I can't take it anymore

[Cusefan0307]

Awesome thread. I think bringing Lydon off the bench is stupid.

His biggest weakness is deferring to others, so let's bring him off the bench to have him continue to defer. Makes zero sense.

 

[orangenirvana]

Tyler Lydon is not Dion Waiters. Dion Waiters is not Tyler Lydon.

Having a good player that at one time came off the bench in no way, shape or form is equivalent to the role Dion Waiters once played and was successful in.

We're not doing this. This is not going to become another situation where every center we recruited that wasn't a burger boy is automatically compared to Seann Williams.

As arbiter of the appropriate use of players comparisons, I hereby defenestrate the comparison of Dion Waiters to any player that comes off the bench or may come off the bench.

So it is, and may God have mercy on you poor fools.

 

[jordoo]

Awesome thread. I think bringing Lydon off the bench is stupid.

His biggest weakness is deferring to others, so let's bring him off the bench to have him continue to defer. Makes zero sense.

Yep, all the reasons we see for bring Lydon off the bench are actually symptoms of feeling badly for Roberson. (Strange no one feels bad for Lydon because he'll be cool with it ) We build up reasoning to support what we want to be true. The truth is that its best for the team to start Lydon and encourage him to be a leader rather than deffer.

 

[jordoo]

I think the best justification not to start Lydon is that White and Gillon didn't come here to come off the bench.

Is that true? Who knows? But I think it is just as likely Lydon comes off the bench as starts. Because right now, I don't think JB knows.

Honestly I really think its all just justify things in ones head to allow Roberson to start since he's a senior. Roberson can only play the 4, Lydon is a most natural fit at the 4 and our best 4. So we see a bunch of reasons why Lydon coming off the bench is best for this group of players this year. To me bringing other players in at other position as reasoning simply avoids having to face the reality of the situation which is that you absolutely cannot start Roberson over Lydon at the 4 which is what many posters are doing.

 

[Jack Hall]

Honestly I really think its all just justify things in ones head to allow Roberson to start since he's a senior. Roberson can only play the 4, Lydon is a most natural fit at the 4 and our best 4. So we see a bunch of reasons why Lydon coming off the bench is best for this group of players this year. To me bringing other players in at other position as reasoning simply avoids having to face the reality of the situation which is that you absolutely cannot start Roberson over Lydon at the 4 which is what many posters are doing.

Maybe its not important but Robey has started every single game last year. So to remove him as starter would be egg on his face. Lydon has never started so you would not be revoking that privilege.

Does it make complete sense to me? Not necessarily. Would i start Lydon? Yes. But when you look at DC and TR starting every game last year , and in fact DC has started almost every single game in his career (has this been justified looking at his injuries and his stats?)- it becomes obvious JB does things differently. As im sure you would agree, theres a method to JBs madness lately and hes got two FFs in 4 years to back that up

 

[jordoo]

Maybe its not important but Robey has started every single game last year. So to remove him as starter would be egg on his face. Lydon has never started so you would not be revoking that privilege.

Does it make complete sense to me? Not necessarily. Would i start Lydon? Yes. But when you look at DC and TR starting every game last year , and in fact DC has started almost every single game in his career (has this been justified looking at his injuries and his stats?)- it becomes obvious JB does things differently. As im sure you would agree, theres a method. To JBs madness and hes got two FFs in 4 years to back that up

I agree in theory but I look at lineups with both Coleman and Roberson starting and no Lydon and my brain says What! I can't help it lol. It will be interesting to see what happens but I am still putting my money on Lydon starting until proven otherwise by JB who will ultimately make that decision as we all know.

 

[Dave85]

Honestly I really think its all just justify things in ones head to allow Roberson to start since he's a senior. Roberson can only play the 4, Lydon is a most natural fit at the 4 and our best 4. So we see a bunch of reasons why Lydon coming off the bench is best for this group of players this year. To me bringing other players in at other position as reasoning simply avoids having to face the reality of the situation which is that you absolutely cannot start Roberson over Lydon at the 4 which is what many posters are doing.

Who cares who starts. The more interesting question is does Lydon get the majority of minutes at the 4 and Roberson gets only 10 to 15 minutes per game?

 

[Jack Hall]

I agree in theory but I look at lineups with both Coleman and Roberson starting and no Lydon and my brain says What! I can't help it lol. It will be interesting to see what happens but I am still putting my money on Lydon starting until proven otherwise by JB who will ultimately make that decision as we all know.

Agreed, would not be surprised one bit to see Lydon start, and lead us in mins played. I have no clue what the starting lineup OR the lineup with most mins played will be. I literally could pick 4 diff ones for ea scenario. As has been said (esp after some recent seasons with weak depth) its a great problem to have!!

 

[Jack Hall]

Who cares who starts. The more interesting question is does Lydon get the majority of minutes at the 4 and Roberson gets only 10 to 15 minutes per game?

