i don't mind duke playing zone

[orangecuse]

The annoying part about this, Kingtidge, is that you already know this. But I'm going to regurgitate the obvious yet again just in case there is someone that has been on another planet for the last ten years.

What Boeheim has done is to modify the SU zone so that is now something that is related to the zones of the past, but that is different enough so that it probably deserves a different name. Some have tried with "a zone, with Man-to-Man principles" or "an aggressive, not passive zone" or an "amoeba zone"..

And it has evolved from a defensive strategy to a Team Strategy. Recruiting longer players to play the zone is was an extension of it. So rather than just defending a part of the floor, the zone is now clogging up the passing lanes while extending amoeba-like out to challenge shooters at the 3 pt. line and beyond.

And by committing to the 2-3 zone 100%, and getting players to thoroughly understand it, he can make subtle in-game adjustments that would be much more difficult if the zone were just one of the defenses SU played. (Sometimes it's a 2-3 zone and sometimes it's something else)

How many times have you heard the pre-game analysis include, "It's impossible for opposing coaches to simulate the SU zone in practice because the teams can't duplicate the length and the athleticism of the SU players".

We all watch enough college basketball to see other teams using zones at times. But these zones to me look a lot like the one I learned in high school.

Do you really think Coach K. needs help installing a regular zone defense? What he needed was help installing the Syracuse-Boeheim variant of the zone.

No defense is perfect. The SU zone has inherent weaknesses that some teams exploit if they have the right kind of skills and players. (e.g., Pitt over the years). And the more other teams and coaches see it, the less confused by it. In the NCAA's, where teams might have never played against it, its a real SU advantage.

What is the difference between the prestigious match up zone Chaney at Temple mastered from yesteryear vs. the modern day JB zone?

 

[Townie72]

I don't mind anyone having a take...

I just don't like a rehash of what's already posted that starts with a personal insult.

Not much of an insult, I said you knew everything I was going to post.

Besides, you wrote Boeheim "popularized" the zone.

That might be somewhat true. But what he really did was to re-invent it and to incorporate into a new kind of team strategy in which the defense drove the players needed and recruited.

Who else has done that?

 

[kingtidge]

No personal insults!

And I don't know that we really got that off topic...

Where Duke is concerned, I think K obviously learned tactical use of the hybrid zone from Boeheim through their collaborative work on team USA, of course...

Whatever we want to call the cuse zone "Hybrid Man Trap" zone or the "J-Bizzle" zone, whatever...

K learned those principles from JB and has determined he definitely likes it in situational/matchup games or with duke teams that have more size... which makes sense.

Plus now that we're in conference and he's playing against us more (and losing to it), I'm sure getting his guys to play it also helps them learn better to defend it (or at least try to...)

 

[Townie72]

What is the difference between the prestigious match up zone Chaney at Temple mastered from yesteryear vs. the modern day JB zone?

I'm not sure I can do Cheyney's zone justice in describing it. That was 15 years ago and I don't think I watched Temple over a couple of times. I couldn't tell you about how the zone moved, how much trapping there was, or how the "slides" worked.

Boeheim's zone is related to a match up zone. I don't think Cheyney recruited to it,

 

[Townie72]

No personal insults!

And I don't know that we really got that off topic...

Where Duke is concerned, I think K obviously learned tactical use of the zone from Boeheim through their collaborative work on team USA, of course...

Whatever we want to call the cuse zone "Hybrid Man Trap" zone or the "J-Bizzle" zone, whatever...

K learned those principles from JB and has determined he definitely likes it in situational/matchup games or with duke teams that have more size... which makes sense.

Plus now that we're in conference and he's playing against us more (and losing to it), I'm sure getting his guys to play it also helps them learn better to defend it (or at least try to...)

Your point about playing the zone and increased ability to attack one sounds right. It's logical.

But, in practice, it doesn't seem to actually translate. We are actually not that good against zones when we face them and we were horrific against the Georgia Tech zone.

 

[kingtidge]

What is the difference between the prestigious match up zone Chaney at Temple mastered from yesteryear vs. the modern day JB zone?

J-Bizzle zone is not a pure match-up zone.

Chaney would do a pure matchup, so if the opponent came down the court 1-3-1, he'd match up 1-3-1. If they come down 2-3, he'd match up 2-3.

J-Bizzle sticks to 2-3 and makes adjustments according to their players. It's a partial match-up .

 

[kingtidge]

Your point about playing the zone and increased ability to attack one sounds right. It's logical.

But, in practice, it doesn't seem to actually translate. We are actually not that good against zones when we face them and we were horrific against the Georgia Tech zone.

I would bet that has as much to do with how well our practice B-sqaud (with freshman and smaller walkons) plays/practices zone more than anything else... and I bet they're not the cat's pajamas by any stretch.

If your starters are playing against a crappy zone in practice, the "hard to replicate in practice" argument is valid no matter who you are.

 

[Townie72]

I would bet that has as much to do with how well our practice B-sqaud (with freshman and smaller walkons) plays/practices zone more than anything else... and I bet they're not the cat's pajamas by any stretch.

If your starters are playing against a crappy zone in practice, the "hard to replicate in practice" argument is valid no matter who you are.

It's that or that we can't run the 7 or 8 things you need to run to attack the zone ater playing against M2M all season. JB likes to say there are an almost unlimited nmber of things you can run against M2M, but only 7 or 8 things you can do against a zone.

He points out with that few offensive alternatives, that its easier to recognize and adapt to what the offense is trying to do.

But on the offensive side you have to remember what to do and how to do it.

How many times have you seen teams against the SU burn 20 seconds just passing around trying to come up with something they think will work?

 

[OrangeDW]

I’m all for Duke playing zone just so their stupid fans are forced to walk back their past meathead comments. They fancied their team as some fundamentally sound, scrappy “tough” team that played the “right” way back when they played that overplaying “hard nosed” pressure man to man...that good opposing guards and athletes often ate for lunch when Duke didn’t have a good rim protector.

Now they gotta own their own past meatheadedness.

 

[kingtidge]

How many times have you seen teams against the SU burn 20 seconds just passing around trying to come up with something they think will work?

Baffled by the zone - it happens.

We've been doing that on our offensive sets against man and zone sets too much this year!

Equal opportunity baffled.

 

[Townie72]

Baffled by the zone - it happens.

We've been doing that on our offensive sets against man and zone sets too much this year!

Equal opportunity baffled.

The good news is that Battle has figured out that the promised reinforcements are coming in the number promised (Some help, but not much), so he has gone back to trying to take over games on offense.

 

[kingtidge]

The good news is that Battle has figured out that the promised reinforcements are coming in the number promised (Some help, but not much), so he has gone back to trying to take over games on offense.

Beast mode Battle is what we want.

When he looks to share the rock too much, our offense turns into to hot potato whip around and a shot clock race to see who gets stuck at the end lobbing a bad trey...