If Pete Rose can't get into the HOF A-Hole shouldn't be allowed

[CaliCuse]

in the game at all.Banning him sends a big message out there to the other cheaters that have ruined the integrity of the record book. Selig said he knows what he is going to do but apparently does have what it takes to announce this action.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

in the game at all.Banning him sends a big message out there to the other cheaters that have ruined the integrity of the record book. Selig said he knows what he is going to do but apparently does have what it takes to announce this action.

Gaylord Perry is in.

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[jekelish]

Gaylord Perry is in.

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But didn't you know? Cheating in the game of baseball only started in the late 1990's.

 

[Marsh01]

What the writers did this year was an embarrassment and every one of them should be burned at the stake. Fing idiots


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[jekelish]

What the writers did this year was an embarrassment and every one of them should be burned at the stake. Fing idiots


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Agreed. And speaking of, here's a GREAT article by Jim Caple: http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/_/id/9508031/life-village-cooperstown

This is the best thing I've read on ESPN in awhile.

 

[SmilinBob]

Baseball lives in the past and the sport reminds me of a guy that thinks everything was perfect in the good old days and that things were never as bad as they are today. Willie Mays did "greenies" and many players throughout the sports history cheated and the only difference is that the writers didn't let the public know about it.

 

[Chip]

ARod is not getting into the HOF. Neither is McGwire, Sosa, Clemens or Bonds. Nor is Pete Rose.

Everyone should probably just get used to that and move on.

 

[jekelish]

ARod is not getting into the HOF. Neither is McGwire, Sosa, Clemens or Bonds. Nor is Pete Rose.

Everyone should probably just get used to that and move on.

It really depends on one thing: when the "changing of the guard" takes place with baseball writers. From all indications it's the "old guard" that wants to keep them out, while guys like Buster Olney and Jayson Stark and Jim Caple and so forth all say that they think they should be in. Once the newer generation of baseball writers becomes the old guard, I think we'll start to see guys like Bonds and Clemens get in.

 

[Knicks411]

It really depends on one thing: when the "changing of the guard" takes place with baseball writers. From all indications it's the "old guard" that wants to keep them out, while guys like Buster Olney and Jayson Stark and Jim Caple and so forth all say that they think they should be in. Once the newer generation of baseball writers becomes the old guard, I think we'll start to see guys like Bonds and Clemens get in.

Yeah I guess the question is, like you said, how long it takes. You only get 15 years before the writers can't vote you in and you move to the veterans committee. A-Rod might be in better shape since he won't even be hitting the ballot for a while.

A baseball HOF without A-Rod, Clemens, Bonds isn't a HOF at all to me.

 

[Marsh01]

ARod is not getting into the HOF. Neither is McGwire, Sosa, Clemens or Bonds. Nor is Pete Rose.

Everyone should probably just get used to that and move on.

If people think that steroids havent been around since the late 70's then you are daydreaming.

 

[iommi]

What the writers did this year was an embarrassment and every one of them should be burned at the stake. Fing idiots


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Who should've gotten in? I assume that's what you're referring to?

 

[Knicks411]

Who should've gotten in? I assume that's what you're referring to?

Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Raines, Bonds, Clemens.

 

[SmilinBob]

Nolan Ryan...nobody throws a ball 100 mph at 45+ years old. Clemens often mentioned how Ryan helped him "develop" as a pitcher.

 

[iommi]

Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Raines, Bonds, Clemens.

Strickly judging performance, Bonds, Clemens and Piazza should've gotten in. But if you factor in PED's that's a different argument. Bagwell has beenn linked to PEDs too. There is no evidence that Piazza juiced but it's been long-rumored. Looking at performanc, I would say that Biggio is borderline Hall but not a first ballot guy and Raines should not get in at all. Great player but not Hall material.

Again, Bonds, Clemens and Piazza are first ballot guys if not for PEDs. Do you guys think guys should get in regardless of PED use?

 

[Knicks411]

Obviously it's all just a personal thing, I guess. The evidence against Bonds and Clemens is a lot stronger than Piazza and Bagwell (because there is pretty much none against them. Of course, Bonds and Clemens have better HOF cases than Pizza and Bagwell). But I would vote for all 4.

But Biggio was an incredible player. I don't buy into the first ballot thing at all. If you're a hall of famer, you're a hall of famer. Raines is better than a hell of a lot of guys who are in the HOF.

 

[SmilinBob]

Here's an example I like to use when it comes to players and the Hall when it comes to steroids. Will Clark and Raffy Palmeiro. They were teammates at Miss ST and Clark got worse as he aged in the normal process of a baseball player while Raffy took off. It's difficult to tell who really used but for the guys that improved...and some dramatically after 30, there are tell tails to look at.

 

[iommi]

Obviously it's all just a personal thing, I guess. The evidence against Bonds and Clemens is a lot stronger than Piazza and Bagwell (because there is pretty much none against them. Of course, Bonds and Clemens have better HOF cases than Pizza and Bagwell). But I would vote for all 4.

But Biggio was an incredible player. I don't buy into the first ballot thing at all. If you're a hall of famer, you're a hall of famer. Raines is better than a hell of a lot of guys who are in the HOF.

