Howard and Battle

[RF2044]

I disagree about FH playing more off the ball if Tyus leaves. We have way too many 2's for him to do that. He might play some 2, absolutely, but need to find time for Hughes, Buddy and Howard Washington. HW does not plan on taking a shirt. Maybe Hughes plays some 3? JB is really going to have to reconsider how he gives out playing time. Good luck with that.

Let's just assume for this discussion that Battle is gone. Barring the unforeseen, I really see only two viable options for who starts / plays the most minutes -- either Frank and Hughes, in a big backcourt tailor made for zone, or Frank and Carey.

If its the bigger tandem, then Frank will benefit from having a guy who is reportedly more of a natural ball handler, passer, and penetrator than Battle. Frank would still be the point, but some of the pressure would be spread out. If Carey starts, then it doesn't really matter what you [not "you" specifically, Iommi -- talking in general] call either guard -- Frank isn't a pure point, and neither is Carey. Both can handle, pass, and shoot. Both would have the ball in their hands a lot. Both could initiate the offense, or push it in transition when such opportunities arise.

I'm kind of hoping for the latter pairing. And I think that Frank had a pretty darn good year -- and that he'd really benefit from having a guy who CAN turn the corner, get into the lane to attack defenses, etc. in ways that he and Battle cannot. Carey can do those things. Carey wouldn't predominate the ball playing alongside an experienced guard like Frank, the way Frank does this year. Frank's play making responsibilities might go from 95% this year only down to 80% [to your point], just as a function of having other creators out there. And in my opinion, that would be good for Frank's efficiency. He might end up being a much more effective, clutch player just by having his work load reduced a bit by being surrounded by other capable guards that take some of the pressure off of him in terms of running the team's halfcourt offensive sets - a responsibility which doesn't play to his strengths.

And of course, Bazley being such a natural ball handler / gifted passer is going to bring a dimension to the offense that was completely lacking this season. So it isn't just Hughes / Carey who could take some of the pressure of of Frank.

 

[newmexicuse]

I think only once was the ball stolen from him last night.

Not sure where they all came from, but Frank had 7 TOs and even if the ball wasn't stolen from him outright, he was extremely susceptible to their traps forcing him into mistakes.

 

[chugg21]

Don’t worry, we’ll be fine and so will Frank. If JB plays him 32+ minutes at PG then he feels that gives us the best chance at being successful.

Sure hope so because he ended the ACC tourney with 12 turnovers and 9 assists. He barely functions against heavy pressure.

 

[iommi]

Let's just assume for this discussion that Battle is gone. Barring the unforeseen, I really see only two viable options for who starts / plays the most minutes -- either Frank and Hughes, in a big backcourt tailor made for zone, or Frank and Carey.

If its the bigger tandem, then Frank will benefit from having a guy who is reportedly more of a natural ball handler, passer, and penetrator. Frank would still be the point, but some of the pressure would be spread out. If Carey starts, then it doesn't really matter what you [not "you" specifically, Iommi -- talking in general] call either guard -- Frank isn't a pure point, and neither is Carey. Both can handle, pass, and shoot. Both would have the ball in their hands a lot.

I'm kind of hoping for the latter pairing. And I think that Frank had a pretty darn good year -- and that he'd really benefit from having a guy who CAN turn the corner, get into the lane to attack defenses, etc. in ways that he cannot. Carey can do those things. Carey wouldn't predominate the ball playing alongside an experienced guard like Frank, the way Frank does this year. Frank's play making responsibilities might go from 95% this year only down to 80% [to your point], just as a function of having other creators out there. And in my opinion, that would be good for Frank's efficiency. He might end up being a much more effective, clutch player just by having his work load reduced a bit by being surrounded by other capable guards that take a little bit of pressure off of him in terms of shouldering the entire load of having to run the team's halfcourt offensive sets, which doesn't play to his strengths.

Great post. My issue/concern is that JB is going to give the reigns to Frank. With it will come his dicey handle and decision-making. Again, Frank has improved. Take away the UNC debacle and he even cut down significantly on his turnovers down the stretch. Still I'm not comfortable with Frank Howard as THE leader of our offense. Carey is a dynamic scorer. He's not a polished PG. With the exception of his ability to go left and right and finish better at the rim, Carey is very similar to Tyus. The jury is out how Carey will be defensively. Tyus has been a tremendous zone defender overall. To me, we are back right where we are this year for the most part.

