How much of the slow start stuff is on Scoop?

[OttoinGrotto]

It occurred to me today that the bigger problem with the offense at the beginning of the game has less to do with Scoop and more to do with Rak Christmas.

Thoughts?

 

[Upstate]

The less we hear about scoop, the better. That means he is running the offense and giving his teammates good chances to score.

 

[orangefan13]

I think the difference will be.....
Dion will make Triche better in the halfcourt as the year goes along. Scoop will not.

Why? Because Triche will thrive better next to a score first PG. It will light a fire in him, and much of the pressure he feels will be gone.

CJ had a very rough game against Stanford. He wasn't much if any better then Xmas.

 

[rrlbees]

I think the difference will be.....
Dion will make Triche better in the halfcourt as the year goes along. Scoop will not.

Why? Because Triche will thrive better next to a score first PG. It will light a fire in him, and much of the pressure he feels will be gone.

CJ had a very rough game against Stanford. He wasn't much if any better then Xmas.

Except that when they are on the court together Triche is the PG. Them having success together isn't due to what you are saying.

Sent from my DROIDX

 

[orangefan13]

Triche is better off with less isolation, more cuts to the basket rolls, open threes, and the occasional break his guy down drive.

True PG's run isolation, Triche is a non isolation scorer like Andy Rautins.
Hes not going to break his guy down like Devendorf or pop a three in his guys face.
and take them left for a layup 3-4 times a game.

Your asking Triche to be a Devendorf scorer if you start Scoop. Same results as last year, just trade KJO for Rick.:bang:Oh Lord

PG is based on who guards you not who has the ball in their hands.

If every team decides to guard Guard A by letting him blow by them, but decides to not let Guard B get past their matchup defender then Guard A is the point guard. Whether Guard A Passes first or not.

 

[Francis03]

Agreed. CJ definitely needs to to be starting , because Rak at this point as everybody can see is providing next to nothing on offense.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I think the difference will be.....
Dion will make Triche better in the halfcourt as the year goes along. Scoop will not.

Why? Because Triche will thrive better next to a score first PG. It will light a fire in him, and much of the pressure he feels will be gone.

CJ had a very rough game against Stanford. He wasn't much if any better then Xmas.

CJ 10 points, 6 rebs and basically recovered the ball out of a scrum and hit the shot that won the game (while getting fouled and then hitting the FT). I'd say he contributed a little more than Xmas and his 0 pts, 1 reb.

 

[Ghost]

CJ 10 points, 6 rebs and basically recovered the ball out of a scrum and hit the shot that won the game (while getting fouled and then hitting the FT). I'd say he contributed a little more than Xmas and his 0 pts, 1 reb.

Huge CJ fan, but I thought he played a pretty weak game yesterday. Like everyone else he picked up after the press was put on, but I haven't seen anyone fumble the ball that often in one game in a long time. He had a serious case of butter fingers.

 

[rrlbees]

PG is based on who guards you not who has the ball in their hands.

Um...no.

Sent from my DROIDX

 

[rstone7727]

PG is based on who guards you not who has the ball in their hands.

Just saw bee's reply to this and was kind of surprised at the comment myself. Always thought the pg brought the ball down court and he was responsible for distributing the ball and running the offense.

 

[arbitragegls]

Believe the concern here is that Scoop does not get the offense into a flow fast enough. If you look at the combinations, Scoop and whomever, the flow slows down. This is because:
1. Scoop is not fast
2. Scoop has tendency to dribble to much running time off of clock which takes aways from other people either touching ball or having time to set shot
3. Scoop does not make the best decisions with the ball...take yesterday...14 pts, 4 assts, 6 TOs and according to our statistician he was down the list on NPs
Waiters and Triche pass quicker, dribble less, and provide more touches to those on court.
4. Believe the above is why Triche-Waiters have been guards on floor in last two games when it counted.

This does not mean Triche is a better PG than Scoop, but rather he has some traits that are superior to Scoop that would allow the team to get off quicker...I would start Triche at PG with Waiters at 2-g and then have Scoop off the bench...he did this before quite well and we could use him that way again.

 

[orangefan13]

Um...no.

Sent from my DROIDX

Your saying it like its a fact, its not.

There isn't many True PG's around anymore.

KJO, CJ, Southerland can bring the ball downcourt and throw a perimeter pass. Does that make them a PG? Gerry could do the same does that make him a PG? Do Melo and Keita become a PG in the halfcourt because they can come out to the three point line and throw a perimeter pass like Triche?

Protecting the ball makes them a PG?? Then why don't teams press us to death while Scoop isn't in. Look, teams aren't stopping guys like Dion or Paul Harris bringing the ball down the floor. They will blow by and get a transition bucket. Does that make them PG's? Triche would slow it up and give us less chance to make a transition bucket.

