I hate to say it

[Jasoncuse]

But this program is in a dark place and basically turning into a joke.

Losing today's game to an awful mid-major is just another step towards irrellavance. I've never been so down on the program but today is getting there.

I'm not seeing how this team can turn it around this year or over the next few. Defense and the interior on both ends continues to be downright bad. And can Hop coach? 4 games into his tenure and he's not looking too hot. St. John's just abused the D, a team that scored 48 against Niagara earlier this week. Without kids that can play it or are willing to play it well, the 2-3 is more hindrance than help. The team just doesn't look capable of defending well or rebounding out of it.

The Bahamas games were an aberration, something that appears pretty apparent at this point. Last year was bad, but the r st of this season looks to be getting worse than that.

What exactly can be done? Where is the hope?

 

[FrancoPizza]

Might as well say it here... JB is trending towards Bowden and dean smith sunset territory... minus all the titles of course.

I'm past panicking and in full on acceptance. Very sad.

 

[bevosu]

Last year we were an average or below average basketball team. We lost Rak. Rak was most of our offense...and furnished inside D (although he played D conservatively...couldn't risk fouling out)...and rebounding.

Most of us thought G played well and he'd be the foundation of this year's team...but a lot of us were cautious about expectations this year. I know I was.

Sure ..Howard, Richardson, and Lydon, looked like decent recruits, but they're freshman. The rest of the team was also very questionable. People were going to be playing out of position...doubt about the front line. Coleman...who knew? Hope that TRob would progress. KJ?

A lot of unanswered questions coming into this season. The Atlantis run gave hope. It's early and some of the obvious flaws this team has have become cause for concern. Consistent outside shooting, offense inside. Rebounding, inside D. Not seeing a lot of fast break points. A seemingly hap hazard offense.

I think this team is hampered by not having the pieces necessary to be a better than average team. A team like this needs an elite PG to run the offense and create, because this team is positionally flawed.

An elite PG could maximize the offensive potential of the rest of this awkwardly assembled team. Even that might not be enough to make this team a top 25 team?

G is great, and he's doing an incredible job, but he is playing out of position. Richardson should ideally be playing 2G imo...Lydon and G at forward. Trob and Cooney are the only players getting minutes that are playing their natural positions.

The team could click. I hope they do, but I'm not optimistic, and I wasn't before the season started...many of us weren't. The national press (not always right) had serious doubts. The rocky road shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Brooky03]

"But this program is in a dark place and basically turning into a joke."

I understand feeling depressed after the St. John's game, but this is potentially the most inaccurate opening sentence I've seen in a thread here. Yes, the last two teams haven't been good, and the sanctions suck, but it's not as if the light at the end of the tunnel isn't within arms reach. Next year's team is probably going to be nasty, and I'm betting my board life right now that they finish the season in the Top 25.

Last year's team probably wouldn't have been that bad either if CMac didn't go down (maybe 2-3 more wins and NCAAT-bound if not also for the ban). And this year's team, though it's not looking good now, has a lot of basketball left to play.

Everybody should take a step or two back from the ledge.

 

[Brian Orange]

Whoa, that's a lot of gloom and doom in your first sentence.

I will say this, you can really feel the transition the program is in right now. Just feels like we had our run since 2010 and now we're in the transition where we come back down to earth a bit as a program. Add in the JB to Hop change, etc and that's where we are right now.

 

[MGP]

 

[Jasoncuse]

"But this program is in a dark place and basically turning into a joke."

I understand feeling depressed after the St. John's game, but this is potentially the most inaccurate opening sentence I've seen in a thread here. Yes, the last two teams haven't been good, and the sanctions suck, but it's not as if the light at the end of the tunnel isn't within arms reach. Next year's team is probably going to be nasty, and I'm betting my board life right now that they finish the season in the Top 25.

Last year's team probably wouldn't have been that bad either if CMac didn't go down (maybe 2-3 more wins and NCAAT-bound if not also for the ban). And this year's team, though it's not looking good now, has a lot of basketball left to play.

Everybody should take a step or two back from the ledge.

Yeah, maybe it was a bit overdramatic, but right now, we're going to end up with another under 20 win team in all likelihood. We are still without 2 schollies per year. I don't see any offensive threat on the interior next year. Chukwu will be a great addition to the D, but I doubt he scores more than 6-8 ppg. From where the program was leading up to the past couple of years to where it's at now, it's pretty bleak.

