Howard and Battle

[chugg21]

Conversation about how much Frank pounds the ball on the floor is interesting, but I'd like to see if Tyus didn't have close to equal time.
The fact they had the ball on the outside so long is in good part because we have little in the way of big men that the opposition has to worry about. The double teams on Frank or Tyus last night were common because NC wasn't concerned about who else they might be leaving open.
Next year with an improved big man lineup, you'll see Frank able to pass the ball inside and be able to drive more often.

It was said over and over this year there were only 3 viable scorers. That makes it far easier for the opposition to choke off driving lanes and give priority to those 3 players.

Instead of harping about all the downsides of players, I think it should be appreciated how hard they tried with what we had. Very seldom did they ever let up let alone quit trying.

Participation trophies for all! Would you expect them to quit? I didn't quit trying in class because it got difficult. I needed to keep busting my butt if I wanted to be prepared for a future career, I would expect the same from them.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Let's just assume for this discussion that Battle is gone. Barring the unforeseen, I really see only two viable options for who starts / plays the most minutes -- either Frank and Hughes, in a big backcourt tailor made for zone, or Frank and Carey.

If its the bigger tandem, then Frank will benefit from having a guy who is reportedly more of a natural ball handler, passer, and penetrator than Battle. Frank would still be the point, but some of the pressure would be spread out. If Carey starts, then it doesn't really matter what you [not "you" specifically, Iommi -- talking in general] call either guard -- Frank isn't a pure point, and neither is Carey. Both can handle, pass, and shoot. Both would have the ball in their hands a lot. Both could initiate the offense, or push it in transition when such opportunities arise.

Wait, Hughes is a better ball handler, passer and penetrator than Tyus? Do we know that for sure? I don't think Tyus' ball handling was necessarily bad, he just relies on going between the legs too much and gets it poked away. It's not great for sure, but solid, I'd say. Tyus is also pretty good penetrating, though struggles with quicker guards. Is Hughes a better athlete and more capable in this area? Seems like there'd be more pressure on Frank with no Tyus and a lesser experienced Hughes next to him...

 

[Jasoncuse]

Great post. My issue/concern is that JB is going to give the reigns to Frank. With it will come his dicey handle and decision-making. Again, Frank has improved. Take away the UNC debacle and he even cut down significantly on his turnovers down the stretch. Still I'm not comfortable with Frank Howard as THE leader of our offense. Carey is a dynamic scorer. He's not a polished PG. With the exception of his ability to go left and right and finish better at the rim, Carey is very similar to Tyus. The jury is out how Carey will be defensively. Tyus has been a tremendous zone defender overall. To me, we are back right where we are this year for the most part.

Throw in Hughes and Buddy, though, and the backcourt picture looks much better. I'm really interested to see if HW redshirts. That's not his outlook but we will see when he's able to resume full basketball activities.

Agreed across the board.

Frank improved tenfold this season, mostly due to his shooting and scoring ability. His handle is still underwhelming and an issue. As you've said, the issue isn't always turning it over. It's about being unable to cleanly beat guys off the dribble, keep his dribble and be actively attacking with it. Your observation about it slowing down any offensive movement is correct; he's not smooth with his dribble and it tends to bog down the half court even further with our tempo/lack of sets.

Carey/Hughes vs Tyus will be an interesting change. Where we will be improved at the guard next to Frank? Defensively, I don't think we'll be as good, even though both our guards had issues preventing penetrations this year. Maybe that improves. I can't imagine either will be the type of scorer Tyus was or have the ability to get to the FT line. Maybe improved shooting? Rebounding from Hughes? Both will be 1st year players in games, so who really knows what to expect at this point...

 

[Jasoncuse]

I know some people are saying Hughes will start (and that might turn out to be the case) but to me he seems like the ideal candidate for a solid bench role, where he can spark us. Maybe JB looks at him in practice and thinks he needs to start after a year in the program. Regardless, we should have plenty of depth and versatility. How Buddy factors in, I'm not sure. Obviously we need shooting but it's tough to plug in a guy for limited minutes and expect him to get into a shooting groove. And if he plays a lot off the bench, who sits?