I see 8 guys getting more than 18-20 mins a game! Too good to be true? Maybe but thats what i hope, 8 guys are good enough to get major play

 

[Fly Rodder]

I agree in theory but I look at lineups with both Coleman and Roberson starting and no Lydon and my brain says What!

I would be much more confused if Lydon didn't end up in the top 2 in mpg unless there were some injuries that throw a wrench in the works. And even so, if there were injuries, I'd expect the most versatile player on the team to still get the most minutes. Starting doesn't matter, it's who is in at the end of the game that matters.

 

[Dave85]

If White and Lydon cause Roberson to get half the amount of playing time as last year I'm not sure it will go over well for him. If Battle and White are playing really well the PT is going to come from somewhere. I very much doubt it will cut into Lydon's playing time. I think Roberson not having a credible jump-shot may really hurt him this season. If the team is rebounding well without Roberson then he may be the odd man out in terms of PT.

 

[HoustonCuse]

4 years > 1 year
14 PPG > 2 PPG
That is the experience that matters most, not a handful of games last March in which Frank was still a little used sub.

Can't argue with your numbers, but Frank was more than a little used sub by the end of the year. I recently re-watched all our tournament games and he played a significant role in all of them. I was impressed with him more upon rewatching and he was very good in all but one of the games (UVa). But he came in before Lydon did on at least one occasion and he played real minutes in the most important games of the season.

One way to look at it: the Gonzaga game was JAB's 18th Sweet 16 game. It was in the top 30 most important games of his 40 year career and he didn't hesitate to put Franklin out there early and often.

I'm not arguing anything about the relative goodness of FH and JG because I have no idea. Just pointing out he became an important contributor not just a bench scrub.

 

[jordoo]

If White and Lydon cause Roberson to get half the amount of playing time as last year I'm not sure it will go over well for him. If Battle and White are playing really well the PT is going to come from somewhere. I very much doubt it will cut into Lydon's playing time. I think Roberson not having a credible jump-shot may really hurt him this season. If the team is rebounding well without Roberson then he may be the odd man out in terms of PT.

I don't see that happening! Roberson played what 30min a game last year. I could see that dropping to 25ish but not to 15. Esepcially since White will get a few minutes here and there at guard and Lydon at center. Roberson's liability on offense away from the rim is certainly his biggest weakness as a player IMO, so I agree with that point. Also as you pointed out although Roby us our best rebounder Lydon, White, Coleman are all very good rebounders as well.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

63rd

I don't know how to make it much clearer. I'm tired of people using Dion Waiters as a justification to not start Lydon.

So I defenestrated that crap.

Keeping Dion on the bench was about attitude and ego, not talent.
Lydon will start because of superior talent.

 

[721Comstock]

63rd

Keeping Dion on the bench was about attitude and ego, not talent.
Lydon will start because of superior talent.

Only partially correct - it was also because it created an even greater mismatch.
Dion got a lot of his run against non-starters, which made his talent gap over them that much greater.

One thing we can ALL agree on - Lydon will get a TON of minutes.
Regardless of whether he starts, or not.

(which I still think he won't - but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he does either.)

 

[IthacaMatt]

Honestly I really think its all just justify things in ones head to allow Roberson to start since he's a senior. Roberson can only play the 4, Lydon is a most natural fit at the 4 and our best 4. So we see a bunch of reasons why Lydon coming off the bench is best for this group of players this year. To me bringing other players in at other position as reasoning simply avoids having to face the reality of the situation which is that you absolutely cannot start Roberson over Lydon at the 4 which is what many posters are doing.

Actually, I disagree with the notion that Lydon is not a 3. On defense, the 3 and 4 are interchangeable in our system, so it's not about having to guard a quicker guy, it's about guarding an area of the floor. So that part is fine.

On offense, our 3's tend to start out on a wing. Lydon is the ultimate pick-and-pop player. Our 4's tend to work either down low on the weak side, or around the foul line, if we play a high-low offense (Terrence Roberts with Mookie Watkins down on the low block, Rick Jackson when he played with Arinze). The 3 has to be able to make a three point shot, which is one of Lydon's strengths.

So I don't get this "he's not a 3" argument at all. We want him on one wing and Andrew White on the other, most of the time, so we have 2 three point threats to go with whoever is currently handling the ball and starting the offense.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

So FH, who hasn't shown he can shoot, can penetrate a zone, but the future NBA player and the 5th year PG can't?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Only partially correct - it was also because it created an even greater mismatch.
Dion got a lot of his run against non-starters, which made his talent gap over them that much greater.

One thing we can ALL agree on - Lydon will get a TON of minutes.
Regardless of whether he starts, or not.

(which I still think he won't - but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he does either.)

The match up stuff is nonsense. The game is 40 minutes. JB uses his own rotation.