Next year's team is probably going to be nasty, and I'm betting my board life right now that they finish the season in the Top 25.

We heard that about this team and how loaded it was supposed to be. Until we find quality PG play (hopefully it's Battle) and an interior scoring threat, while improving rebounding and the D, which is a ton of things that need to improve, how can we expect to be where we want this program to be? Hopefully, a lineup w/Chukwu at the 5, Lydon at the 4, Roberson at the 3, and Mal and Battle at Guard will provide more than enough size to improve the defense and rebounding.

 

[orangenirvana]

btw - Saint John's is not a "mid-major."

 

[Brooky03]

Yeah, maybe it was a bit overdramatic, but right now, we're going to end up with another under 20 win team in all likelihood. We are still without 2 schollies per year. I don't see any offensive threat on the interior next year. Chukwu will be a great addition to the D, but I doubt he scores more than 6-8 ppg. From where the program was leading up to the past couple of years to where it's at now, it's pretty bleak.

Next year's team is probably going to be nasty, and I'm betting my board life right now that they finish the season in the Top 25.

We heard that about this team and how loaded it was supposed to be. Until we find quality PG play (hopefully it's Battle) and an interior scoring threat, while improving rebounding and the D, which is a ton of things that need to improve, how can we expect to be where we want this program to be? Hopefully, a lineup w/Chukwu at the 5, Lydon at the 4, Roberson at the 3, and Mal and Battle at Guard will provide more than enough size to improve the defense and rebounding.

When did we expect this year's team to be remarkable? Before CMac left early, I know there was some expectation that we wouldn't be bad. Before Diagne fell through, I know I was excited. But I don't think anybody projected this team to be top 25. Certainly after those to events, nobody thought this team was going to be anything other than a team that would hopefully get into the NCAAT. We were projected to finish 9th in the ACC to start this season. Next year's team will be projected top 3 or 4 in the ACC.

Edit: And yes, you're right, that lineup will improve the defense and rebounding significantly. A Boeheim zone with two 6'6" guards, two 6'8" fowards, and a 7'2" center couldn't be bad if it tried. I also don't see how the rebounding could be below average with a lineup like that. Factor in the (finally!) legitimate backups we'll have, and the only thing the team is missing is upperclassmen. While I love upperclassmen as much as the next guy, that team's age will probably be about par for the course in today's environement and certianly bodes well for the future. I haven't given up on this year's team yet, but I am pumped up for next year's.

 

[realorange]

Many posters, including myself, agreed that this was going to be an up and down team. Winning some games we shouldn't and losing some that we shouldn't. What's the big surprise?

I understand the disappointment at not having a better, more consistently good team. BUT, how can you criticize what was likely going to be the situation to begin with? Freshman who are still struggling to understand the system and appreciate the pace of D-1 BB and add a weak interior, how much better can we be right now?

We will be a better team as the year goes on, but don't expect us to be sweet 16 caliber.

And for the life of me, I don't understand how Hop takes heat for players who don't make layups and free throws let alone a decent field goal percentage.

I'll be the first one to support this team no matter what. I thought that was what real fans did.

LGO

 

[ClamOtto]

When did we expect this year's team to be remarkable? Before CMac left early, I know there was some expectation that we wouldn't be bad. Before Diagne fell through, I know I was excited. But I don't think anybody projected this team to be top 25. Certainly after those to events, nobody thought this team was going to be anything other than a team that would hopefully get into the NCAAT. We were projected to finish 9th in the ACC to start this season. Next year's team will be projected top 3 or 4 in the ACC.

Edit: And yes, you're right, that lineup will improve the defense and rebounding significantly. A Boeheim zone with two 6'6" guards, two 6'8" fowards, and a 7'2" center couldn't be bad if it tried. I also don't see how the rebounding could be below average with a lineup like that. Factor in the (finally!) legitimate backups we'll have, and the only thing the team is missing is upperclassmen. While I love upperclassmen as much as the next guy, that team's age will probably be about par for the course in today's environement and certianly bodes well for the future. I haven't given up on this year's team yet, but I am pumped up for next year's.

Agree next year looks promising but I'm going to temper my enthusiasm until it gets a lot closer. A lot can happen in the next 10 months (see, Ennis, Grant, McCullough, Diagne just to name some recent examples).