Name some outfielders in the HOF who Raines is better than. I think Raines was great just not HOF material. His stats don't measure up and those stats were compiled in a very long (23 years) career.

Piazza is arguably the greatest hitting catcher ever (he's no worse than 2nd behind Bench)...terrible defensive player. In his autobiography he admits to taking all sorts of supplements but denies taking PEDs. I find it hard to believe he'd put all sorts of things in his body but not take 'roids.

 

[Knicks411]

Piazza is arguably the greatest hitting catcher ever (he's no worse than 2nd behind Bench)...terrible defensive player. In his autobiography he admits to taking all sorts of supplements but denies taking PEDs. I find it hard to believe he'd put all sorts of things in his body but not take 'roids.

It's not even close, Piazza is a clearly better hitter than Bench. (And probably just as clearly not as good of a player as Bench, don't get me wrong). He was terrible at throwing runners out, I don't think he was as bad at the other stuff, but definitely not a great or even good defensive catcher.

If you're asking me if I think Piazza used PEDs, I would say he probably did. But I would still vote for him.

Name some outfielders in the HOF who Raines is better than. I think Raines was great just not HOF material. His stats don't measure up and those stats were compiled in a very long (23 years) career.

Let's just look at guys who were voted in by the writers, cause the veterans list is a bit of a joke.

I would vote Raines over these guys: Jim Rice, Ralph Kiner, Lou Brock, maybe Harry Heilman (I'm blocked from baseball reference, so I can't do as much research as i'd like), maybe Willie Keeler, he played a million years ago, who knows.

If you look at the vet committee guys, he blows a ton of them away.

Fangraphs WAR has Raines as the 31th best OF of all time. 5 or 6 of those guys aren't in or aren't eligible, so he's something like a top 25 OF, if you like WAR. (Which you probably don't, since you don't have him in).

Raines would be 6th on the list of guys I gave.

 

[iommi]

It's not even close, Piazza is a clearly better hitter than Bench. (And probably just as clearly not as good of a player as Bench, don't get me wrong). He was terrible at throwing runners out, I don't think he was as bad at the other stuff, but definitely not a great or even good defensive catcher.

If you're asking me if I think Piazza used PEDs, I would say he probably did. But I would still vote for him.



Let's just look at guys who were voted in by the writers, cause the veterans list is a bit of a joke.

I would vote Raines over these guys: Jim Rice, Ralph Kiner, Lou Brock, maybe Harry Heilman (I'm blocked from baseball reference, so I can't do as much research as i'd like), maybe Willie Keeler, he played a million years ago, who knows.

If you look at the vet committee guys, he blows a ton of them away.

Fangraphs WAR has Raines as the 31th best OF of all time. 5 or 6 of those guys aren't in or aren't eligible, so he's something like a top 25 OF, if you like WAR. (Which you probably don't, since you don't have him in).

Raines would be 6th on the list of guys I gave.

Wow, Raines: better than Kiner? Better than Rice? I'd vote for one of Raines' ex-teammates, Andre Dawson, before him, but obviously it's subjective. And yes, the veterans committee is a joke.

 

[Knicks411]

Raines problem is that he wasn't a home run hitter, he's never going to stack up to a guy like Kiner or Rice in the power categories. But he had a 5 year run where he was one of the very best players in baseball. (From 83-87, he was 4th in WAR, pretty far behind Wade Boggs, but right there with Cal and Rickey.) Rice's best 5 year run was probably 77-81, he was 9th in WAR over that time (just behind Andre Dawson, since you mentioned him). Which is really good, don't get me wrong. Kiner had such a short career, though he was a great hitter for it.

But I get that Raines seems to be kind of a fringe candidate.

 

[iommi]

If Raines should get in, then Don Mattingly should (and Mattingly's my favorite player of all time but not a HOFer IMO). Mattingly was the best player in baseball from 1984-1989, until his bad troubles.

 

[Marsh01]

Again, Bonds, Clemens and Piazza are first ballot guys if not for PEDs. Do you guys think guys should get in regardless of PED use?

Yes. Cant say who was or was not doing it and who just didnt get caught. Let everyone in. MLB had little problem with the popularity boom of baseball when Sosa and McGwire were jacking dingers every night.

 

[Knicks411]

If Raines should get in, then Don Mattingly should (and Mattingly's my favorite player of all time but not a HOFer IMO). Mattingly was the best player in baseball from 1984-1989, until his bad troubles.

For whatever it's worth, from 84-89, fangraphs WAR has Mattingly 6th in the majors (Raines was 4th). I messed around, pretty much no matter what 4/5 year period you pick in that era, he doesn't move ahead of 4th or so. (Wade Boggs was awesome, btw)

Mattingly was definitely awesome in that period, but he doesn't have much else around it

Y

es. Cant say who was or was not doing it and who just didnt get caught. Let everyone in. MLB had little problem with the popularity boom of baseball when Sosa and McGwire were jacking dingers every night.

I agree, and this is why I find it funny the Yankees want to get out of the A-rod contract. (I get why they do, it's so much money, don't get me wrong). But if he was hitting 45 HR a year and juicing, they'd be fine with it