Could we see something similar to what we've seen Duke do with Alex O'Connell? He plays about 6-8 minutes most games, and up to 15-20 in certain situations. He shot over 50% from 3 despite limited action. Not a ton of shots, but a successful shooter off the pine.

We have to go small at times, right? Maybe press a lot more?

Frank, Carey/Buddy, Hughes, Brissett, Bazley on the court together could be very nice offensively, really opening up the lane for drives and dishes, but we can't play zone with that group. This is where playing that 100% of the time can inhibit what we do on the other end. That's why I wonder how much forward Hughes will play, except maybe subbing for Brissett/Baz. I think Marek will be much improved too, so where does he play? Do we see him play more Center? Playing guys 38 minutes a game just doesn't seem like the right move next year, that's for sure.

 

[RF2044]

Agreed across the board.

Frank improved tenfold this season, mostly due to his shooting and scoring ability. His handle is still underwhelming and an issue. As you've said, the issue isn't always turning it over. It's about being unable to cleanly beat guys off the dribble, keep his dribble and be actively attacking with it. Your observation about it slowing down any offensive movement is correct; he's not smooth with his dribble and it tends to bog down the half court even further with our tempo/lack of sets.

Carey/Hughes vs Tyus will be an interesting change. Where we will be improved at the guard next to Frank? Defensively, I don't think we'll be as good, even though both our guards had issues preventing penetrations this year. Maybe that improves. I can't imagine either will be the type of scorer Tyus was or have the ability to get to the FT line. Maybe improved shooting? Rebounding from Hughes? Both will be 1st year players in games, so who really knows what to expect at this point...

There is no way that anybody is going to be a 20ppg scorer like Battle. But what we're talking about is complimentary skill sets, and being able to alleviate some of the burden that Frank has this year, which don't play to his strengths.

I think Tyus is a terrific player. And I think that Frank has improved immensely -- can't be debated. BUT, both of these guys have limitations that hamstring the team against better defensive teams, and against strong on-the-ball pressure.

Unlike what some suggest in this thread, I think that Battle is a fairly limited ball handler. Yes, he has occasional flashes of highlight reel plays [like the ones where he does that spin move to free himself up]. But it seems from observation that he has 2 or 3 comfortable things he tries to do with the ball, and if defenders key on those things, they can prevent him from doing them. I also keep in mind the two backcourt violations against pressure in the FSU overtimes, the numerous shot clock violations last night where he couldn't get a shot off. Now, not all of those things are 100% his fault, but some of it is undoubtedly tied to him not being the most fluid ball handler.

Secondly, Frank and Tyus paired together have pros and cons. The pros -- they are enormous on the top of the zone, they have size to finish over smaller defenders when they get into the lane, they can both be streaky hot shooters, etc. But the cons are that they predominate the ball, they spend a lot of time dribbling on the perimeter without purposeful movement, and they both seem to be more iso-oriented, despite not having the games to consistently beat guys off of the dribble [not saying that they can't, just that it isn't either player's forte]. Having two guys struggle to beat guys off of the dribble, who spend too much time dribbling outside on the perimeter, and who aren't especially great at breaking down their defenders causes the offense to break down in key spots. They are two terrific players, and they play well together in general, but their skills sets aren't optimized in terms of compatibility. And against some of the better teams we face, these limitations can be exploited -- as we saw last night.

The questions you raise above remind me of the on-paper comparisons between the 2009 versus the 2010 team. Were Triche / Scoop "better" than Jonny Flynn? Was Rautins "better" than Devo? Not based upon raw talent, but sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And that's what I see with Frank being paired with players who can shoot, drive, and pass a little bit better than Battle.

It isn't an indictment of Battle, who is a terrific player albeit one who has a few kinks in his game that will get smoothed out as he develops over time. And it isn't a knock on Frank to suggest for all of his vast improvement, there are parts of his game that are limitations that likely won't improve much. If you believe that Frank would be a more efficient player if he didn't have to do as much--as I do--then it isn't difficult to project how him in a lineup with Carey, Hughes, and Bazley who would be able to take some of the ball handling / play making responsibilities off of his plate -- would make for a more complimentary lineup.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

We did once...frank backed him down a bit and then tried a jumper over him and missed. The end.