Throw in Hughes and Buddy, though, and the backcourt picture looks much better. I'm really interested to see if HW redshirts. That's not his outlook but we will see when he's able to resume full basketball activities.

 

[iommi]

Not sure where they all came from, but Frank had 7 TOs and even if the ball wasn't stolen from him outright, he was extremely susceptible to their traps forcing him into mistakes.

...and bogging down the offense. Sometimes a dicey handle just takes time off the shot clock.

 

[newmexicuse]

Let's just assume for this discussion that Battle is gone. Barring the unforeseen, I really see only two viable options for who starts / plays the most minutes -- either Frank and Hughes, in a big backcourt tailor made for zone, or Frank and Carey.

If its the bigger tandem, then Frank will benefit from having a guy who is reportedly more of a natural ball handler, passer, and penetrator. Frank would still be the point, but some of the pressure would be spread out. If Carey starts, then it doesn't really matter what you [not "you" specifically, Iommi -- talking in general] call either guard -- Frank isn't a pure point, and neither is Carey. Both can handle, pass, and shoot. Both would have the ball in their hands a lot.

I'm kind of hoping for the latter pairing. And I think that Frank had a pretty darn good year -- and that he'd really benefit from having a guy who CAN turn the corner, get into the lane to attack defenses, etc. in ways that he and Battle cannot. Carey can do those things. Carey wouldn't predominate the ball playing alongside an experienced guard like Frank, the way Frank does this year. Frank's play making responsibilities might go from 95% this year only down to 80% [to your point], just as a function of having other creators out there. And in my opinion, that would be good for Frank's efficiency. He might end up being a much more effective, clutch player just by having his work load reduced a bit by being surrounded by other capable guards that take some of the pressure off of him in terms of running the team's halfcourt offensive sets - a responsibility which doesn't play to his strengths.

Nice discussion, but on this year's team James Harden could not have turned the corner. In order to turn the corner a certain amount of spacing is required. This year, aside from questionable schemes, we did not have the supplementary players to keep the D's honest so guards could turn the corner. Next season that may change.

Oshae will need to develop a bit of a mid-range game & get more consistent from three range. Baz sounds like the ideal guy to draw defenders away from the guards. With spacing maybe Sid or Chuk will be perceived as more of a down low threat. That is not to mention that if Ty comes back, probably Hughes or him might get some SF minutes. Marek will need to extend his range out a few feet and more importantly get a quicker trigger on his release.

Carey is the biggest wildcard if he can add effective speed to the backcourt and things actually open up then we may have something.

None of these things are in the bag, but all are reasonable progressions.

 

[RF2044]

...and bogging down the offense. Sometimes a dicey handle just takes time off the shot clock.

It will be really, really nice to have a bevy of ball handlers who can make things happen, not just Frank / Battle.

Next year's starting lineup could feature Frank, Carey, Bazley who can all handle and pass -- what a difference. And Hughes / Brissett / Dolezaj [to a lesser extent] as complimentary guys.

I'd expect the offense to be a LOT different next season. Way more versatility, way less standing around, way less focus on 1 or 2 guys making things happen.

 

[Madbiker]

But his loose handle slows us down. Time is wasted in our possessions because he's not able to be authoritative with his dribble. His handle isn't awful, and it was slightly improved this year but it's still dodgy. His biggest improvement was with his jumper, so I expect him to make some small strides with his handle. That said, he's better suited as a wing and because we need a PG, that's what he will be.

Carey is a better player but Frank will be a senior and JB will lean on that experience.

All the reports I've seen say Carey isn't a true PG. More of a SG who has been pressed into playing PG for his high school team because of injury this year. I don't get why we seem to have stopped recruiting true PGs.

 

[Madbiker]

We have no pure point guard and no one that consistently can beat their man off the dribble against good competition. It's a bad recipe for running any offensive set, especially one predicated heavily on Iso basketball. What we have are two big shooting guards, who I would have liked to have seen posting up periodically this year, but I digress

Amazing to me that we never tried to post Frank up against Berry despite his 5" height advantage. Frank could not drive past Berry at all. Coaching??

 

[Cusesky8214]

Amazing to me that we never tried to post Frank up against Berry despite his 5" height advantage. Frank could not drive past Berry at all. Coaching??