Rautins is being looked at by the knicks as a PG right now. He played 0 minutes of PG here. Zero. Tony Douglas in the same light is a PG. But hes a shooter thats what he does. Hes a SG that plays point.

True PG's are guys like Deron Williams, Derick Rose, Jonny Flynn, Edelin. Guys with blow by speed, or superior physical bodies to beable to hesitate in the lane while not picking up their dribble. Something Triche doesn't do, but Dion can.
Guys who can face opponents 45 degrees instead of face on and switch directions left and right without picking up their dribble are PG's.
Jordan in the same light was a PG he was able to run circles around people without picking up his dribble. We haven't had a PG to do that since Flynn. Not even Scoop. Whens the last time you saw scoop drive come back out to the three point line and go back into the lane?

MCW's right now is one of the best passers and it is not a stretch to say the best passer we have ever had. But, the jury is out if he will be more like one of those.
His dribble is really high, but can he change direction or find enough speed, and hesitate in the lane to be a true PG.

Guys like Wade, Billups, Douglas, Gmac, Devendorf, JR Smith, and the such are more of SG's then PG's.

Dion is more of a PG then Triche and it has nothing to do with his scoring mentallity. It has to do with his ability to blow by hesitate and sidestep in the lane without picking up his dribble. I agree hes not the best hesitator but his superior lateral dribbling skill to get his defender off balence is ahead of Triches . It has nothign to do with scoring never did. Pg's don't have to distribute. If teams cut all the passing lanes its better they don't try to force it no matter how good of a passer they are.

I would agree though Triche does have some PG skills. But, hes best off right now as a Rautins like scorer behind AO and Wes or KJO/Wes as the third option. Not as our Starting SG and second scoring option like Devendorf. Hes just not that kind of scorer yet.

 

[EastCoast2]

I really think we'd be a better team if Scoop were just not allowed to shoot the ball. It's not a knock on Scoop as much as being a matter of being a much better team when Scoop is distributing and setting up others instead of taking fade away threes

 

[rrlbees]

I agree there are PG's that are really SG's. But this is a pointless debate because when you said who defends you determines who is the PG, told me you have a totally different definition of a PG.

 

[EastCoast2]

It's almost as if when BT or DW scores, Scoop feels like he needs to score and forces a bad shot. When Scoop is good Scoop, we're damn near unbeatable

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

My opinion, you guys are just really really greedy. We are fans, it's allowed, but that doesn't mean we are going to get what we want (at least not when we want it).

Seems to me we have two different debates going on. First, we are taking too long to hit our stride for the liking of many. Two, we have this great depth and everyone should play. Well, here's the deal, the two issues are complete polar opposites. You guys want to see everyone play, well, it's going to take time for JB to figure out the best way to make that happen. A lot of these guys haven't come close to their potential yet, and are not used to being role players. You are going to have to give it time. Rak has to start and get his foot in the door. Scoop has to start for chemistry sake. MCW, Southerland, and Baye need to come off the bench and immediately contribute something to stay in the game. It's not rocket science, but it does take patience.

 

[orangefan13]

That is Fair . Its not about me being right or wrong, can care less really what I said.
I do care about efficiency though.

I do feel Triche being our second scoring option will show much lower efficiency results as the season goes on. And I will eat crow for my guess if Triche finally steps up to be more of a Devo then a Rautins. That would suprise me.

But, maybe Dion being guarded by PG's instead of SG's will hurt some of Dions game in the long run as well. Anticipation of what the opponents defense will give us in the halfcourt offense, and the ability to transform to that is everything.

Everything matters, from what side of the court Dion drives on, to where the guys he can dish to are, to what side the guys he can dish to are on, to how fast they can go up. Even where the secondary defenders are at.

Thats how we lose in March guys like Scoop, Rick, go cold(senior or not) because oppenents play good defense and we don't always have the ability to transform when they do.

I feel CJ, Southerland, Xmas, MCW, and Baye right not are not scoring 6th men right now, so I can see why people like Dion there. I just hope JB, listens to coaches, fans, Scouts,the players, himself and finds his best efficiency.
couchburn.

 

[kuethstheman]

Tough to say, considering our slow starts last at least 20 minutes and usually longer, during which time 10 guys play.

It occurred to me today that the bigger problem with the offense at the beginning of the game has less to do with Scoop and more to do with Rak Christmas.

Thoughts?

 

[Dick_in_MI]

PG is based on who guards you not who has the ball in their hands.

If every team decides to guard Guard A by letting him blow by them, but decides to not let Guard B get past their matchup defender then Guard A is the point guard. Whether Guard A Passes first or not.

This simply is not true on a number of levels

 

[Cusee44]

As a 5th year, you have no excuse for the level of inconsistencies that we see with Scoop. He's an average college guard and will definitely not play at the next level. I hope he has a legitimate backup plan because there won't be many of us that'll still talk about him after graduation.