 

[FBREAK]

Unless both your 1 and 2 can penetrate and handle, then you need your 3 needs to be able to create his own shot(Lydon is not that player). With White at the 2 , I don't think it is a good combo with Lydon at 3. With them at 3 and 4 with our two guards the primary ball handlers they will work well. Our best offensive lineup with be
1. Gillon
2. Battle
3.White
4. Lydon
5. any one of the centers who can rebound and finish

 

[NineOneSeven]

4 years > 1 year
14 PPG > 2 PPG
That is the experience that matters most, not a handful of games last March in which Frank was still a little used sub.

Why did Luc Richard Mbah a Moute start 56 more games this year than Jamal Crawford?

14ppg > > 3ppg.

 

[jordoo]

Actually, I disagree with the notion that Lydon is not a 3. On defense, the 3 and 4 are interchangeable in our system, so it's not about having to guard a quicker guy, it's about guarding an area of the floor. So that part is fine.

On offense, our 3's tend to start out on a wing. Lydon is the ultimate pick-and-pop player. Our 4's tend to work either down low on the weak side, or around the foul line, if we play a high-low offense (Terrence Roberts with Mookie Watkins down on the low block, Rick Jackson when he played with Arinze). The 3 has to be able to make a three point shot, which is one of Lydon's strengths.

So I don't get this "he's not a 3" argument at all. We want him on one wing and Andrew White on the other, most of the time, so we have 2 three point threats to go with whoever is currently handling the ball and starting the offense.

I view him more as a natural 4 as I stated. Didn't say he wasn't a 3 or couldn't be. Agreed its a non issue for us on defense. Lydon can certainly play pick n pop against the 3 just as well as he can as the 4. I think he would struggle to drive the ball on 3's (although we didn't get to see much of that aspect of his game either way last year so that's a guess). I expect a stronger more developed Lydon to show us some more traditional highpost and back to the basket PF offense this season. Agreed he's going to be on the wing quite often this season no matter which forward spot he is playing.

 

[Knicks411]

You can't compare a white guy to a black guy anyway. Everyone knows that.

 

[RF2044]

I view him more as a natural 4 as I stated. Didn't say he wasn't a 3 or couldn't be. Agreed its a non issue for us on defense. Lydon can certainly play pick n pop against the 3 just as well as he can as the 4. I think he would struggle to drive the ball on 3's (although we didn't get to see much of that aspect of his game either way last year so that's a guess). I expect a stronger more developed Lydon to show us some more traditional highpost and back to the basket PF offense this season. Agreed he's going to be on the wing quite often this season no matter which forward spot he is playing.

Spot on. Generally on this board, we tend to see people getting too hung up on positions when in fact skill sets and how well those skill sets mesh with various personnel groupings out on the floor are the more important factors.

Until he demonstrates otherwise [he could very well have expanded his game over the off-season], the only skill Lydon has shown that fits as a 3 is outside shooting. He hasn't shown the ability to put it on the floor, handle pressure, pass, create for himself or others, etc. So what does that mean? There are definitely lineups where we can get away with playing Lydon at the 3. Those lineups would generally feature players in the backcourt [meaning BOTH the point and the other wing position] that can compensate for him being a non-ball handler by shouldering the bulk of the load with those responsibilities.

In a lineup that lacks strong ballhandling at the 1 / 2, then having Lydon out there as the 3 isn't a great "fit." What Lydon brings to the table as a 3 wouldn't optimally mesh with the players on the floor around him. It is all about complimentary skill sets with the lineup.

I agree with you that Lydon projects as more of a natural stretch 4. He often gets compared to Chandler Parsons, but he'd have to expand his all around floor game [beyond the shooting, which is already superlative] to play the 3 full time.

I agree that it doesn't make much difference on the defensive side of the ball in our system.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Why did Luc Richard Mbah a Moute start 56 more games this year than Jamal Crawford?

14ppg > > 3ppg.

Well, for starters they play different positions. Gillon and Howard, you may have noticed, are both PGs.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I view him more as a natural 4 as I stated. Didn't say he wasn't a 3 or couldn't be. Agreed its a non issue for us on defense. Lydon can certainly play pick n pop against the 3 just as well as he can as the 4. I think he would struggle to drive the ball on 3's (although we didn't get to see much of that aspect of his game either way last year so that's a guess). I expect a stronger more developed Lydon to show us some more traditional highpost and back to the basket PF offense this season. Agreed he's going to be on the wing quite often this season no matter which forward spot he is playing.

If Lydon and White are both at , then you probably need to have Gillon and Battle at guard, for the penetration. If you have those guys out there, you don't need your 3 to drive, too. It would get too congested inside.

Doing that, though, you give up different parts of our offense. I could see Lydon doing the high-low action, but I'm not sure we have a really good inside finisher, aside from maybe Thompson. I think Lydon and White together spreads out the floor, opening up driving lanes for the 2 guards.