Hunt, not GMC is the Problem

[timkay99]

I am not calling for Hunt's job. Just that we are incredibly limited as an offense due to the throws he can execute. He is the best we have. If we had an OL like we did during Marrone's tenure, it would probably work.

We're never going to get players to run this offense with it looking so dysfunctional so regularly. McDonald needs to be creative and I don't think he knows how to be. Auburn basically used a RB at quarterback all year last season. If we're using Hunt for his mobility, we should just take one of our faster RB's, teach him how read a zone read play and let's do our best Auburn impression with multiple RB's in the backfield. Before anyone says, "We'll never be Auburn, we don't have their players," guess what, we'll never be as good as any of the best offenses because they all have better personnel, but we have to do something different. Rick Rod essentially did the same thing with Pat White at WVU.

I agree that we need a good OL coach. Adkins may have been our biggest loss when Marrone left, maybe bigger than Hackett.

I think McDonald is very creative. We have run a ton of trickeration during his time here and (to his credit) it works most of the time. Problem is with your wildcat suggestion, our OL isn't good enough. We see that in short yardage plays. To teach a triple option (which is probably the best offense for the personnel in all honesty with Moore at the FB spot and our stable of RB's at TB) is just not going to happen.

Key here also is Hunt is elusive, not fast, so if the defense stacks the box we aren't getting yards. I wouldn't mind an offense that is option based with Broyld at QB, but I think the OL would get him killed.

If Hunt is so bad, why is he throwing 30+ passes per game, which due to the amount he pulls the ball down and runs means the pass calls are higher? McDonald himself says SU is a running team, yet he is too quick to abandon the run.

I think that is lip service by McDonald (and have always thought so). He is a WR coach and this is the offense that most WR coaches will run, get the balls in the hands of his guys on the perimeter to make plays.

The reason we have to throw all the time is because we have games like Notre Dame where our Punter is our leading rusher. Our only avg unit is the RB position, but it gets to be below avg when fitted with our below avg OL.

 

[anomander]

And I'm so sick of hearing about the talent disparity crap. Did we not have a talent disparity when we crushed Louisville two years ago? They had a guy who may be the best rookie QB in the NFL this year running their offense. Didn't we have a talent disparity when we beat WVU three years in a row? Absolutely. How did we do it? The team was prepared. This team looks very unprepared and they have for much of the season.

Amazing isn't it. Our players got worse.

 

[anomander]

If Hunt is so bad, why is he throwing 30+ passes per game, which due to the amount he pulls the ball down and runs means the pass calls are higher? McDonald himself says SU is a running team, yet he is too quick to abandon the run.

McDonald is terrible. When Lewis got tackled on the 1 I knew we wouldn't be able to get it in. Let's line up in shotgun from the 1 and hand it off 5 yards back when you have a 6'3 240lb qb. But that's Hunt's fault. To say this is totally on Hunt is ridiculous. They are equally as bad.

 

[sufandu]

I am not calling for Hunt's job. Just that we are incredibly limited as an offense due to the throws he can execute. He is the best we have. If we had an OL like we did during Marrone's tenure, it would probably work.



I think McDonald is very creative. We have run a ton of trickeration during his time here and (to his credit) it works most of the time. Problem is with your wildcat suggestion, our OL isn't good enough. We see that in short yardage plays. To teach a triple option (which is probably the best offense for the personnel in all honesty with Moore at the FB spot and our stable of RB's at TB) is just not going to happen.

Key here also is Hunt is elusive, not fast, so if the defense stacks the box we aren't getting yards. I wouldn't mind an offense that is option based with Broyld at QB, but I think the OL would get him killed.



I think that is lip service by McDonald (and have always thought so). He is a WR coach and this is the offense that most WR coaches will run, get the balls in the hands of his guys on the perimeter to make plays.

The reason we have to throw all the time is because we have games like Notre Dame where our Punter is our leading rusher. Our only avg unit is the RB position, but it gets to be below avg when fitted with our below avg OL.

