Inside Lacrosse Recruit Rankings 2018-19 | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Inside Lacrosse Recruit Rankings 2018-19

DoctahLexus said:
Come on now this guy seems to just find it kind of odd someone could drop so far so quickly while still making all Long Island, which is pretty odd. No need for the remark on his lack of ability to provide "analysis" based on that alone.
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And he gave no possible explanation other than IL lost his name somewhere. It's a trend I've noticed.
 
ohmilax34 said:
And he gave no possible explanation other than IL lost his name somewhere. It's a trend I've noticed.
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Your explanation leads to a bit of a dichotomy.
Inside Lacrosse gets out and sees more of Verch this Spring and decides he isn't very good, by your theory. Well, this makes last fall's IL's Rising Senior ranking in the 60's for Verch look poorly researched and bogus.
Here, I am looking at this fall's rising senior listing, what am I to think?
 
2018 Recruiting Issue: Top 20 Incoming Men's Classes

15. Syracuse
A lot like the Orange’s current sophomore class, this group is loaded at the midfield. That starts with Under Armour All-Americans Peter Fiorini (Baldwinsville, N.Y.) and Matt Magnan (Fox Lane, N.Y.; Prime Time — pictured), and includes Andrew and Justin Kim (Don Bosco Prep, N.J.) and late addition Logan Dieball (Archbishop Moeller, Ohio). Griffin Cook (Jamesville-DeWitt, N.Y.) is an attackman from the Upstate tradition, while Mikey Berkman (West Orange, Fla.) comes in off of a record-setting career.

5ba252c148e9f.jpg
 
OrangeXtreme said:
2018 Recruiting Issue: Top 20 Incoming Men's Classes

15. Syracuse
A lot like the Orange’s current sophomore class, this group is loaded at the midfield. That starts with Under Armour All-Americans Peter Fiorini (Baldwinsville, N.Y.) and Matt Magnan (Fox Lane, N.Y.; Prime Time — pictured), and includes Andrew and Justin Kim (Don Bosco Prep, N.J.) and late addition Logan Dieball (Archbishop Moeller, Ohio). Griffin Cook (Jamesville-DeWitt, N.Y.) is an attackman from the Upstate tradition, while Mikey Berkman (West Orange, Fla.) comes in off of a record-setting career.

5ba252c148e9f.jpg
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15 is way to low, this is at minimum a top 10 class. Bad job by IL.
 
I hope you are right, but I tend to look at this class and see a lot of question marks. Cook is the top player but have concerns about his size, Magnan had production problems after a big sophomore season, Berkman big numbers but competition is unknown, Kim twins are huge but stats don't stand out, Fiorini seems like a really good product but seems passive. That's just the high end players. There are only two defenseman so it looks lopsided (not counting Staats).

This class would look a lot better if they had hung on to Scanlan and Galinas - that is what the top classes do. Surprised Dieball got mentioned in the writeup, I didn't think his signing was considered that big of a deal. Unexpected but good to see.

I was a bit surprised to see them at 15, but I still can't help but feel wary about this class. Hoping they can compliment what turned out to be a very good rising sophomore class, but I really don't feel super confident about any of the incoming frosh. Feeling cautious about this group.
 
Powellfan said:
I hope you are right, but I tend to look at this class and see a lot of question marks. Cook is the top player but have concerns about his size, Magnan had production problems after a big sophomore season, Berkman big numbers but competition is unknown, Kim twins are huge but stats don't stand out, Fiorini seems like a really good product but seems passive. That's just the high end players. There are only two defenseman so it looks lopsided (not counting Staats).

This class would look a lot better if they had hung on to Scanlan and Galinas - that is what the top classes do. Surprised Dieball got mentioned in the writeup, I didn't think his signing was considered that big of a deal. Unexpected but good to see.

