Identity vs Due Diligence: Northeast

[baggerbob]

Because families can see their kids play. Sure, kids and families can fly back and forth to deliver kids to school, pick up at the end of the semester, parents’ day. Some do that. But it is a heck of a lot easier for mid-Atlantic, Ohio, NJ, PA, downstate families to drive to SU. Same for parts of Canada.

In our extended region, we have at least that advantage. In Florida, Texas, California - what advantage do we have versus 40 other programs? It is a hard slog as we have seen in the past 20 years.

Fran has offered more players from California in the last few months then our past 3 coaches combined.
He doesn't seem fazed by anything, seems if a player looks like someone they want they offer.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

They all want the best players. I was talking about getting the best players in the region as well as the country.

What do you mean by recruiting angle?

The prevailing argument of the board seems to be "We need to recruit in the Northeast." Which, we do. And we always have.

But there seems to be this continuous narrative that recruiting the Northeast harder will make Cuse a winner again.

When asked for explanation, the reasons why Syracuse needs to recruit the Northeast are all recruiting pitches - close to home, your parents can see you play, represent your home area, chip-on-shoulder, etc. Those are selling points to recruits that may or may not interest a high school junior.

My point is that recruiting a specific area is not a guarantee of success and such a templated approach isn't realistic.

 

[SoBristol]

The key is to get the best players. Where they come from is immaterial. Proximity to home is just a recruiting angle.

The key to getting the best players is what, in your opinion? Every program in the country wants the best players. Where is our edge? Where have we had success in this recent cycle?

If you followed recruiting under Babers you know there was almost zero pattern - very different year to year, a kid one year from one place, nobody the next year from that place. No genuine pipelines or regional success. We recruited Florida when we had Nick Monroe. We found a lineman in Wisconsin when we had a coach with roots there.

We were sending out more offers than almost any other program, then scrambling late to fill a class that ended up ranked between 50th and 60th in the country.

Fran’s approach seems very different. Load the staff with young guys who have recruited well, hit NJ and our drive-region, fill half the class early, create some buzz.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

The key to getting the best players is what, in your opinion? Every program in the country wants the best players. Where is our edge? Where have we had success in this recent cycle?

If you followed recruiting under Babers you know there was almost zero pattern - very different year to year, a kid one year from one place, nobody the next year from that place. No genuine pipelines or regional success. We recruited Florida when we had Nick Monroe. We found a lineman in Wisconsin when we had a coach with roots there.

We were sending out more offers than almost any other program, then scrambling late to fill a class that ended up ranked between 50th and 60th in the country.

Fran’s approach seems very different. Load the staff with young guys who have recruited well, hit NJ and our drive-region, fill half the class early, create some buzz.

This is a truism, but the key to getting the best players you can (and those who fit your scheme) is recruiting well.

But what you're talking about, the Babers cast-a-net approach vs. the Brown relationships approach, are just that - approaches. And thus far, it seems Brown and Co are doing their approach better than Babers ever could.

Marrone hammered the Tri-State area like Brown is and got the team to 7-5. Pasqualoni never stopped hammering the Northeast and the program withered under him for a multitude of reasons. So those are cases of the 6 hour radius approach not working all that well.

Again, it's not where the players are from. You can build hype anywhere. You can have relationships anywhere. And you find and take the best players you can. No coach is going to limit himself.

 

[money3189]

The prevailing argument of the board seems to be "We need to recruit in the Northeast." Which, we do. And we always have.

But there seems to be this continuous narrative that recruiting the Northeast harder will make Cuse a winner again.

When asked for explanation, the reasons why Syracuse needs to recruit the Northeast are all recruiting pitches - close to home, your parents can see you play, represent your home area, chip-on-shoulder, etc. Those are selling points to recruits that may or may not interest a high school junior.

My point is that recruiting a specific area is not a guarantee of success and such a templated approach isn't realistic.

No one will ever say don't recruit other areas. All coaches do but emphasizing your own territory is a priority for every coach as well. You can’t just win with kids in your region but you can’t neglect your own area either.

