemble a zone recruit? The D in Devendorf had nothing to do with defense. P Harris hated the zone it was mutual. Rick Jackson and AO - nope and nope. BT and Dion - that would be a no and a no.

This entire fallacy is really built around MCW. Because it certainly does not explain DC2. Ennis not really either.

I still think offense rules. It's hard to get elite offense. You take it when you can get it. You think JB would turn down Briscoe and take Malachi instead?

I think people sometimes have an overinflated view of our recruiting success. We aren't a selector in that we don't just identify top 50 talent make an offer and get them. I think JB will take most top 50 level talents who are interested and then try to make them fit the system. We don't recruit guys like Harris, Flynn, Waiters, Devo, Coleman or Ennis because they fit the system. They are high, high quality players you recruit them because they have interest and can flat out play...you find a way to integrate them.

When we start recruiting the guys we ultimately land, how many of them are obvious "fits" for the system. I mean Grant was a 6'4"/5" forward when we started recruiting him wasn't he?

 

[Orange Barrel]

Two of my favorite myths that gained steam here last year:

1) Our bigs don't produce because the guards are freezing them out.

2) We recruit for the zone.

Nonsense. We recruit good basketball players. Trevor Cooney, anyone?

 

[cuseinseattle]

We will continue to play zone with a little full court press to speed up the flow of games like we do now. I would be shocked if we played man to man. Hopkins has been at Cuse forever and know the zone. What I'm wondering is when Coach K retires do you guys think that Duke will play the 2-3 zone 100% of the time?

 

[TinyManInside]

I don't get this obviously recruited for the zone stuff, and certainly not the years and years part. Because how does J Flynn resemble a zone recruit? The D in Devendorf had nothing to do with defense. P Harris hated the zone it was mutual. Rick Jackson and AO - nope and nope. BT and Dion - that would be a no and a no.

This entire fallacy is really built around MCW. Because it certainly does not explain DC2. Ennis not really either.

I still think offense rules. It's hard to get elite offense. You take it when you can get it. You think JB would turn down Briscoe and take Malachi instead?

The coaching staff DOES recruit with the zone in mind, this is an absolute fact, verified to me by a member of the staff. Everything is of course tempered by player availability (likeliness of getting a recruit), and there are players, such as the ones you mentioned, that JB would not/should not turn down regardless. But in particular they have a specific style of interchangeable 3/4 forward that they recruit and they target guys they think will play well on the wings.

 

[Dave85]

We will continue to play zone with a little full court press to speed up the flow of games like we do now.

I sure liked the way Villanova pressed Kansas last Friday night when Kansas was bringing the ball up. I thought it really helped them in the win. I am concerned how our players will do when they face Villanova's press.

 

[TinyManInside]

Whenever JB retires, Hopkins is going to inherit a team that has extensive zone experience, and zone is going to be his base defense. He is planning on being more versatile defensively than JB currently is (emphasis more on fullcourt press, halfcourt traps than mtm), but zone will remain the base by a wide margin.

 

[Jack Hall]

Two of my favorite myths that gained steam here last year:

1) Our bigs don't produce because the guards are freezing them out.

2) We recruit for the zone.

Nonsense. We recruit good basketball players. Trevor Cooney, anyone?

My quote was they recruit conscious of the zone. I did not say recruit solely for the zone. IMO tiny man summed up things very well

 

[Orange Barrel]

I did not say recruit solely for the zone.

Neither did I. I disagree with the concept in general. We recruit players of all shapes and sizes and talent levels. Which ones are the zone recruits? Do we pass on good players because the staff thinks they can't play zone? I seriously doubt it. I think we recruit based on talent and need.

 

[Jack Hall]

Neither did I. I disagree with the concept in general. We recruit players of all shapes and sizes and talent levels. Which ones are the zone recruits? Do we pass on good players because the staff thinks they can't play zone? I seriously doubt it. I think we recruit based on talent and need.

We agree to disagree. IMO guys like damone brown, hak, grant are all perfect for the zone. The coaches were v conscious of this. None of those guys were super highly rated recruits but we went after them. And they had great careers at SU, grant ongoing. In part because they fit SUs system IMO. Someone mentioned grant was 6 5 when we started recruiting him. Could be. But look at his whole nba family. They go 69 610 long and agile. Hop /JB knew what they were doing IMO...

 

[Orange Barrel]

We agree to disagree. IMO guys like damone brown, hak, grant are all perfect for the zone. The coaches were v conscious of this. None of those guys were super highly rated recruits but we went after them. And they had great careers at SU, grant ongoing. In part because they fit SUs system IMO. Someone mentioned grant was 6 5 when we started recruiting him. Could be. But look at his whole nba family. They go 69 610 long and agile. Hop /JB knew what they were doing IMO...

We were recruiting guys like that long before we were a zone team. Did we recruit Louis Orr for the zone?

 

[Sgt Cuse]

The coaching staff DOES recruit with the zone in mind, this is an absolute fact, verified to me by a member of the staff. Everything is of course tempered by player availability (likeliness of getting a recruit), and there are players, such as the ones you mentioned, that JB would not/should not turn down regardless. But in particular they have a specific style of interchangeable 3/4 forward that they recruit and they target guys they think will play well on the wings.

How has this been done? I can see that there would be mutual appeal to long athletic wings.

I still think overall talent rules. DC2, Ennis, and Cooney do not fit a zone D concept.

I think the staff would be thrilled to bring in Briscoe. The zone would be a secondary consideration.

Imagine that, after one of our best defensive efforts a member of the staff claims they recruit for the zone. Bet you didn't hear that line after they landed Flynn though.

 

[Jack Hall]

We were recruiting guys like that long before we were a zone team. Did we recruit Louis Orr for the zone?

Can't argue w that but what I see is that the zone has gotten much better since the early 90s. Part is because JB has become the recognized guru on zones since Cheney retired and part IMO because the coAching staff has better recruited for JBS defense. Would make sense if it's the only defense you play...no?

 

[Orange Barrel]

IMO because the coAching staff has better recruited for JBS defense. Would make sense if it's the only defense you play...no?

I think they recruit players. I've already mentioned Cooney. McCroskey, GMac, Hart, Andy Rautins, Flynn, Harris, AO, Scoop, Dion, Ricky Jackson are all somewhat recent players who don't fit the "recruiting for zone" argument. And that's just off the top of my head.