 

[RF2044]

Many posters, including myself, agreed that this was going to be an up and down team. Winning some games we shouldn't and losing some that we shouldn't. What's the big surprise?

I understand the disappointment at not having a better, more consistently good team. BUT, how can you criticize what was likely going to be the situation to begin with? Freshman who are still struggling to understand the system and appreciate the pace of D-1 BB and add a weak interior, how much better can we be right now?

We will be a better team as the year goes on, but don't expect us to be sweet 16 caliber.

And for the life of me, I don't understand how Hop takes heat for players who don't make layups and free throws let alone a decent field goal percentage.

I'll be the first one to support this team no matter what. I thought that was what real fans did.

LGO

Good post. When practice started, I suggested that the biggest X-factor determinants of this team's success would be the level of production we got from Coleman and Joseph -- as the 5 and the 1 were the team's two biggest gaps that could potentially hold the team back this season, and the readiness of those two players to contribute at a high level [or not] would go a long way toward determining what this team's ceiling was.

Keep in mind that toward the end of last season / this summer, we heard about how well Coleman was playing, how he was holding his own against Rak, etc. and how Joseph improved more over the off-season than anybody on the roster.

So far, neither of them has shown any kind of consistency, let alone signs of contributing at the high level needed. At least Coleman has shown some flashes--which is more than I could say for Joseph.

My secondary factors were how much improvement we'd see from Roberson [who I thought could / should be a 13-14ppg / 9 rpg guy] and Cooney. Not that I expected more scoring from Cooney, just more consistency shooting the ball. And thus far, neither player has shown improvement. Roberson is stronger, and is an above average rebounder [which we already knew], but his stats are about the same as they were last year. He looks good scoring in some games, then is invisible other games. Not what I wanted to see. And Cooney isn't shooting the ball better at all, other than the uptick in Atlantis where he scored a ton in the lane.

0-4 on the X factors working out favorably, at least thus far.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Good post. When practice started, I suggested that the biggest X-factor determinants of this team's success would be the level of production we got from Coleman and Joseph -- as the 5 and the 1 were the team's two biggest gaps that could potentially hold the team back this season, and the readiness of those two players to contribute at a high level [or not] would go a long way toward determining what this team's ceiling was.

So far, neither of them has shown any kind of consistency, let alone signs of contributing at the high level needed. At least Coleman has shown some flashes--which is more than I could say for Joseph.

My secondary factors were how much improvement we'd see from Roberson [who I thought could / should be a 13-14ppg / 9 rpg guy] and Cooney. Not that I expected more scoring from Cooney, just more consistency shooting the ball. And thus far, neither player has shown improvement. Roberson is stronger, and is an above average rebounder [which we already knew], but his stats are about the same as they were last year. He looks good scoring in some games, then is invisible other games. Not what I wanted to see. And Cooney isn't shooting the ball better at all, other than the uptick in Atlantis where he scored a ton in the lane.

0-4 on the X factors working out favorably, at least thus far.

I can still see(hope) how Coleman and Cooney could still potentially play better as the season goes on.

I don't see Roberson ever being consistent here. I think I'd rather see Howard than Joseph.

 

[CusefanATL]

this is a really dumb post. We will be fine next year.

Sorry that you were temporarily blinded like a lot of us by the Bahamas but the team is exactly what we thought they were at the beginning of the year. A bubble team.

 

[IthacaMatt]

But this program is in a dark place and basically turning into a joke.

Losing today's game to an awful mid-major is just another step towards irrellavance. I've never been so down on the program but today is getting there.

I'm not seeing how this team can turn it around this year or over the next few. Defense and the interior on both ends continues to be downright bad. And can Hop coach?

What exactly can be done? Where is the hope?

You have to remember, our roster is all messed up because of the sanctions. Take a look at this team and add one or two talented big men - you can choose among Chris (We Hardly Knew Ye) McCullough, Thomas (Not Momma's Boy) Bryant, and Mustafa Diagne (probably spelled that one wrong). We could have added 2 of those talented big men to this roster. Then think about our current weaknesses - no interior defense, poor rebounding and no low post game. All of those would be fixed.

Cooney has become late era Gerry McNamara - some great games, but a lot of bad ones too. We don't really have a point guard, although we do have some excellent perimeter players.