 

[orangefan13]

This simply is not true on a number of levels

I love how people call me wrong but never say why. It happens all the time like three times in this thread. Yet I give legit facts on stuff.

I find it entertaining.

If its so wrong then what are we Princeton pass it around the perimeter and shoot a three?

Its simple math. you get the ball to your isolation threat if he is the guy to make the pass to another player off the dribble then he is the point guard/forward. If he gets it to a guy who makes a outstanding quick second dish pass for a easy bucket inside its like hockey you get a secondary assist.

All this protecting the ball while dribbling garbage is overated.

 

[orangefan13]

Just saw bee's reply to this and was kind of surprised at the comment myself. Always thought the pg brought the ball down court and he was responsible for distributing the ball and running the offense.

Yes to you get the ball in the halfcourt offense. Then whoever moves the ball by dribbling is.

 

[timkay99]

Believe the concern here is that Scoop does not get the offense into a flow fast enough. If you look at the combinations, Scoop and whomever, the flow slows down. This is because:
1. Scoop is not fast
2. Scoop has tendency to dribble to much running time off of clock which takes aways from other people either touching ball or having time to set shot
3. Scoop does not make the best decisions with the ball...take yesterday...14 pts, 4 assts, 6 TOs and according to our statistician he was down the list on NPs
Waiters and Triche pass quicker, dribble less, and provide more touches to those on court.
4. Believe the above is why Triche-Waiters have been guards on floor in last two games when it counted.

This does not mean Triche is a better PG than Scoop, but rather he has some traits that are superior to Scoop that would allow the team to get off quicker...I would start Triche at PG with Waiters at 2-g and then have Scoop off the bench...he did this before quite well and we could use him that way again.

I want to phrase this delicately. This team does not have a PG. They have 3 guards who are all combo guards. Last year, Scoop was the PG. He had the ball in his hands and ran all the plays. This year, all 3 guards have done it and all 3 have done it with each of them on the floor.

Not sure that Scoop isn't fast. He gets out in transition quickly. About the same as the other G's, IMO.

# 2, Scoop did last year. Haven't seen it this year. To me, Scoop has almost been too unselfish with the ball. If his percentages stay where they are now, right where we need him to be besides free throws. He has made the extra pass.

# 3, is people just wanting to see it. Waiters is the best looking at stats this year, then Scoop, then Triche. All 3 are guilty of forcing things. This year, all 3 have made similar bad decisions.

Triche-Waiters have been on the floor when it counted b/c they are the best scorers of the guards.
Team slow starts has to do with a lot of mixing/matching. I mean, all the players struggled in the 1st half. Southerland got shots, Fair had jumpers he usually makes. It is something deeper then who the PG is. Might be rotating Rak and MCW in for all we know (players know they are coming out no matter what in the 1st half?)

 

[AlaskaSU]

JB is not going to replace Scoop in the starting line up, nor should he. Waters is getting good minutes and will continue to do so. He has become our best guard but Scoop is still our best ball handler. His turnovers come from risky passes, but his pocket is seldom picked. Triche scares me when he brings the ball up. It takes all his effort to get across the mid-court line and the opponent determines where he will end up. Scoop brings it up fairly effortlessly and gets to where ever he wants to go. Granted that Waiters is more dynamic and has made some sharp down low dishes off the drive. Scoop will determine how many minutes he gets but his starting position is set. Slow starts don't matter per say. It depends on how the team is doing compared to the other team. If we fall behind early, Scoop will evolve into a token starter.

 

[Niastri]

Agreed. CJ definitely needs to to be starting , because Rak at this point as everybody can see is providing next to nothing on offense.

Just like any other year, JB is starting his young huge talented stud freshman in front of his more savvy experienced slight sophmore... The guy who actually produces is more important than the other guy. However, having Christmas game ready is critical, even if Fair takes all the minutes. There will be a game where Melo and Keita are both done.

We would have used Riley heavily this year. I think Christmas probably finds another school if Riley is still here. While their talents are not duplicated, they both fill the third big man role nicely. I think JB is being nice by letting Christmas learn the power forward rather than playing center. I imagine he has started allowing Hopkins to give very limited recruiting promises. So far, his promise to Christmas has been fulfilled. You will start as a freshman. You will not play long if you aren't ready.

Christmas is a very good physical talent. He is not nearly as good as Fair, and he needs to learn how to play better. He needs to learn how to play Bigger. And he will. Christmas has started every game and just got his first taste of bigger, stronger competition. If we had Onuaku or Jackson around, he could learn faster, but our skinny Melo and Keita don't teach him to bang enough. Especially consider what will happen if he plays against Fair and Joseph every day in practice. The big thinks he is supposed to guard these quick guys out on the wing. And then a Stanford Caveman busts him in the mouth...