I guess I have a hard time with people getting so up in arms

[IthacaBarrel]

about a position coach, a coordinator, I get that but position coaches come and go everywhere and unless they are great recruiters, probably not a huge loss. Conley looked good when he had two NFL players last year, this year he looked bad when he had one guy playing out of position, one guy who is probably too small and step slow, another guy, a freshman that was a wide receiver last year who will most likley be pretty damn good. I doubt Conley was let go for just coaching linebackers...

How hard were or are these guys working is the question? Recruiting wise? are the underminding Marrone's authority? I don't know nor does anyone else but I would think its safe to say that Conley was let go for more than just his linebackers same with Jimmy B.

IMO, there are two coaches on this staff that would be tough to replace, Wheat and Shafer. And Shafer sucked last year too.

 

[GoSU96]

Problem with Shafer's defense is that unless you stone cold kill the run, the pass defense is unsound. A high risk approach is fine if you win the the plays in your favor.

Last year they were 7th in the country against the run, could dictate favorable down and distance, and he could bring pressures.

This year they struggled to get favorable situations, and when they did, still gave up 1st downs.

They didn't get steamrolled like was feared this year, but gave up too many running and pass plays and were horrible on third down.

 

[Scooch]

Marrone should hire and fire whomever he wants. It's his program.

No one would say a word about who the friggin' LB coach is if it wasn't a popular alum who's chummy with the board.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Problem with Shafer's defense is that unless you stone cold kill the run, the pass defense is unsound. A high risk approach is fine if you win the the plays in your favor.

Last year they were 7th in the country against the run, could dictate favorable down and distance, and he could bring pressures.

This year they struggled to get favorable situations, and when they did, still gave up 1st downs.

They didn't get steamrolled like was feared this year, but gave up too many running and pass plays and were horrible on third down.

Don't disagree, part of the high risk approach for sure. People love it when it works, I also think we need much better play at the linebacker position to pull it off. The issues with the read option and running qb was on the backers as well, very furstrating. Nothing more frustrating to watch than a team that can't get off the field on 3rd down or a team that can't stay on the field on offense

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Marrone should hire and fire whomever he wants. It's his program.

No one would say a word about who the friggin' LB coach is if it wasn't a popular alum who's chummy with the board.

Agree 100%. It's part of the gig for both Marrone and Conley

 

[Cadillac]

Agree, and on the flip side, I'm not doing cartwheels if Hackett gets let go or moved somewhere else UNLESS it's to make room for a recruiter. I thought he did okay considering, but SS and TW are the only guys we can't upgrade.

Wish things could have worked out with Conley but if you can add another recruiter or give special teams a coach we'll all be very forgiving.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Agree, and on the flip side, I'm not doing cartwheels if Hackett gets let go or moved somewhere else UNLESS it's to make room for a recruiter. I thought he did okay considering, but SS and TW are the only guys we can't upgrade.

Wish things could have worked out with Conley but if you can add another recruiter or give special teams a coach we'll all be very forgiving.

Agree, and as many have said unless you have direct access to the staff and their daily duties, then it's really pointless to speculate. What we had this year is a team that underperformed in countless areas. Along with that we had team chemistry and locker room issues. I would imagine Marrone is doing his best to rectify all of these situations.

 

[kingottoiii]

Problem with Shafer's defense is that unless you stone cold kill the run, the pass defense is unsound. A high risk approach is fine if you win the the plays in your favor.

Last year they were 7th in the country against the run, could dictate favorable down and distance, and he could bring pressures.

This year they struggled to get favorable situations, and when they did, still gave up 1st downs.

They didn't get steamrolled like was feared this year, but gave up too many running and pass plays and were horrible on third down.

We stunk last year against the run. Did you not see the Colgate, Louisville, UConn, RU, and BC games? Statistically we weren't bad (41st) but we couldn't get off the field vs rushing teams. We were actually statistically better against the run this season (32nd). And we did start the year pretty good vs the run. It was our best run D since Shafer has been here. Then after the WV it all fell apart and we couldn't stop anyone.