He didn't back him down far enough. But you're right. We tried it once.

 

[realorange]

Participation trophies for all! Would you expect them to quit? I didn't quit trying in class because it got difficult. I needed to keep busting my butt if I wanted to be prepared for a future career, I would expect the same from them.

Good for you.
I'm sure you appreciate how they followed your example.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Participation trophies for all! Would you expect them to quit? I didn't quit trying in class because it got difficult. I needed to keep busting my butt if I wanted to be prepared for a future career, I would expect the same from them.

This is kind of dumb actually, unless you were in a class that relied on you and 4 other people combining efforts to get a grade.

 

[Dave]

There is no way that anybody is going to be a 20ppg scorer like Battle. But what we're talking about is complimentary skill sets, and being able to alleviate some of the burden that Frank has this year, which don't play to his strengths.

I think Tyus is a terrific player. And I think that Frank has improved immensely -- can't be debated. BUT, both of these guys have limitations that hamstring the team against better defensive teams, and against strong on-the-ball pressure.

Unlike what some suggest in this thread, I think that Battle is a fairly limited ball handler. Yes, he has occasional flashes of highlight reel plays [like the ones where he does that spin move to free himself up]. But it seems from observation that he has 2 or 3 comfortable things he tries to do with the ball, and if defenders key on those things, they can prevent him from doing them. I also keep in mind the two backcourt violations against pressure in the FSU overtimes, the numerous shot clock violations last night where he couldn't get a shot off. Now, not all of those things are 100% his fault, but some of it is undoubtedly tied to him not being the most fluid ball handler.

Secondly, Frank and Tyus paired together have pros and cons. The pros -- they are enormous on the top of the zone, they have size to finish over smaller defenders when they get into the lane, they can both be streaky hot shooters, etc. But the cons are that they predominate the ball, they spend a lot of time dribbling on the perimeter without purposeful movement, and they both seem to be more iso-oriented, despite not having the games to consistently beat guys off of the dribble [not saying that they can't, just that it isn't either player's forte]. Having two guys struggle to beat guys off of the dribble, who spend too much time dribbling outside on the perimeter, and who aren't especially great at breaking down their defenders causes the offense to break down in key spots. They are two terrific players, and they play well together in general, but their skills sets aren't optimized in terms of compatibility. And against some of the better teams we face, these limitations can be exploited -- as we saw last night.

The questions you raise above remind me of the on-paper comparisons between the 2009 versus the 2010 team. Were Triche / Scoop "better" than Jonny Flynn? Was Rautins "better" than Devo? Not based upon raw talent, but sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And that's what I see with Frank being paired with players who can shoot, drive, and pass a little bit better than Battle.

It isn't an indictment of Battle, who is a terrific player albeit one who has a few kinks in his game that will get smoothed out as he develops over time. And it isn't a knock on Frank to suggest for all of his vast improvement, there are parts of his game that are limitations that likely won't improve much. If you believe that Frank would be a more efficient player if he didn't have to do as much--as I do--then it isn't difficult to project how him in a lineup with Carey, Hughes, and Bazley who would be able to take some of the ball handling / play making responsibilities off of his plate -- would make for a more complimentary lineup.

Strong commentary.

 

[Jasoncuse]

There is no way that anybody is going to be a 20ppg scorer like Battle. But what we're talking about is complimentary skill sets, and being able to alleviate some of the burden that Frank has this year, which don't play to his strengths.

I think Tyus is a terrific player. And I think that Frank has improved immensely -- can't be debated. BUT, both of these guys have limitations that hamstring the team against better defensive teams, and against strong on-the-ball pressure.