I was a bit surprised to see them at 15, but I still can't help but feel wary about this class. Hoping they can compliment what turned out to be a very good rising sophomore class, but I really don't feel super confident about any of the incoming frosh. Feeling cautious about this group.
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As always nothing that is printed about any of the classes matters once they hit the field; chemistry is so tough to build and is what makes teams special; not individuals (look at Virginia during the Bratton years), that said; Magnan is a stud hoss lacrosse player, Cook has bulked up and will take on anyone on the field to get to the cage or for a loose ball; I can't wait to see the team get after each other in the alumni weekend scrimmage.
 
Powellfan said:
I hope you are right, but I tend to look at this class and see a lot of question marks. Cook is the top player but have concerns about his size, Magnan had production problems after a big sophomore season, Berkman big numbers but competition is unknown, Kim twins are huge but stats don't stand out, Fiorini seems like a really good product but seems passive. That's just the high end players. There are only two defenseman so it looks lopsided (not counting Staats).

This class would look a lot better if they had hung on to Scanlan and Galinas - that is what the top classes do. Surprised Dieball got mentioned in the writeup, I didn't think his signing was considered that big of a deal. Unexpected but good to see.

I was a bit surprised to see them at 15, but I still can't help but feel wary about this class. Hoping they can compliment what turned out to be a very good rising sophomore class, but I really don't feel super confident about any of the incoming frosh. Feeling cautious about this group.
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Wonder if they are looking to make the Kim's shorties?
 
JeremyCuse said:
I believe that is the plan.
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Agree. I think SU has decided to find big athletic middies in every class regardless of stats, because they consider ssdms as important as any position on the field. Look at the decision to move Helmer and Murphy from LSM to ssdm. To me, they have finally awakened to the significance. A single ssdm who can be passed by ordinary attacks or middies can weaken a defense no matter the quality of the rest of the defense.
 
Powellfan said:
I hope you are right, but I tend to look at this class and see a lot of question marks. Cook is the top player but have concerns about his size, Magnan had production problems after a big sophomore season, Berkman big numbers but competition is unknown, Kim twins are huge but stats don't stand out, Fiorini seems like a really good product but seems passive. That's just the high end players. There are only two defenseman so it looks lopsided (not counting Staats).

This class would look a lot better if they had hung on to Scanlan and Galinas - that is what the top classes do. Surprised Dieball got mentioned in the writeup, I didn't think his signing was considered that big of a deal. Unexpected but good to see.

I was a bit surprised to see them at 15, but I still can't help but feel wary about this class. Hoping they can compliment what turned out to be a very good rising sophomore class, but I really don't feel super confident about any of the incoming frosh. Feeling cautious about this group.
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While on middies, IL forgot to mention middy Lawton who had 62 goals/21 assists last year. New Providence did not play the stronger NJ teams but still...... may take time to adjust to higher comp but skillset is there as he moves fairly well and plays with both hands
 
I think Inside Lacrosse usually struggles with the team rankings. It's hard to see the 2 teams: Georgetown or Penn, right in front of Syracuse being in front of Syracuse. With 3 under armour AAs, I think Syracuse is probably in the 2nd half of the top 10.
If you look at IL's own recruit list Syracuse has 1 5 star in Cook, and 6 4stars.
 
sholokov2 said:
Agree. I think SU has decided to find big athletic middies in every class regardless of stats, because they consider ssdms as important as any position on the field. Look at the decision to move Helmer and Murphy from LSM to ssdm. To me, they have finally awakened to the significance. A single ssdm who can be passed by ordinary attacks or middies can weaken a defense no matter the quality of the rest of the defense.
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That certainly makes me happy to hear. In an article, they mentioned Dieball being recruited to play defense, and it sounds like he is quite large as well (6'5 in the article). I feel many posters over the years (including me) have been saying the main weakness of the defense has been the shortsticks, and their main hindrance has been their slight frames. My main memory of most shorsticks since Ianzito has been them getting bowled over by bigger/stronger/faster players.