And we struggled to make stops on 3rd down the last two years under Shafer. We were 39.3% on 3rd down which was outside of the Top 50 last year. His D IMO has gotten worse every year.

Now Shafer was had some completely awesome games the last two years. And his D played a huge part in many of our Ws. However there have also been an equal amount of stinkers. I do wonder how much of this has to do with Marrone. Because the style of Shafer's D was much different year 1. Since then the D has seemed to take an approach to bend but don't break. Shorten games and try and keep things as low scoring as possible. Which is a complete turn around from 2009. So either his D has gotten worse each year (which is a bad sign) or he has changed his style in an effort to help out a limited O. In which case his D has been a failure because his D can't play that style.

IMO playing our playing not to lose, grind out Ws isn't the right way to go about things. Our O isn't good enough to sustain long scoring drives. And our D playing bend but don't break, rarely gives the O a short field. I rather we go back to the 2009 D and let things fall as they may.

 

[OrangePA]

Agree 100%. It's part of the gig for both Marrone and Conley

I agree as well.

 

[SoBristol]

OK -- Marrone and Shafer need to be able to rotate/upgrade (whatever) the coaching crews under their command. I am willing to wait to see if the replacements are better recruiters or motivators or a better fit with Doug.

But let's not fault Conley because the LB talent was weak -- unless you believe he should have recruited better 3 years ago, was responsible for EJ Carter leaving or Cater lifting TVs, or you believe Conley should have brought in another JUCO at a LB spot. We knew going into this season that the LBs were undersized and inexperienced. We also knew that kids like Davis & Lynch were good recruits who would be fine as juniors; just not this year. We knew that Shafer's attacking defense would have pluses and minuses. It is not as if Shafer's secondary made great strides, or Anselmo was a wizard with his position responsibilities.
.
Maybe Conley was in charge of the coverage teams (specials)? Which ever coach was in charge of that unit should be looking for a new job.

I suspect some of the uproar (in addition to the respect for Dan C as a player) is the feeling that the defense was known to be down this year, but the offense was loaded with vets and did not perform. Or that Conley brought positive emotion on the sidelines, in contrast to Marrone's demeanor. Or that Marrone said it was on his own shoulders when the team hit the skids in November.

 

[chakka3421]

about a position coach, a coordinator, I get that but position coaches come and go everywhere and unless they are great recruiters, probably not a huge loss. Conley looked good when he had two NFL players last year, this year he looked bad when he had one guy playing out of position, one guy who is probably too small and step slow, another guy, a freshman that was a wide receiver last year who will most likley be pretty damn good. I doubt Conley was let go for just coaching linebackers...

How hard were or are these guys working is the question? Recruiting wise? are the underminding Marrone's authority? I don't know nor does anyone else but I would think its safe to say that Conley was let go for more than just his linebackers same with Jimmy B.

IMO, there are two coaches on this staff that would be tough to replace, Wheat and Shafer. And Shafer sucked last year too.

For once, I agree with you up to the last sentence!

 

[upperdeck]

hard to really know why the D struggles, but the focus was to put the team in good down and distance positions and that it did pretty well for much of the games. I still think the LB play was more a problem than the DB play even though the DBs looked bad so many times.. Confusion seemed to be the issue more than scheme to me though. the LB's consistently were out of position on pass routes and coverages.. the DBs blew coverages/assignments. I'm not sure anyone here can state which is the worse evil. We had issues with the DB's all playing hurt and that led to some huge plays as well.

 

[PhatOrange]

Now Shafer was had some completely awesome games the last two years. And his D played a huge part in many of our Ws. However there have also been an equal amount of stinkers. I do wonder how much of this has to do with Marrone. Because the style of Shafer's D was much different year 1. Since then the D has seemed to take an approach to bend but don't break. Shorten games and try and keep things as low scoring as possible. Which is a complete turn around from 2009. So either his D has gotten worse each year (which is a bad sign) or he has changed his style in an effort to help out a limited O. In which case his D has been a failure because his D can't play that style.

