how many years do we have to pretend

[jr4750]

Thought this was interesting given this conversation. Not SU related but tangential.

 

[OrangePA]

This thread is outstanding! We are a car rental tracker/private jet tracker post away from the Dan Mullen thread last year. Congrats all!

My 2c ( sorry for the plagiarism kcsu)
- Given how much money a 20k average attendance would pull in, it seems idiotic that SU admins would not be invested in getting hoops right. Too much money on the line.
- This is Dino all over again. The main difference is Dino had a hc track record and was a good hire at the time. But he exposed himself as in over his head once his qb he lucked into graduated. We took the chance on Red without evidence and it seems like he has exposed himself.
- I don’t know what people expect, but much like Dino I expect Red to get to the final year of his contract because the program won’t want to buy him out and hire another top coach. I expect 2 more years of Red after this even if the bottom falls out. Remember… the bottom did fall out for Dino and he got two years after that because of his but out.
- There is no way Red has a negative performance clause in his contract… I’m sure he gets a bonus for hitting certain milestones and he could get fired for personal conduct or team/player conduct, but no one in their right mind signs a contract that would let them get fired based on wins. There would need to be a negotiated buyout.
- What I would expect to see is Red encouraged to hire a really good coach from outside the program. The AD did this with football with the UVA guys. Then Red will get two more years to prove it and then they will either extend him or fire him going into the last year.

From a playing standpoint I think Red was moving on from Carlos but JJ getting hurt stopped that. My biggest concern outside of all the program issues is the lack of any defining system either in offense or defense. That only works if you have much more talent than the other team. To beat the dead horse… it really does look like Red just rolls the ball out.

The Autry-Babers comparison is tough

 

[Cuse1055]

Because Melo wants his son to be on a good team and has money for NIL.

Problem is all the NIL money in the world and talent upgrade doesn’t always negate coaching.

 

[OrangeFoo]

The Autry-Babers comparison is tough

Tough on whom? Babers or Autry… in both cases I see memes and platitudes and coaches without any really plan beyond that. The issues with hoops were all there last year but covered up by better talent. Just like football where we saw the same problems year after year.

“Orange is the new fast” meet “the Orange Standard”.

 

[Bayside44]

Tough on whom? Babers or Autry… in both cases I see memes and platitudes and coaches without any really plan beyond that. The issues with hoops were all there last year but covered up by better talent. Just like football where we saw the same problems year after year.

“Orange is the new fast” meet “the Orange Standard”.

Dino came here to be gone in three years. The hoops guys have a whole infrastructure to rebuild. It's not nearly the same.

 

[Sbucketball]

I draft and litigate contracts for a living. I’m dying to see Red’s contract. A five year term?? For a guy who would have taken the job for free? Maybe it’s just a confidence boost - cant have a big buy out, maybe has termination for convenience, or termination for not hitting thresholds? I cant imagine the university didnt enter anything other than a lopsided contract that gives it the power. There was no reason for anything else in this case. It’s not like they were trying to entice an established coach away from another program. I havent seen it, but I dont think any of us should assume we’re stuck under the contract even if it’s a five year term. And if someone has seen it and says we are stuck, then we have an entirely different problem.

 

[MikeSU02]

Dino came here to be gone in three years. The hoops guys have a whole infrastructure to rebuild. It's not nearly the same.

A destroyed infrastructure that he was part of.

He and Dino aren’t apples to apples, but let’s not absolve Red of having to clean up a mess that he at least stood on the sidelines for.

 

[Hopkins16]

Why is it all going wrong? Is it really the coaching or the talent or a combination of both? From a coaching perspective, could a creative and top notch coach such as the likes of Pitino, Hurley, Oats, Self, Smart etc. figure out how to make this roster work?

We've seen coaches go to a team and motivate the players and instantly make the team better and competitive even if the win/loss column isn't good. It's the fight, competitiveness and the noticeably desire to give it all and improve that is impressive, which I do not see with this team.

If at some point we move on from Coach Red, it is imperative that we go outside of "the family" and bring in a veteran top notch respected coach. We are not a program that kids are clamoring to go to because of recent success such as Duke, North Carolina or Kentucky. Those schools can hire from within because other than Coach Pope, Davis and Scheyer were assistants to legendary coaches whose programs were strong and vibrant when they took the helm. They were groomed in a winning culture. We need a fresh start with a coach that can build something at the level of the teams I mentioned, and when he retires, only then we can select an assistant or associate coach from "the family" to take the helm.

 

[atlanticuse]

Thought this was interesting given this conversation. Not SU related but tangential.

I thought Hubert was a dumb decision by UNC, but he went to the Natty final his first year - sorry, "wasn't his team" right?

And he was ranked preseason...

 

[atlanticuse]

Why is it all going wrong? Is it really the coaching or the talent or a combination of both? From a coaching perspective, could a creative and top notch coach such as the likes of Pitino, Hurley, Oats, Self, Smart etc. figure out how to make this roster work?

Those coaches will (could) be a destination for recruits - and now more importantly, transfers.
They also know how to assemble a roster, coach a roster, improve players (albeit in a MUCH compressed timeframe compared with 5, 10, 25 years ago)... and win.

Red has proven that he can recruit. And then?

 

[atlanticuse]

A destroyed infrastructure that he was part of.