We did once...frank backed him down a bit and then tried a jumper over him and missed. The end.

 

[iommi]

All the reports I've seen say Carey isn't a true PG. More of a SG who has been pressed into playing PG for his high school team because of injury this year. I don't get why we seem to have stopped recruiting true PGs.

He's a scoring guard 100%. The ball was in his hands a lot before the point guard went down but yes, he's not a pass-first traditional point guard.

Howard Washington is a traditional point guard but he could barely sniff the court because I guess Frank Howard is all-world or something and couldn't use the occasional few minutes of rest.

 

[iommi]

It will be really, really nice to have a bevy of ball handlers who can make things happen, not just Frank / Battle.

Next year's starting lineup could feature Frank, Carey, Bazley who can all handle and pass -- what a difference. And Hughes / Brissett / Dolezaj [to a lesser extent] as complimentary guys.

I'd expect the offense to be a LOT different next season. Way more versatility, way less standing around, way less focus on 1 or 2 guys making things happen.

I know some people are saying Hughes will start (and that might turn out to be the case) but to me he seems like the ideal candidate for a solid bench role, where he can spark us. Maybe JB looks at him in practice and thinks he needs to start after a year in the program. Regardless, we should have plenty of depth and versatility. How Buddy factors in, I'm not sure. Obviously we need shooting but it's tough to plug in a guy for limited minutes and expect him to get into a shooting groove. And if he plays a lot off the bench, who sits?

 

[RF2044]

All the reports I've seen say Carey isn't a true PG. More of a SG who has been pressed into playing PG for his high school team because of injury this year. I don't get why we seem to have stopped recruiting true PGs.

There is definitely some validity to that, as Iommi points out above.

But people also need to keep in mind that when players are the best athlete / best player at the high school level, they often shoot / score at a different level than how they'll project to the collegiate level.

In all likelihood, nobody is ever going to confuse Carey with Sherman Douglas in terms of playmaking. But he might compare favorably to say, Jonny Flynn, who was also a scoring point. The key for Carey will be how well he shows that he can make the transition from being primarily a scorer to being a guy who can run a team AND score.

 

[RF2044]

I know some people are saying Hughes will start (and that might turn out to be the case) but to me he seems like the ideal candidate for a solid bench role, where he can spark us. Maybe JB looks at him in practice and thinks he needs to start after a year in the program. Regardless, we should have plenty of depth and versatility. How Buddy factors in, I'm not sure. Obviously we need shooting but it's tough to plug in a guy for limited minutes and expect him to get into a shooting groove. And if he plays a lot off the bench, who sits?

No doubt -- Hughes's role will be a huge question mark heading into next season.

Whether he starts or comes off the bench, guys like Hughes who can play 2 positions help to mask a lack of depth. We could have really used him this year.

 

[iommi]

There is definitely some validity to that, as Iommi points out above.

But people also need to keep in mind that when players are the best athlete / best player at the high school level, they often shoot / score at a different level than how they'll project to the collegiate level.

In all likelihood, nobody is ever going to confuse Carey with Sherman Douglas in terms of playmaking. But he might compare favorably to say, Jonny Flynn, who was also a scoring point. The key for Carey will be how well he shows that he can make the transition from being primarily a scorer to being a guy who can run a team AND score.

This is true 100% but Carey's team, while limited by losing their PG, had plenty of high-major talent for him to pass to, including a big with an SU offer and a forward who will be a high D-I player.

Carey had a bunch of games where he had a bunch of assists this year but he just gets buckets and there's nothing wrong with that. Carey has the talent to adjust and become more of a playmaker. I'm just not sure JB will want him to. I think JB is more than satisfied with Frank as our PG, for better or worse, amd will trust him even more as a senior. Hopefully with more scoring around him, Frank will reign in his tendency to make the occasional terrible decision or play. I'm sceptical but certainly hope that happens.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm a bit skeptical about Carey creating for others at the college level. A lot of the same stuff being said by him was said about Battle when he committed. I remember people saying he could play point.

 

[RF2044]

I'm a bit skeptical about Carey creating for others at the college level. A lot of the same stuff being said by him was said about Battle when he committed. I remember people saying he could play point.

They aren't remotely similar.

 

[Cusefan0307]

They aren't remotely similar.