When I think of teams with good shortys I think of Notre Dame, who always seems to trot out players who are 6'3 and run like gazelles. It's nice to see the coaching staff realize this has been a problem and change direction. Of course just because you are big and strong does not equal that you will be a good defender. It's easy for us to say, "just get some great athletes and make them play D!", but that is what makes them unique, there aren't a lot out there. You have to be fast, you have to have good footwork, you need to be able to communicate, etc. Regardless, it sounds like they are on the right track - you cant teach size.
 
Powellfan said:
That certainly makes me happy to hear. In an article, they mentioned Dieball being recruited to play defense, and it sounds like he is quite large as well (6'5 in the article). I feel many posters over the years (including me) have been saying the main weakness of the defense has been the shortsticks, and their main hindrance has been their slight frames. My main memory of most shorsticks since Ianzito has been them getting bowled over by bigger/stronger/faster players.

When I think of teams with good shortys I think of Notre Dame, who always seems to trot out players who are 6'3 and run like gazelles. It's nice to see the coaching staff realize this has been a problem and change direction. Of course just because you are big and strong does not equal that you will be a good defender. It's easy for us to say, "just get some great athletes and make them play D!", but that is what makes them unique, there aren't a lot out there. You have to be fast, you have to have good footwork, you need to be able to communicate, etc. Regardless, it sounds like they are on the right track - you cant teach size.
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With the addition of a shot clock, actual two way middies will be at an even greater premium. Big fast athletes who can play on both ends will be massively important.
 
Some of the highlights of those Kim twins make them seem like ideal candidates for 2 way middies. Excellent long range shooting and shots on the run. At their size you can at least guarantee they won't be "bowled over" too easily and may do some of the bowling over themselves if they get a small offensive middie stuck on defense.
 
Zack80 said:
Your explanation leads to a bit of a dichotomy.
Inside Lacrosse gets out and sees more of Verch this Spring and decides he isn't very good, by your theory. Well, this makes last fall's IL's Rising Senior ranking in the 60's for Verch look poorly researched and bogus.
Here, I am looking at this fall's rising senior listing, what am I to think?
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You can think whatever you want. Here is what i would think:

*Players develop at different rates, this causes changes in the rankings.
*IL and Xanders get to see more and more players the older the players get so the rankings should get more accurate as the players get older. This causes a changing in the rankings.
*Xanders, who is back at IL for this recruiting issue, had Verch at #99 in his top 100 rising seniors a year ago, and Xanders is probably the main voice in the IL room when deciding rankings. So, Xanders didn't have Verch as high as IL in the first place.
*If this were an SU recruit, I would be interested in seeing film of the player, to see how he looks and maybe compare him with a couple other players I've seen from the class.
*If this is a "miss" by IL, meaning their ranking of #60 last year was way off, it wasn't their first, won't be their last, but maybe in the big picture they got a lot right.
 
ohmilax34 said:
You can think whatever you want. Here is what i would think:

*Players develop at different rates, this causes changes in the rankings.
*IL and Xanders get to see more and more players the older the players get so the rankings should get more accurate as the players get older. This causes a changing in the rankings.
*Xanders, who is back at IL for this recruiting issue, had Verch at #99 in his top 100 rising seniors a year ago, and Xanders is probably the main voice in the IL room when deciding rankings. So, Xanders didn't have Verch as high as IL in the first place.
*If this were an SU recruit, I would be interested in seeing film of the player, to see how he looks and maybe compare him with a couple other players I've seen from the class.
*If this is a "miss" by IL, meaning their ranking of #60 last year was way off, it wasn't their first, won't be their last, but maybe in the big picture they got a lot right.
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You are right, he does have Verch at #99 on his full top 100 list, on the Terp recruit listing for 2018, he has Verch at #59. The lists are supposed to be correlated, but I guess in Verch's case they were not. What can I say, I was mislead by another error by Xanders. Still an awful big drop for a player, who made the all Long Island team this Spring.