I'm kind of looking at this as another "lost" season by our typical standards, but then I look ahead to next year and here's what I see:

A 3 guard rotation of Frank Howard and Tyus Battle sharing PG, Malachi Richardson at the two. That's 6-4, 6-6, 6-6 across the front of the zone. That's insane. Two of those guys are McDonald's level players. We will still maybe have Kaleb Joseph as a back-up PG. I think Frank Howard has moved past him, so either he'll stay and be a program guy like Allen Griffin, or he'll transfer out at the end of the year and we'll add another guy.

Then you look at the forwards - again, WOW. We will have Tyler Lyden playing his proper position and not trying to be a center. He is obviously a talent, but you can't expect him to play like an All-American every night. But we know he's good, and he opens up the floor. Then you have Roberson at the other forward. I love the way he grabs rebounds with both hands. His offense is still robotic and not quite there, but again, there is clearly talent. Then you add in Matthew Moyer, who is 6-8, versatile, talented and has a killer attitude. He is going to amp these guys up. Roberson still plays a little scared to me. I think that's the reason for his inconsistency, but he has the Beast within him. He just has to gain more confidence, and playing a major role this whole season is going to set him up to be very good next year. So that's a forward group that's 6-9, 6-8 and 6-8.

Then you get to the big men. Pascal Chukwu is 7-2, and maybe even taller than that. He is going to be a beast inside the zone. Then you still have Chino as insurance. I don't know if Coleman comes back for one more year or whether he leaves, but based on what we've seen so far, he still can contribute. If he was the second center into the game and not the first, I'd be very happy with what he has to offer. He would be a fine-back up on a very good team.

Then you figure we have room for one more big man, like Taurean Thompson from Brewster Academy, from the sounds of it. Maybe we get somebody else late. And then you look at the class after that, and we are involved with some very elite talent.

Mike Hopkins is a hell of a recruiter. We may get even better at recruiting when the Boss decides to step down. He will learn as a game coach. It's very tough to judge him right now because we have an unbalanced team, and he's being forced into the job in mid-season, which is very unsettling to the players. It's not like they started practice on October 15th and they knew from Day One that Mike was the new boss.

I think this year is going to be a trying year, and if we don't shoot better, we're going to have a tough year. Even at our best, this team is not really a contender at the level we are accustomed to. But we are not that far away.

I look at the roster and I see a real good core for next year. We will miss Silent G, but Cooney is what he is, and he is replaceable.

You have a likely starting lineup of Tyus Battle and Malachi Richardson at the guards, Tyler Squared at forward (a nice inside-outside combo), and then Chukwu guarding the paint. That team looks like a damn good team to me. Still a little young, but if they stick around for a year, and then fortify with the next class which is loaded with prospects, we look to me like a 25 win team next year and a championship contender again a year later.

HAVE THE FAITH!!!

 

[RF2044]

Good past, Matt. Next year's squad would really benefit from having one of the lead guards [Joseph or Howard] take the next step. Because that is shaping up to me next year's team main weakness, with all due respect to Battle, who is more of a combo than a pure point.

If one of those two emerges, then we are loaded next year. If not... it could be the team's Achilles heel next season.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Good past, Matt. Next year's squad would really benefit from having one of the lead guards [Joseph or Howard] take the next step. Because that is shaping up to me next year's team main weakness, with all due respect to Battle, who is more of a combo than a pure point.

If one of those two emerges, then we are loaded next year. If not... it could be the team's Achilles heel next season.

I agree, RF. I think Battle is going to start because of his pedigree, and then Frank will be the first guard into the game, moving Battle over to the two. I think Frank has the best PG demeanor of the guys who have been manning the position. I think he can be very successful for us, and I think Kaleb has missed his chance. These next 5 games or so that Mike is coaching will be telling. Mike substitutes a lot more than the Boss, and I really like his substitution patterns, especially going offense/defense with Coleman and Roberson late in games.

 

[RF2044]

I agree, RF. I think Battle is going to start because of his pedigree, and then Frank will be the first guard into the game, moving Battle over to the two. I think Frank has the best PG demeanor of the guys who have been manning the position. I think he can be very successful for us, and I think Kaleb has missed his chance. These next 5 games or so that Mike is coaching will be telling. Mike substitutes a lot more than the Boss, and I really like his substitution patterns, especially going offense/defense with Coleman and Roberson late in games.