As far as making them a winner again. There are too many factors that determines that. Recruiting the whole country doesn’t guarantee success either. It’s doesn’t matter where the player comes from if the coach sucks or the admins team is not doing what it takes to help the program.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

No one will ever say don't recruit other areas. All coaches do but emphasizing your own territory is a priority for every coach as well. You can’t just win with kids in your region but you can’t neglect your own area either.

As far as making them a winner again. There are too many factors that determines that. Recruiting the whole country doesn’t guarantee success either. It’s doesn’t matter where the player comes from if the coach sucks or the admins team is not doing what it takes to help the program.

I'm not questioning the recruiting philosophy of the staff. And I very much understand there's a million factors that go into this.

I'm specifically calling out the crowd on here who think there's a correlation between winning and where the players are recruited from.

 

[money3189]

I'm not questioning the recruiting philosophy of the staff. And I very much understand there's a million factors that go into this.

I'm specifically calling out the crowd on here who think there's a correlation between winning and where the players are recruited from.

Well I haven’t engaged in that argument but I know SU has never won solely on kids from the northeast but a lot of their success with with kids from the region.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Well I haven’t engaged in that argument but I know SU has never won solely on kids from the northeast but a lot of their success with with kids from the region.

But like you said - there's a hundred things that happen to make a winner.

 

[IthacaMatt]

No college coach is going to take the Atletico Bilboa approach of limiting their roster to a specific regionality just for the sake of identity.

It's a relationships game - Brown has them in the general region and is working them. Marrone did the same thing (via Anselmo).

It's also a reflection of what type of player staffs are looking for. How Dino approached it and how FB is approaching it do not line up.

No, of course not, with respect to geographic "limitations".

But you need to recruit your home territory, within a reasonable drive time for the parents.
That covers Ohio, Eastern Michigan, Ontario, New England, PA, NJ, NY, MD, VA and DE.

Cover that territory where you can invest in HS coaching relationships without having to get on a plane every time you want to visit them.

You seek elite kids wherever you can find them. But you have to have a base.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

No, of course not, with respect to geographic "limitations".

But you need to recruit your home territory, within a reasonable drive time for the parents.
That covers Ohio, Eastern Michigan, Ontario, New England, PA, NJ, NY, MD, VA and DE.

Cover that territory where you can invest in HS coaching relationships without having to get on a plane every time you want to visit them.

You seek elite kids wherever you can find them. But you have to have a base.

If you NEED to have parents within driving distance, then how are all of the examples I've posted in this thread of players going to schools not within driving distance of home also true?

Why do you need to get on a plane to have a good relationship with someone, when Zoom and FaceTime and text are at everyone's fingertips?

And what's the value of being close when, thanks to HUDL, everyone has access to the same player tape and every player can be found?

 

[IthacaMatt]

If you NEED to have parents within driving distance, then how are all of the examples I've posted in this thread of players going to schools not within driving distance of home also true?

Why do you need to get on a plane to have a good relationship with someone, when Zoom and FaceTime and text are at everyone's fingertips?

And what's the value of being close when, thanks to HUDL, everyone has access to the same player tape and every player can be found?

While the parents are "nice to have", it's proximity to the coaches of regional HS powers that is far more important. That's why you recruit your driving range. When you hold camps for kids, they can get to see you, and you have already seen them before in their schools, or at regional camps.

 

[baggerbob]

While the parents are "nice to have", it's proximity to the coaches of regional HS powers that is far more important. That's why you recruit your driving range. When you hold camps for kids, they can get to see you, and you have already seen them before in their schools, or at regional camps.

See how many players from Florida, and California are coming to see Syracuse practice. I think players and Parents are spreading the word, " Fran will take care of your son, he understands it's more then football".