Exactly, GMac is a WR coach, not an OC. An offensive coordinator plays to his strengths, and McDonald either refuses to or doesn't know how to. The whole point of a triple option attack is that it doesn't require a dominant offensive line. When we ran it during the Graves years, we had solid well coached offensive lines, but we were never loaded with talent, yet we beat more talented teams like Ohio State and Colorado. Does Georgia Tech have dominant offensive line talent? Was Navy's offensive line anywhere near as talented as Ohio State? No. The scheme made use of misdirection and confusion to neutralize the talent disadvantage, at least for a while.

I'm not talking about trickeration. I'm talking about an offensive design that slows defenses down because they can't anticipate it. Malzahn did that last year with a QB that couldn't throw the ball. In the NC game, their running game was so good, almost anytime they did throw, their WR were open with nobody within 15 yards of them. I know Auburn has superior players, but what you saw against teams like FSU and Alabama was that their defenses had to play slower than their athleticism because Auburn's offense made them think instead of just react. And that was with most of the same players that went 3-9 the year before. Did Malzahn bring in 85 more talented players? No. He coached and schemed to their strengths. If we could do that, we'd still get killed by FSU, but we'd fair better against Louisville, Maryland, Pitt, BC, the teams at or closer to our level.

 

[timkay99]

Exactly, GMac is a WR coach, not an OC. An offensive coordinator plays to his strengths, and McDonald either refuses to or doesn't know how to. The whole point of a triple option attack is that it doesn't require a dominant offensive line. When we ran it we had solid well coached offensive lines, but we were never loaded with talent. Does Georgia Tech have dominant offensive line talent? Was Navy's offensive line anywhere near as talented as Ohio State? No. The scheme made use of misdirection and confusion to neutralize the talent disadvantage, at least for a while.

I'm not talking about trickeration. I'm talking about an offensive design that slows defenses down because they can't anticipate it. Malzahn did that last year with a QB that couldn't throw the ball. In the NC game, their running game was so good, almost anytime they did throw, their WR were open with nobody within 15 yards of them. I know Auburn has superior players, but what you saw against teams like FSU and Alabama was that their defenses had to play slower than their athleticism because Auburn's offense made them think instead of just react. If we could do that, we'd still get killed by FSU, but we'd fair better against Louisville, Maryland, Pitt, BC, the teams at or closer to our level.

But honestly, what are our offensive strengths we should be playing to? We have all seen running plays get blown up in the backfield due to poor blocking and we have seen WR's get zero separation on short routes. We have seen a QB struggle on 5 step and 7 step drops and struggle to run the zone read.

Triple option here would have fans pull their hair out (to be fair, like any other system). My brother went to Georgia Tech and absolutely hates the option they run. Also can't install that system one year and then move onto a different system the next year, especially when dealing with options that rely on athletic OL that can cut block to a power run attack that relies on physical OL to a spread offense that relies on OL to get to the open field and block.

Malzahn is the best offensive innovator in all of college football (and has been since he was an OC, love that guy). They don't grow on trees. The only chance of that is for Syracuse to hire a high school coach with a strong offense as its next HC. I am not against that either, but it can turn out like Washington State under Roof and set the program back for awhile.

McDonald is a below avg to avg OC. He won't gameplan you to victories, but he won't typically kill you either (the 2 points he cost us is bad with that playcall) and we are counting on his recruiting prowess to make up for the averageness of him (which is a mixed bag).

 

[timkay99]

McDonald is terrible. When Lewis got tackled on the 1 I knew we wouldn't be able to get it in. Let's line up in shotgun from the 1 and hand it off 5 yards back when you have a 6'3 240lb qb. But that's Hunt's fault. To say this is totally on Hunt is ridiculous. They are equally as bad.

What play do you run? The guy coming would have made it to get a tackle for a loss on any play you call. Miller completely and utterly whiffed.

If you would read the thread, I never said its totally on Hunt. But all this blame GMC is taking is a bit ridiculous when you look at the talent level, which is not on par with our peers as much as others want to think it is. Do any of our WR's play for Maryland that played tonight?

 

[PhatOrange]

It's a combo. Hunt's accuracy aside he also showed tonight he has no clue about managing a team on the field and his decision making is less than subpar. It's a bad combo and perfect storm scenario. They've both seemingly regressed from the end of last year.

I think now they've both lost confidence.

 

[eddie in nc]

What play do you run? The guy coming would have made it to get a tackle for a loss on any play you call. Miller completely and utterly whiffed.