I don't agree with that at all. Schaf still has (and played) the same aggressive philosophy imho.

The overall D just wasn't that good so sometimes the approach has to be different, dependant upon the personel, but they still brought a lot of pressure all season, with corners playing man.

The defense this season was supposed to be far worse than it actually was. People over estimated having to replace Mike Holmes, Dmon Merkerson, Doug Hogue, Derrel Smith, Max Suter and 3 senior DT's in Tribbey/Lewis/Perkins.

 

[SoBristol]

hard to really know why the D struggles, but the focus was to put the team in good down and distance positions and that it did pretty well for much of the games. I still think the LB play was more a problem than the DB play even though the DBs looked bad so many times.. Confusion seemed to be the issue more than scheme to me though. the LB's consistently were out of position on pass routes and coverages.. the DBs blew coverages/assignments. I'm not sure anyone here can state which is the worse evil. We had issues with the DB's all playing hurt and that led to some huge plays as well.

No doubt the LB play was a big issue -- but again, we knew that going in. We lost two stars who played virtually every minute in 2010; we were playing kids and those kids are undersized. Biggest talent gap versus our rivals (in my opinion) was in the LB unit. You can debate whether the LB crew showed progress to the extent desired, but the returning crew for 2012 will be in a good shape, supported by a host of LB recruits.
Secondary -- loaded in comparison entering the year, with Anderson, both Thomases and Lyn, along with Kevyn Scott who had starting experience. Back ups included a senior Juco (Fisher) and Wilkes who had played a lot as a frosh. Unlike the LBs, we weren't relying on frosh in the secondary. The secondary had some morale issues -- whereas, I am not aware of any among the LBs. Secondary unit will be in tatters as we head into 2012.

 

[kingottoiii]

I don't agree with that at all. Schaf still has (and played) the same aggressive philosophy imho.

The overall D just wasn't that good so sometimes the approach has to be different, dependant upon the personel, but they still brought a lot of pressure all season, with corners playing man.

The defense this season was supposed to be far worse than it actually was. People over estimated having to replace Mike Holmes, Dmon Merkerson, Doug Hogue, Derrel Smith, Max Suter and 3 senior DT's in Tribbey/Lewis/Perkins.

Again I am saying we were not that good on D for our 2010 season. We had 3 good games and the rest were poor. So the change in talent is not an excuse.

 

[SoBristol]

Again I am saying we were not that good on D for our 2010 season. We had 3 good games and the rest were poor. So the change in talent is not an excuse.

This is far-fetched. Defense in 2010 was top 10 in scoring defense (fewest points allowed). Almost single-handedly responsible for road wins at SoFla (9 pts allowed); at West Virginia (14 pts allowed); at Rutgers (10 pts allowed); plus held Colgate, Akron and Maine to a total of 3 TDs. In several losses, the offense turned it over (Cincy) or did practically nothing (UConn, BC). The offense did not show up in the second half against Louisville. The change in talent (esp at LB) is not an excuse -- it was evident to anyone paying attention.

 

[kingottoiii]

This is far-fetched. Defense in 2010 was top 10 in scoring defense (fewest points allowed). Almost single-handedly responsible for road wins at SoFla (9 pts allowed); at West Virginia (14 pts allowed); at Rutgers (10 pts allowed); plus held Colgate, Akron and Maine to a total of 3 TDs. In several losses, the offense turned it over (Cincy) or did practically nothing (UConn, BC). The offense did not show up in the second half against Louisville. The change in talent (esp at LB) is not an excuse -- it was evident to anyone paying attention.

The D was awful 2nd half vs UW, 1st half vs Maine, vs Colgate, vs Pitt, vs Louisville, vs RU, vs UConn, vs BC, and vs K St. The D was awesome 2nd half vs Maine, vs USF, vs WV, and vs Cincy. It did the job against Akron and 1st half against UW.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The defense this season was supposed to be far worse than it actually was.