 

[JimBoston]

I agree with all of this but the speed from the south piece. I know this is a very common narrative but it’s just not backed up with facts. There are tons of fast kids from Jersey/Philly/Tri-State, in fact two of the three fastest high school track times this year were jersey kids (both committed to coach fran)

It’s pretty easy to understand why when you step back and think about it. Most speed is genetic as many people emphasize, meaning most of it you are born with (can be enhanced with training but the raw material comes at birth). What does Philly/Jersey/Tri-State have a lot of? Humans! If you have a ton of people you will get plenty of fast people, it’s just about finding them and coach fran is like a heat seeking missile to size and speed located within 5 hrs

Heck we just signed a 10.6 kid in our back yard, that’s fast in ANY state

In 2023, there were 65 Florida HS track athletes that ran 10.7 or better in the 100 meters and 5 in NY. There were 26 Florida HS athletes in 2023 that would have run the fastest 100 meters in NJ.

Speed can be improved and I would argue the Northeast athletes haven't maximized their speed in HS. Still, there are many players that are already fast in the South.

 

[RutgersAl]

SU should be getting the bulk of it recruits from NY/NJ/CT/PA, because your staff should know a lot about these recruits, and be better positioned to take good risks. True, you supplement with FL and CA speed, but your meat and potatoes have to come from your home base, if you are to maximize success. What are the meat and potatoes? Linemen, linemen, linemen. And Linebackers. You hit up FL for DBs and WRs. And you might hit up CA for QBs, because they are better prepared, coming into college. Rather than taking gym, they do something football related.

 

[money3189]

SU should be getting the bulk of it recruits from NY/NJ/CT/PA, because your staff should know a lot about these recruits, and be better positioned to take good risks. True, you supplement with FL and CA speed, but your meat and potatoes have to come from your home base, if you are to maximize success. What are the meat and potatoes? Linemen, linemen, linemen. And Linebackers. You hit up FL for DBs and WRs. And you might hit up CA for QBs, because they are better prepared, coming into college. Rather than taking gym, they do something football related.

I dont know how anyone can be blind to see the importance of recruiting your back yard. Literally every coach says it is.

 

[All4SU]

Recruit only players who like the color Orange. Certainly at least 10 percent of recruits out there must like orange. That alone gives us a decided advantage.

 

[RutgersAl]

I dont know how anyone can be blind to see the importance of recruiting your back yard. Literally every coach says it is.

Every coach says it, but if they are not effective at doing it, chances of success are very low. You also have to have strong networks in the area you are recruiting, because it is very difficult for an outsider to come in and establish same. This helps immensely in identifying the right players to recruit.

The exception would be an Urban Meyer type whose reputation would allow him to recruit anywhere.

Fran Brown has this. Coaches also have to be able to separate the wheat from the chafe. Player identification might be one of the most important skills to have. Especially being able to tell whether a two or three star can succeed at this level. And whether they have the character to do the work when no one is watching. Most kids don’t arrive on campus ready to contribute. They have to work at it, in the weight room, in the film room, and in every repitition they take in practice.

 

[money3189]

Fran Brown has this. Coaches also have to be able to separate the wheat from the chafe. Player identification might be one of the most important skills to have. Especially being able to tell whether a two or three star can succeed at this level. And whether they have the character to do the work when no one is watching. Most kids don’t arrive on campus ready to contribute. They have to work at it, in the weight room, in the film room, and in every repitition they take in practice.

Yup and you can rely more on their intel when you have strong relationships with area coaches. It allows them to get the under the radar kids with those desirable traits.

 

[upperdeck]

In 2023, there were 65 Florida HS track athletes that ran 10.7 or better in the 100 meters and 5 in NY. There were 26 Florida HS athletes in 2023 that would have run the fastest 100 meters in NJ.

Speed can be improved and I would argue the Northeast athletes haven't maximized their speed in HS. Still, there are many players that are already fast in the South.

Hard to be a track guy in NY where you can't run outside for 3-4-5 months of the year. Just like baseball up here. Some talented kids have to work really hard to make up for weather training issues.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I dont know how anyone can be blind to see the importance of recruiting your back yard. Literally every coach says it is.

My argument is not "it doesn't matter if we don't recruit locally." And it is definitely not "we shouldn't recruit locally."

My argument is "Cuse's lack of success over the last 20 year is not correlated to where the players are recruited from."

There's a big difference.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

While the parents are "nice to have", it's proximity to the coaches of regional HS powers that is far more important. That's why you recruit your driving range. When you hold camps for kids, they can get to see you, and you have already seen them before in their schools, or at regional camps.