Unlike what some suggest in this thread, I think that Battle is a fairly limited ball handler. Yes, he has occasional flashes of highlight reel plays [like the ones where he does that spin move to free himself up]. But it seems from observation that he has 2 or 3 comfortable things he tries to do with the ball, and if defenders key on those things, they can prevent him from doing them. I also keep in mind the two backcourt violations against pressure in the FSU overtimes, the numerous shot clock violations last night where he couldn't get a shot off. Now, not all of those things are 100% his fault, but some of it is undoubtedly tied to him not being the most fluid ball handler.

Secondly, Frank and Tyus paired together have pros and cons. The pros -- they are enormous on the top of the zone, they have size to finish over smaller defenders when they get into the lane, they can both be streaky hot shooters, etc. But the cons are that they predominate the ball, they spend a lot of time dribbling on the perimeter without purposeful movement, and they both seem to be more iso-oriented, despite not having the games to consistently beat guys off of the dribble [not saying that they can't, just that it isn't either player's forte]. Having two guys struggle to beat guys off of the dribble, who spend too much time dribbling outside on the perimeter, and who aren't especially great at breaking down their defenders causes the offense to break down in key spots. They are two terrific players, and they play well together in general, but their skills sets aren't optimized in terms of compatibility. And against some of the better teams we face, these limitations can be exploited -- as we saw last night.

The questions you raise above remind me of the on-paper comparisons between the 2009 versus the 2010 team. Was Triche / Scoop better than Jonny Flynn? Was Rautins better than Devo? Not based upon raw talent, but sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And that's what I see with Frank being paired with players who can shoot, drive, and pass a little bit better than Battle.

It isn't an indictment of Battle, who is a terrific player albeit one who has a few kinks in his game that will get smoothed out as he develops over time. And it isn't a knock on Frank to suggest for all of his vast improvement, there are parts of his game that are limitations that likely won't improve much. If you believe that Frank would be a more efficient player if he didn't have to do as much--as I do--then it isn't difficult to project how him in a lineup with Carey, Hughes, and Bazley who would be able to take some of the ball handling / play making responsibilities off of his plate -- would make for a more complimentary lineup.

I agree with a lot of this. I just have a hard time believing the backcourt will be better until we actually see these guys play. Guess I'm following a wait and see approach. Carey and Hughes will have limitations too, so we might just have different issues. The defense up top is a concern until they get experience. Shooting? Who knows.

Frank and Tyus probably have more similar games than we thought. Frank a better outside shooter and passer, Tyus better off the bounce and a better athlete, but both have less than great handles, are turnover prone, good defensively up top and didn't exactly finish well within 5 feet. Maybe having a player like Carey who will be different than them will provide something else. Hope your 2009 and 2010 comp plays out similarly.

But we also have to hope that the system is different. We cannot continue having no set offense and just burn clock. There's much less margin for error. With depth and a wider variety of skills, this has to change for our offense to improve to where it needs to be.

 

[RF2044]

I agree with a lot of this. I just have a hard time believing the backcourt will be better until we actually see these guys play. Guess I'm following a wait and see approach. Carey and Hughes will have limitations too, so we might just have different issues. The defense up top is a concern until they get experience. Shooting? Who knows.

Frank and Tyus probably have more similar games than we thought. Frank a better outside shooter and passer, Tyus better off the bounce and a better athlete, but both have less than great handles, are turnover prone, good defensively up top and didn't exactly finish well within 5 feet. Maybe having a player like Carey who will be different than them will provide something else. Hope your 2009 and 2010 comp plays out similarly.

But we also have to hope that the system is different. We cannot continue having no set offense and just burn clock. There's much less margin for error. With depth and a wider variety of skills, this has to change for our offense to improve to where it needs to be.

Just as a function of Bazley alone, the offense will have to be different. We won't have two guards dominating the ball dribbling 28 seconds of the shot clock away. It isn't difficult to envision next year's offense being way more dynamic / diversified, even if the offense is spread out instead of consolidated with 2 or 3 guys.

Good post, btw.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Just as a function of Bazley alone, the offense will have to be different. We won't have two guards dominating the ball dribbling 28 seconds of the shot clock away. It isn't difficult to envision next year's offense being way more dynamic / diversified, even if the offense is spread out instead of consolidated with 2 or 3 guys.