I am not as optimistic as you about IL or Ty Xanders getting a lot right. Certainly, they can pad their stats with a lot of consensus top recruits. It also sort of depends what you consider getting it right. I think Xanders and IL have preferences, and also a bit of a geographic agenda, which tends to lead them to errors.

My opinion would be that there are a lot of players to consider, and Verch isn't high on Xanders' list and even though Verch had a pretty good Spring on Long Island, he got lost in the shuffle. (He still isn't even on UMd's list on IL for the 2018 class.)
 
I expect the Kim twins to go the same way the Brattons did at UVA. One on O ( Justin) and one on D (Andrew). Develope them both separately and utilize that raw athleticism.

I'm fine with the 15 ranking. To me this is a needs class for us not a rankings class. We need SSDMS and we need attackman. Rarely are good SSDMS going to be 5 or 4 stars. just like in football sometimes you have a good young roster and only need 15 recruits instead of 20-25. Your ranking suffers but your team doesn't. We already have a great young team we didn't need to bring in tons of offensive middies (who usually rank higher than SSDMS) they all wouldn't touch the field. That 2020 class is the one you can look to for a better ranking. For now we need to fill needs not grab the ones with the most stars according to the two guys insidelacrosse had ranking them.
 
Coach Desko and crew recruit the kids they want and don't likely consult with Mr. Xanders. If you don't play in front of him, you don't make "the list".

Number of Cuse class of 2024 played together this summer on Gators team and looks good. Gators Lacrosse (@Gatorslax1) | Twitter. Too bad about Graham Blake re-class/de-commit. Kid is a stud
 
I suggested on one of these forum headlines that we might benefit from a study of the correlation between recruit rating averages and team and individual performance(R). I remember seeing one about two years ago asserting a definitive correlation between the variables. Several years sampled. Since I did not see the study methods and results, I remain skeptical, but less so than I used to be.
 
sholokov2 said:
I suggested on one of these forum headlines that we might benefit from a study of the correlation between recruit rating averages and team and individual performance(R). I remember seeing one about two years ago asserting a definitive correlation between the variables. Several years sampled. Since I did not see the study methods and results, I remain skeptical, but less so than I used to be.
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ApparentTalent2.png

Coaching vs. "Apparent Quality"

https://www.foxsports.com/college-f...-gary-derrick-brown-demetris-robertson-020116
 
That R-squared value of .258 is not real high. It essential implies that 25.8% of the variance in team performance is given by recruiting, so recruiting is a factor but it can be overcome by other factors.

From the foxsports article:
"Today, however, evaluators have the benefit of attending national and regional combines throughout players’ high-school careers; high-definition video of their games; and, well, the Internet. As such, their hit rates are pretty darn good. "

I don't know that we have reached that level with lacrosse. It does often seem that guys who don't make it to many (or any) IL events don't get ranked as high, which tends to lead to a number of under-the-radar recruits in lacrosse.
 
Zack80 said:
That R-squared value of .258 is not real high. It essential implies that 25.8% of the variance in team performance is given by recruiting, so recruiting is a factor but it can be overcome by other factors.

From the foxsports article:
"Today, however, evaluators have the benefit of attending national and regional combines throughout players’ high-school careers; high-definition video of their games; and, well, the Internet. As such, their hit rates are pretty darn good. "

I don't know that we have reached that level with lacrosse. It does often seem that guys who don't make it to many (or any) IL events don't get ranked as high, which tends to lead to a number of under-the-radar recruits in lacrosse.
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Zack - Given the number of variables involved in evaluating players, and the complexity of team performance, .25 R-squared is not chopped liver. To account for a quarter of all that is nearly dramatic.
 
Just as important is deployment. Skill is in assembling a team of players with various skillsets and strengths and then putting them together to best complement each other within a team framework.

Has anyone seen Joe Girard play hoops? Much hoopla so surprised he is only 3 star prospect. Was McNamara a highly prized recruit at the time ?
 
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