If you would read the thread, I never said its totally on Hunt. But all this blame GMC is taking is a bit ridiculous when you look at the talent level, which is not on par with our peers as much as others want to think it is. Do any of our WR's play for Maryland that played tonight?

whats the title of the thread?

 

[sufandu]

But honestly, what are our offensive strengths we should be playing to? We have all seen running plays get blown up in the backfield due to poor blocking and we have seen WR's get zero separation on short routes. We have seen a QB struggle on 5 step and 7 step drops and struggle to run the zone read.

Triple option here would have fans pull their hair out (to be fair, like any other system). My brother went to Georgia Tech and absolutely hates the option they run. Also can't install that system one year and then move onto a different system the next year, especially when dealing with options that rely on athletic OL that can cut block to a power run attack that relies on physical OL to a spread offense that relies on OL to get to the open field and block.

Malzahn is the best offensive innovator in all of college football (and has been since he was an OC, love that guy). They don't grow on trees. The only chance of that is for Syracuse to hire a high school coach with a strong offense as its next HC. I am not against that either, but it can turn out like Washington State under Roof and set the program back for awhile.

McDonald is a below avg to avg OC. He won't gameplan you to victories, but he won't typically kill you either (the 2 points he cost us is bad with that playcall) and we are counting on his recruiting prowess to make up for the averageness of him (which is a mixed bag).

So, if you're Gmac stop studying the Falcons and UCLA! Study Malzahn! Our strengths are our running backs. We don't have to blow teams off the line of scrimmage. We have to trap, cut, and misdirection our way to open holes for our RB's just like we did in the 90's when we weren't blowing guys off the LOS. Auburn didn't blow FSU or Alabama of the LOS. They out schemed them. Without Jameis Winston FSU loses that game. Just as you said before, we need an o-line coach.

 

[KaiserUEO]

If Hunt is so bad, why is he throwing 30+ passes per game, which due to the amount he pulls the ball down and runs means the pass calls are higher? McDonald himself says SU is a running team, yet he is too quick to abandon the run.

hunt is so bad, that in the green zone...they use gimmick plays to throw the ball into the endzone.

they know hunt wouldnt, or is incapable.

 

[anomander]

What play do you run? The guy coming would have made it to get a tackle for a loss on any play you call. Miller completely and utterly whiffed.

If you would read the thread, I never said its totally on Hunt. But all this blame GMC is taking is a bit ridiculous when you look at the talent level, which is not on par with our peers as much as others want to think it is. Do any of our WR's play for Maryland that played tonight?

What play would I run? How about a quarterback sneak? And the following play a reverse, and then another reverse with your rb throwing it? I felt like i was in the twilight zone.

 

[sufandu]

But all this blame GMC is taking is a bit ridiculous when you look at the talent level, which is not on par with our peers as much as others want to think it is.

When did our talent level get worse? We have many players back from a team that won a bowl game last year and this staff supposedly is the best recruiting staff we've had in over a decade. If our returning players are so bad, we should have way more freshman playing, because the untalented veterans have been recruited over.

 

[phil77]

When do we bench/give up on Hunt? Do we have to watch his terrible QB for another year and a half? I see why the staff went with Allen because Hunt is freaking awful. He is not an ACC QB and is way over his head.

 

[Opus]

I put this in another thread but probably should have put it here...
From Bailey's twitter feed


Stephen Bailey @Stephen_Bailey1 · 5m5 minutes ago
McDonald said the first safety, a pitch to Adonis Ameen-Moore, was a check by Hunt after reading DE. McDonald took blame for initial call.

 

[phil77]

I put this in another thread but probably should have put it here...
From Bailey's twitter feed


Stephen Bailey @Stephen_Bailey1 · 5m5 minutes ago
McDonald said the first safety, a pitch to Adonis Ameen-Moore, was a check by Hunt after reading DE. McDonald took blame for initial call.

But but but that is McDonalds fault...Hunt needs to bench he is in over his head. Transfer to a MAC school and play his senior year.

 

[sufandu]

I put this in another thread but probably should have put it here...
From Bailey's twitter feed


Stephen Bailey @Stephen_Bailey1 · 5m5 minutes ago
McDonald said the first safety, a pitch to Adonis Ameen-Moore, was a check by Hunt after reading DE. McDonald took blame for initial call.