And the offense was supposed to be far better than it actually was.

I mean, according to expectations the defense did better than expected and the offense did awful.

 

[Millhouse]

Problem with Shafer's defense is that unless you stone cold kill the run, the pass defense is unsound. A high risk approach is fine if you win the the plays in your favor.

Last year they were 7th in the country against the run, could dictate favorable down and distance, and he could bring pressures.

This year they struggled to get favorable situations, and when they did, still gave up 1st downs.

They didn't get steamrolled like was feared this year, but gave up too many running and pass plays and were horrible on third down.

pass defense is unsound everywhere (except for teams playing us) so it's not like shafer's defense is that high risk compared to any other alternatives.

 

[Millhouse]

Marrone should hire and fire whomever he wants. It's his program.

No one would say a word about who the friggin' LB coach is if it wasn't a popular alum who's chummy with the board.

i thought the LB coach position is a springboard to the HC position

 

[SoBristol]

The D was awful 2nd half vs UW, 1st half vs Maine, vs Colgate, vs Pitt, vs Louisville, vs RU, vs UConn, vs BC, and vs K St. The D was awesome 2nd half vs Maine, vs USF, vs WV, and vs Cincy. It did the job against Akron and 1st half against UW.

Fine -- and by that reckoning, the defense was good enough to get us into a bowl. In several games we lost (UConn, BC, Louisville), the failures on offense were a far bigger contributor. Eventually, if an offense does nothing, the defense will wear down. Overall, it is a simple matter of comparing how SU ranked in scoring defense (top 10) versus how it ranked in any category on offense (top 95 at best), apart from running off-guard with Carter. It isn't even debatable.

 

[kingottoiii]

Fine -- and by that reckoning, the defense was good enough to get us into a bowl. In several games we lost (UConn, BC, Louisville), the failures on offense were a far bigger contributor. Eventually, if an offense does nothing, the defense will wear down. Overall, it is a simple matter of comparing how SU ranked in scoring defense (top 10) versus how it ranked in any category on offense (top 95 at best), apart from running off-guard with Carter. It isn't even debatable.

Just because the O blew doesn't mean the D wasn't bad as well.

 

[PhatOrange]

Again I am saying we were not that good on D for our 2010 season. We had 3 good games and the rest were poor. So the change in talent is not an excuse.

I agree the D wasn't that good. What I disagree with is this:

"the style of Shafer's D was much different year 1. Since then the D has seemed to take an approach to bend but don't break. Shorten games and try and keep things as low scoring as possible. Which is a complete turn around from 2009."

His is style is no different, not even a little bit.

 

[kingottoiii]

I agree the D wasn't that good. What I disagree with is this:

"the style of Shafer's D was much different year 1. Since then the D has seemed to take an approach to bend but don't break. Shorten games and try and keep things as low scoring as possible. Which is a complete turn around from 2009."

His is style is no different, not even a little bit.

IMO we saw more blitzing and more press coverage the first 8 games or so in year 1. We also saw a sell out to stop the run by the Ss and left our CBs on an island. Since then we have seen the CBs back off quite a bit and less emphasis on stopping the run. Obviously we still see press coverage and blitzes but IMO it isn't as often. There were countless times this year where we rushed three guys on 3rd down and sit back in a zone only to give up a 12 yard gain. We didn't see that year 1 and it seemed to be a staple this year. Shafer started off with an attacking D and the last two years we have only seen that against certain opponents. The rest of the time we have seen a lot of bend but don't break.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

All I know, is that a few years back I was pissed that DW was not going to be coaching RBs at Syracuse anymore... now we have TW... Since then I have decided that, while I like the idea of a bunch of former Cuse players coaching the team, I would have to really believe that they were stud coaches before getting all worked up about some of them not working out.

I'm looking forward to see who we can find as a replacement.