Yup. And we'll have lots of versatility in terms of guys capable of playing multiple positions--Battle at the 1, 2, or 3 / Richardson at 2, 3 / Lydon at 4 or 5 / Moyer at 4 and potentially 3. So the core nucleus will be solid, assuming that Chukwu is what many of us think he WILL be manning the middle of the zone.

We don't know if we'll land Thompson, but it looks promising. Also don't know if Coleman will return; if he does, he's a great backup C, if not we can still survive with Lydon as the backup in the pivot.

Really all comes down to the point in my mind. Shooting should be pretty good with Richardson / Lydon returning, and what Battle brings to the table. Howard looked solid shooting the ball in the preseason [I know, I know...] but as a third or fourth complimentary shooter, should be adequate. Ditto Joseph if he sticks and figures things out.

But if neither of those two emerge, then I think we're weak at point. Literally, the team's one weakness on paper.

 

[jncuse]

Other than the Big 4 - Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, UNC... and maybe Michigan St if you consider the tourney, no team has been immune from a few major drop off seasons since the start of the century. Even Kentucky had issues in the Tubby / Gillespie era, and UNC has had a few stinker years as well.

In a way I think we were spoiled a bit by our success from 2019-2014. Only the elite of the elite can sustain that for a longer time. It's unfortunate we only came away with one final four over that 6 year run,

I just think it is asking too much of our coaches for our team to be a top 15 team year after year. You are going to have a few year dry run now and then.

 

[asj410]

Other than the Big 4 - Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, UNC... and maybe Michigan St if you consider the tourney, no team has been immune from a few major drop off seasons since the start of the century. Even Kentucky had issues in the Tubby / Gillespie era, and UNC has had a few stinker years as well.

Heck, Kentucky had a stinker under Calapari a couple of years ago when they lost in the first round of the NIT.

 

[cuseguy]

Heck, Kentucky had a stinker under Calapari a couple of years ago when they lost in the first round of the NIT.

They fired Tubby Smith after a pretty successful run.

They take basketball more seriously than SU.

 

[pearl31]

yeah the original post here is ridiculous. I mean, I was depressed as hell yesterday and was venting a bit, and am genuinely doubting this team's NCAA chances (not to say we can't make a little noise if a couple of things are improved)... but irrelevant? In a dark place? We're poised to have a vintage season next year, are in on some stallions for '17 and beyond, and the program is in good hands for the future.
Seriously, step away from the ledge.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Good past, Matt. Next year's squad would really benefit from having one of the lead guards [Joseph or Howard] take the next step. Because that is shaping up to me next year's team main weakness, with all due respect to Battle, who is more of a combo than a pure point.

If one of those two emerges, then we are loaded next year. If not... it could be the team's Achilles heel next season.

We are seeing what not having a PG can do to a team. I'm really hoping Battle is more PG than SG because we should have size and shooting around him. Someone that can run the offense and hopefully get into the lane will be huge.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I agree, RF. I think Battle is going to start because of his pedigree, and then Frank will be the first guard into the game, moving Battle over to the two. I think Frank has the best PG demeanor of the guys who have been manning the position. I think he can be very successful for us, and I think Kaleb has missed his chance. These next 5 games or so that Mike is coaching will be telling. Mike substitutes a lot more than the Boss, and I really like his substitution patterns, especially going offense/defense with Coleman and Roberson late in games.

Just a note on Battle, and I said this on the recruiting board, but I think people are going to be dissapointed if they think he is going to come in here and be a great shooter/scorer. He is a great talent, that just isn't his strength. Of all the players we have recruited recently, I think his skill set is most similar to MCW's.

 

[Jasoncuse]

yeah the original post here is ridiculous. I mean, I was depressed as hell yesterday and was venting a bit, and am genuinely doubting this team's NCAA chances (not to say we can't make a little noise if a couple of things are improved)... but irrelevant? In a dark place? We're poised to have a vintage season next year, are in on some stallions for '17 and beyond, and the program is in good hands for the future.
Seriously, step away from the ledge.

Yeah, I was frustrated, but still don't like the trajectory that the program has been taking lately. Maybe next year will be a much, much better year, but right now, these past two teams have been a couple of the worst SU teams in a long time. I didn't expect this team to be good at all, but didn't expect to be losing games like the St John's one in the fashion we did, or to a bad Wiscy team. Guess we are just really bad this year. Hopefully it's a blip instead of more.