Should a play even be called there where the QB makes a read? If you're reading the defense you're slowing down the play. Being backed up in your own endzone is not a time to run a slower developing play.

 

[KaiserUEO]

AAM also went down like a house of cards in the wind...from an arm tackle by a DB.

 

[timkay99]

whats the title of the thread?

The thread is mislabeled and that is my fault. I acknowledged in the 3rd post that they both take blame, but IMO, Hunt takes more blame.

So, if you're Gmac stop studying the Falcons and UCLA! Study Malzahn! Our strengths are our running backs. We don't have to blow teams off the line of scrimmage. We have to trap, cut, and misdirection our way to open holes for our RB's just like we did in the 90's when we weren't blowing guys off the LOS. Auburn didn't blow FSU or Alabama of the LOS. They out schemed them. Without Jameis Winston FSU loses that game. Just as you said before, we need an o-line coach.

You need talented OL to do that though. Trudo/Robinson can't pull. Palmer/Foy/Hickey can't get outside consistently given their weights/knees. Not necessarily NFL talented OL, but need more talent on the OL then we have right now.

I don't disagree about studying the Falcons, but UCLA is another pretty good team to evaluate. Their offense is pretty legit. Whether or not that is b/c of Hundley will be interesting to see b/c the offense wasn't very good pre-Mora.

What play would I run? How about a quarterback sneak? And the following play a reverse, and then another reverse with your rb throwing it? I felt like i was in the twilight zone.

Sneak didn't work against Notre Dame. Neither did a straight 3rd and 1 run. This is my point, we run our play and it gets blown up. No data from previous games that the typical short yardage plays work with our OL. And the reverse worked. And then the double reverse woudl have worked.

When did our talent level get worse? We have many players back from a team that won a bowl game last year and this staff supposedly is the best recruiting staff we've had in over a decade. If our returning players are so bad, we should have way more freshman playing, because the untalented veterans have been recruited over.

Takes time. We lost our C and key to the OL in McPherson. That has a lot to do with the struggles of that unit, especially since I think Miller is in over his head. OL unit has regressed, but not sure how that falls on McDonald (more on Shafer IMO due to the hire). Takes time for the OL to develop and that is why I thought Denzel Ward had a chance to play right away.

Frosh are playing right away in Ishmael, Custis and Phillips. People also want Enoicy to play. I believe that is all the true frosh skill players we recruited... So 3 of 4 playing and Corey Cooper probably would have played as well if he didn't leave. That is a lot of true frosh to get time when there was minimal losses at their respective positions. It is hard for true frosh to play right away AND make an impact, especially now that we are in the ACC.

 

[timkay99]

Should a play even be called there where the QB makes a read? If you're reading the defense you're slowing down the play. Being backed up in your own endzone is not a time to run a slower developing play.

The read was to audible, not to decide between pitching and keeping.

 

[sufandu]

The read was to audible, not to decide between pitching and keeping.

My mistake.

 

[timkay99]

My mistake.

No worries, just wanted to make sure.

I don't like McDonald did that. An OC should never throw his QB under the bus. Thats the fans jobs! ;-)

 

[ssbriefcase]

AAM also went down like a house of cards in the wind...from an arm tackle by a DB.

Might want to rewind your tape. Put it in slo-mo. The safety (8) and the DT (11) got him. When Hunt pitched in the MIDDLE of the endzone those two saw exactly what was going on and b-lined after Adonis. There was no arm tackle. They both brought him down. Funny how people perceive until you rewind.

 

[KaiserUEO]

8 dove with his arm out and hit him 1st.

he started going down. then the DT fell on top.

he did not churn his legs at all and did not make a real attempt to get out of the endzone.

weak.

 

[sufandu]

8 dove with his arm out and hit him 1st.

he started going down. then the DT fell on top.

he did not churn his legs at all and did not make a real attempt to get out of the endzone.

weak.

He never breaks tackles going parallel to the LOS. His momentum needs to get going forward from the snap, not after running sideways for 5 yards and getting a pitch.

 

[Pat Kelly]

That first pass of the game… oh my God… that was an 80 yard TD if accurate. And the fiasco before the half...