Good post, btw.

From your lips to JB's ears. I do expect it to look a lot different, but I sure hope JB tries getting us to play more up tempo again. We will have DYNAMIC stud forwards--letting them stand around in a half court grind is not playing to their strengths.

In my vision of next year's team, we'll press more with Chukwu back defending. With a healthy Sidibe, Marek and maybe Valdir Manuel, we should have better depth and won't have to worry about those fouls. With LONG forwards, guard depth and probably a need to find easy buckets, we have to press more, right?

 

[Cusefan0307]

If Frank and Tyus played with Taurean Thompson and Tyler Lydon at the 4 and 5 this year I bet they would have been a lot more efficient. We really need better production out of those two positions than we do the guards.

 

[rrlbees]

He's a scoring guard 100%. The ball was in his hands a lot before the point guard went down but yes, he's not a pass-first traditional point guard.

Howard Washington is a traditional point guard but he could barely sniff the court because I guess Frank Howard is all-world or something and couldn't use the occasional few minutes of rest.

You take the Washington PT way too personally. And I’m of the opinion that from early on Washington should have played nominally 8mpg. 4mpg each half. 2 for Tyus, 2 for Frank.

 

[iommi]

You take the Washington PT way too personally. And I’m of the opinion that from early on Washington should have played nominally 8mpg. 4mpg each half. 2 for Tyus, 2 for Frank.

Personally? Ha. I’m not related. It’s an opinion. All I thought he should’ve received was 8-10 MPG.

 

[SoBeCuse]

If Frank and Tyus played with Taurean Thompson and Tyler Lydon at the 4 and 5 this year I bet they would have been a lot more efficient. We really need better production out of those two positions than we do the guards.

Definitely more efficient, yes. Still perhaps a plodding, slower team, but most likely a few more wins.

 

[chugg21]

Definitely more efficient, yes. Still perhaps a plodding, slower team, but most likely a few more wins.

I'd say 24 wins minimum.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'd say 24 wins minimum.

Perhaps. It still would be a jump shooting team primarily and not the most athletic one ever assembled. We’ll never know.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Perhaps. It still would be a jump shooting team primarily and not the most athletic one ever assembled. We’ll never know.

We need that shooting. We are one of the worst shooting teams in the country. They were efficient with their shots.

 

[SoBeCuse]

We need that shooting. We are one of the worst shooting teams in the country. They were efficient with their shots.

I hear you. Just would worry a little if teams would get up and crowd those guys. Make them put it on the floor. The scheme would still be real simplistic.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I hear you. Just would worry a little if teams would get up and crowd those guys. Make them put it on the floor. The scheme would still be real simplistic.

Lydon was open in the post last year, but Gillon couldn’t throw it in there. Thompson was our best zone buster. It would have made it harder for teams to zone us.

If they guarded those guys like that it should make it easier for Battle and Howard to do their thing.

I’m just not a fan of non offensive guys like Keita and Chukwu being our 5 men.

We definitely can’t be throwing out the Roberson’s and Moyers of the world who can’t make a shot outside of 5 feet at the 4 anymore.

Everyone keeps focusing on the guards, but we really need four perimeter threats in this era to be able to have a functional halfcourt offense or teams just clog the interior.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Lydon was open in the post last year, but Gillon couldn’t throw it in there. Thompson was our best zone buster. It would have made it harder for teams to zone us.

If they guarded those guys like that it should make it easier for Battle and Howard to do their thing.

I’m just not a fan of non offensive guys like Keita and Chukwu being our 5 men.

We definitely can’t be throwing out the Roberson’s and Moyers of the world who can’t make a shot outside of 5 feet at the 4 anymore.

Everyone keeps focusing on the guards, but we really need four perimeter threats in this era to be able to have a functional halfcourt offense or teams just clog the interior.

Yeah those guys should be a few minutes off the bench players. But, yeah that team would be good against a zone. Better than against man, IMO.