He and Dino aren’t apples to apples, but let’s not absolve Red of having to clean up a mess that he at least stood on the sidelines for.

this has been my point from the beginning.
Anyone saying it "wasn't his team" has failed to read a single recruiting site, in which "lead recruiter" was listed as none other than "Adrian Autry".
In his defense, it's not easy "doing" after "seeing". Just because you're support staff, doesn't mean you can run the whole show. Not an indictment of him. Not sure I have an answer on how Nick Saban went from grad assistant > OLB > LB (hat tip to Syracuse) > DB > DC > HC. Because I sure as hell couldn't do it.

But something is way off with HCAA (HCRA?). And watching the sidelines and body language during games - heck, last year when the inmates ran the asylum - tells me this (he) is not long for the program.

 

[sufandu]

Needed to get completely away from JB, now it's to late.

Actually, it isn't. One more year of purgatory and getting completely away from JB is 100% justified. Had we gone outside and that guy flopped, it would've been worse than what we're having from a perception standpoint.

 

[sufandu]

If people are really honest, we should have moved on from JB 5 years sooner then we did, second he should not have had a say in who was taking over. Now we have this mess, we are a shell of our former selves, and this appears to be heading to an all time sh$&ty season. Having to endure this for another two years would be a travesty. I never ever thought I’d be more excited for spring football to arrive 4 months from now then a basketball season in the month of December, yet here I am.

If we're being completely honest, JB should've taken a page from the book of his buddy Jim Calhoun and known when to step aside voluntarily. He should've wanted to watch his kids play from the stands instead of the sideline.

 

[kcsu]

Your echoing what I've been saying. Su absolutely gave JB a position to smooth things over, 100%. The issue was that JB still had many loyalists within the BOT and within SU, the decision to move on wasn't close to unanimous and was highly contentious. Hiring Red was the only way to make moving on a reality

spot on. Truth

 

[kcsu]

Why is it all going wrong? Is it really the coaching or the talent or a combination of both? From a coaching perspective, could a creative and top notch coach such as the likes of Pitino, Hurley, Oats, Self, Smart etc. figure out how to make this roster work?

We've seen coaches go to a team and motivate the players and instantly make the team better and competitive even if the win/loss column isn't good. It's the fight, competitiveness and the noticeably desire to give it all and improve that is impressive, which I do not see with this team.

If at some point we move on from Coach Red, it is imperative that we go outside of "the family" and bring in a veteran top notch respected coach. We are not a program that kids are clamoring to go to because of recent success such as Duke, North Carolina or Kentucky. Those schools can hire from within because other than Coach Pope, Davis and Scheyer were assistants to legendary coaches whose programs were strong and vibrant when they took the helm. They were groomed in a winning culture. We need a fresh start with a coach that can build something at the level of the teams I mentioned, and when he retires, only then we can select an assistant or associate coach from "the family" to take the helm.

We will after next season unless Red turns it around.

 

[richard levy]

You forgot one important fact look how the transition to those coaches was handled. The family Invitational set this program back years. Its easy to win when you have talent

"its easy to win when you have talent." No, its not

 

[emjkay]

Jay Bilas would bring credibility back to the program. He has the College BB knowledge and would get immediate respect from players which appears Autry has lost.

 

[Cuse1055]

Jay Bilas would bring credibility back to the program. He has the College BB knowledge and would get immediate respect from players which appears Autry has lost.

Pretty sure Jay would NEVER EVER be interested in coaching considering the job he has currently.

 

[Bayside44]

A destroyed infrastructure that he was part of.

He and Dino aren’t apples to apples, but let’s not absolve Red of having to clean up a mess that he at least stood on the sidelines for.

That's not really how it works but you'll never give so moving on.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Supposedly reasonable people lie about being agnostic on a coach who needs to get fired
gotta give him time to get his guys
install his own system
uphill battle for him, have you seen the shower heads , other schools have much better water pressure
bumps in the road learning on the job
is it time yet?
no not yet
ok gotta see how the young players grow it's all about development
is it time yet?
yeah now it can be said
well sure it was an obvious mistake and the writing was on the wall the whole time

7

 

[MikeSU02]

That's not really how it works but you'll never give so moving on.

First, your point needs to be clarified that it’s not how it works *at Syracuse*, in your opinion, unless you’re ascribing that same point to every program, which you wouldn’t be able to know.

Second, the evidence so far is showing that Red taking over has not stopped our downward spiral. So whatever his role as a coach was during our downturn with JB isn’t changing the program’s trajectory after his ascension to HC.

 

[emjkay]

Pretty sure Jay would NEVER EVER be interested in coaching considering the job he has currently.

Yes,,,odds would be astronomically high he wouldn't,,, Cuse BB needs a high profile, knowledgeable and energetic person like that to breathe life back to a program that has been regressing for years

 

[two3zone]

If
If we're being completely honest, JB should've taken a page from the book of his buddy Jim Calhoun and known when to step aside voluntarily. He should've wanted to watch his kids play from the stands instead of the sideline.

His doesn't get to watch his son in the NBA if he did that.

 

[OrangePA]

Tough on whom? Babers or Autry… in both cases I see memes and platitudes and coaches without any really plan beyond that. The issues with hoops were all there last year but covered up by better talent. Just like football where we saw the same problems year after year.

“Orange is the new fast” meet “the Orange Standard”.

the differences between the two and their head coaching careers are pretty self evident

 

[sufandu]

His doesn't get to watch his son in the NBA if he did that.

Why?