Fran Brown was at Baylor for 2 years and Georgia for 2 years. And yet he still has strong coaching ties ties to New Jersey.

 

[Scooch]

And there-in lies my point. That's a false correlation. You can win with talent from anywhere and everywhere. And you can get talent in numerous ways. Sure, some of Cuse's issues have been talent related.

But you can't specifically connect losing records with where players went to high school. Because it's not nearly that simple.

I suspect the issue is that every program only has so many resources. Only so much money for their recruiting budget, only so many coaches to mine the pipeline, only so many relationships that can realistically be built.

So a program, especially one like ours, needs to be very purposeful in their recruiting strategy. It's an obvious point that it doesn't necessarily matter where premium talent resides. But that also ignores the logistical and practical realities of the recruiting game.

Yes, Boise State pulls from California. But that's a talent rich state in the same time zone as the school. It's not exactly a stretch for them to hit that state hard.

But what Boise State doesn't do is spend a ton of time and resources recruiting Georgia. Sure they might land a kid or two from there every so often. But that's why outliers are a thing, like us getting a QB from Oregon.

I don't care about some vague concept like "identity". But it only makes sense to put the majority of our efforts into an area where it can reap the most rewards. That's most likely to be a 6-ish hour radius around campus.

And we really can't dismiss the family access aspect to recruiting. There's a real appeal for a family being able to see nearly all of their kids games in person.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I suspect the issue is that every program only has so many resources. Only so much money for their recruiting budget, only so many coaches to mine the pipeline, only so many relationships that can realistically be built.

So a program, especially one like ours, needs to be very purposeful in their recruiting strategy. It's an obvious point that it doesn't necessarily matter where premium talent resides. But that also ignores the logistical and practical realities of the recruiting game.

Yes, Boise State pulls from California. But that's a talent rich state in the same time zone as the school. It's not exactly a stretch for them to hit that state hard.

But what Boise State doesn't do is spend a ton of time and resources recruiting Georgia. Sure they might land a kid or two from there every so often. But that's why outliers are a thing, like us getting a QB from Oregon.

I don't care about some vague concept like "identity". But it only makes sense to put the majority of our efforts into an area where it can reap the most rewards. That's most likely to be a 6-ish hour radius around campus.

And we really can't dismiss the family access aspect to recruiting. There's a real appeal for a family being able to see nearly all of their kids games in person.

I'm pulling some hard numbers on roster construction to put my argument to the test. I will post it, regardless of whether I'm right or wrong.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I suspect the issue is that every program only has so many resources. Only so much money for their recruiting budget, only so many coaches to mine the pipeline, only so many relationships that can realistically be built.

So a program, especially one like ours, needs to be very purposeful in their recruiting strategy. It's an obvious point that it doesn't necessarily matter where premium talent resides. But that also ignores the logistical and practical realities of the recruiting game.

Yes, Boise State pulls from California. But that's a talent rich state in the same time zone as the school. It's not exactly a stretch for them to hit that state hard.

But what Boise State doesn't do is spend a ton of time and resources recruiting Georgia. Sure they might land a kid or two from there every so often. But that's why outliers are a thing, like us getting a QB from Oregon.

I don't care about some vague concept like "identity". But it only makes sense to put the majority of our efforts into an area where it can reap the most rewards. That's most likely to be a 6-ish hour radius around campus.

And we really can't dismiss the family access aspect to recruiting. There's a real appeal for a family being able to see nearly all of their kids games in person.

Of course the family element is important. But if you can't be in front of players at the best HS programs in your region, you're not going to be in the conversation for the best kids from those schools. That's the chicken. The parents are the egg. You crack them, you got a player.

 

[money3189]

My argument is not "it doesn't matter if we don't recruit locally." And it is definitely not "we shouldn't recruit locally."

My argument is "Cuse's lack of success over the last 20 year is not correlated to where the players are recruited from."

There's a big difference.

I really don’t see the point. if you are not getting the better kids from your back yard and from other areas than you won’t be good. That was the case for Cuse the last couple decades.