I'm not saying they are, but there have been times where Carey has had a bit of the turnover bug. His AAU A/TO ratio was about 1 to 1.

 

[iommi]

They aren't remotely similar.

They are similar in a lot of respects. Difference: Carey should be able to get to the rim with both hands. Battle is much more solid physically and quite a bit taller. Tyus may have 3 inches on Carey. Battle is limited as a playmaker, as his -Ast/TO ratio this year shows. I think Carey has potential there but right now is a guy who scores first, like Tyus.

I think it's off to say they're not "remotely similar."

 

[realorange]

Conversation about how much Frank pounds the ball on the floor is interesting, but I'd like to see if Tyus didn't have close to equal time.
The fact they had the ball on the outside so long is in good part because we have little in the way of big men that the opposition has to worry about. The double teams on Frank or Tyus last night were common because NC wasn't concerned about who else they might be leaving open.
Next year with an improved big man lineup, you'll see Frank able to pass the ball inside and be able to drive more often.

It was said over and over this year there were only 3 viable scorers. That makes it far easier for the opposition to choke off driving lanes and give priority to those 3 players.

Instead of harping about all the downsides of players, I think it should be appreciated how hard they tried with what we had. Very seldom did they ever let up let alone quit trying.

 

[iommi]

I'm not saying they are, but there have been times where Carey has had a bit of the turnover bug. His AAU A/TO ratio was about 1 to 1.

True and Tyus's is negative this season.

 

[RF2044]

They are similar in a lot of respects. Difference: Carey should be able to get to the rim with both hands. Battle is much more solid physically and quite a bit taller. Tyus may have 3 inches on Carey. Battle is limited as a playmaker, as his -Ast/TO ratio this year shows. I think Carey has potential there but right now is a guy who scores first, like Tyus.

I think it's off to say they're not "remotely similar."

Let's break it down. Tyus is 6-6 200 pounds, big and strong. Carey is 6-2 170 pounds, a finesse guard. Carey has a terrific handle, Battle does not. Carey excels at attacking the rim / driving to the basket, Battle is deficient in that area. Carey has a strong left hand, Battle does not. Carey's physical stature is that of a point guard, Tyus's is that of an NBA 2G.

The only similarity I see is that they aren't pure lead guards -- but Carey's game / capabilities make the transition to being a lead guard a much shorter path than it ever would have been for Battle.

Not trying to be arguementative, I just don't see it.

 

[tbonezone]

handle and attacking the rim ? that battle don't lack.

 

[iommi]

Let's break it down. Tyus is 6-6 200 pounds, big and strong. Carey is 6-2 170 pounds, a finesse guard. Carey has a terrific handle, Battle does not. Carey excels at attacking the rim / driving to the basket, Battle is deficient in that area. Carey has a strong left hand, Battle does not. Carey's physical stature is that of a point guard, Tyus's is that of an NBA 2G.

The only similarity I see is that they aren't pure lead guards -- but Carey's game / capabilities make the transition to being a lead guard a much shorter path than it ever would have been for Battle.

Not trying to be arguementative, I just don't see it.

This is accurate. I retract my previous comment.

I think Carey is about 6'3" or at least I hope he is. I've seen him listed at about 6'4" but I'm not buying it.

I guess where I disagree is your verbage: "not remotely similar"... since I place a lot of stock in them being not true point guards, whereas others are trying to say Carey is a PG.

I also disagree with you saying Carey is a "finesse guard." Dude is tough and wirey strong. Nothing about his game involves finesse. Now, he is on the thin side but he attacks like Dion did and he finishes through contact very well. I agree very strongly with your last paragraph and Carey already made strides this year in that regard our of necessity.

 

[RF2044]

This is accurate. I retract my previous comment.

I think Carey is about 6'3" or at least I hope he is. I've seen him listed at about 6'4" but I'm not buying it.

I guess where I disagree is your verbage: "not remotely similar"... since I place a lot of stock in them being not true point guards, whereas others are trying to say Carey is a PG.

I also disagree with you saying Carey is a "finesse guard." Dude is tough and wirey strong. Nothing about his game involves finesse. Now, he is on the thin side but he attacks like Dion did and he finishes through contact very well. I agree very strongly with your last paragraph and Carey already made strides this year in that regard our of necessity.

Fair enough. Love these discussions!