Interesting stat re University of Washington...

[bpo57]

Hops philosophy always has been to play more players. He feels that kids who don't expect to play in a given season do not work hard to improve.

Most NCAA coaches do it that way and think that way. Doesn't make JB wrong as there is obviously more than one way to get it done.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I'm not making the comparison to this year. Reasons for that are obvious. JB never in his entire history has used his bench like Hopkins has. Not saying it's right or wrong. Just pointing out the obvious shift in philosophy.

You mean except in '11-'12 when JB went 10 deep.

 

[bpo57]

You mean except in '11-'12 when JB went 10 deep.

That is true. He did go ten deep that year. So never was the wrong word to use. How about rarely ever?

 

[Consigliere]

That is true. He did go ten deep that year. So never was the wrong word to use. How about rarely ever?

Why would you WANT to go 10 deep? 3 Gs, 3 Fs and 2 Cs is an ideal rotation IMO. Data says that is exactly the rotation JB employs. Go back over the last 20 years and look at the numbers. Tough to find a season where a minimum of eight payers did not average 8 minutes a game (using 4 minutes per half as a meaningful appearance) barring serious injury. And the 8 man ideal rotation can easily become 7 if one of the forwards can swing to center. I'd rather see criticism that Carmelo looks tired than that we lost a game because John Wallace was on the bench getting a breather.

 

[bpo57]

Why would you WANT to go 10 deep? 3 Gs, 3 Fs and 2 Cs is an ideal rotation IMO. Data says that is exactly the rotation JB employs. Go back over the last 20 years and look at the numbers. Tough to find a season where a minimum of eight payers did not average 8 minutes a game (using 4 minutes per half as a meaningful appearance) barring serious injury. And the 8 man ideal rotation can easily become 7 if one of the forwards can swing to center. I'd rather see criticism that Carmelo looks tired than that we lost a game because John Wallace was on the bench getting a breather.

Who advocated for going ten deep? I didn't criticize JB. I just pointed out the different philosophy between the two.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

That is true. He did go ten deep that year. So never was the wrong word to use. How about rarely ever?

I can agree with that. But hard to use it as a predictor of what will happen next year because JB has shown to change his philosophy based on his assessment of his players and his perceived gap of their abilities.

 

[Day2]

Hops philosophy always has been to play more players. He feels that kids who don't expect to play in a given season do not work hard to improve.

My guess is JB doesn’t want guys like that on his team and part of not playing them early in their careers is a test.

 

[dasher]

My guess is JB doesn’t want guys like that on his team and part of not playing them early in their careers is a test.

It's not a test. Jb doesn't think they are ready early. He wants to win.

 

[Day2]

It's not a test. Jb doesn't think they are ready early. He wants to win.

I know that’s the primary reason. I’m suggesting the test is secondary (at best).

 

[Brooky03]

Oh c'mon get real. When in his history has he distributed PT like Hopkins has done this year? Very, very rarely if ever.

So I checked the stats ESPN has going back to the 01-02 season. JB has played 8 guys 12+ minutes essentially every season; and I'm only counting guys who played in most of the games or would have played in most if not for injury or suspension. Feel free to check the stats yourself and tell me I'm wrong. In the seasons he fell short of that, he'd have an extra 2 or 3 guys playing in a significant number of games in the 8-11 minute range. 15-16 and this season are the two exceptions, and we know the reasons for the short benches in both cases.

Carlos Johnson and Michael Carter III have played in only slightly more than half of Washington's games this season at 8mpg. They're not rotational players.

 

[bpo57]

So I checked the stats ESPN has going back to the 01-02 season. JB has played 8 guys 12+ minutes essentially every season; and I'm only counting guys who played in most of the games or would have played in most if not for injury or suspension. Feel free to check the stats yourself and tell me I'm wrong. In the seasons he fell short of that, he'd have an extra 2 or 3 guys playing in a significant number of games in the 8-11 minute range. 15-16 and this season are the two exceptions, and we know the reasons for the short benches in both cases.

Carlos Johnson and Michael Carter III have played in only slightly more than half of Washington's games this season at 8mpg. They're not rotational players.

Fair point. I went over them and the minutes are more evenly distributed than I would have thought. There were certainly some years where that wasn't the case but they're in the minority. One distinction I would make though is that the top guys in JB's rotation generally often lead the country in minutes. In that sense SU is on one end of the spectrum compared to most programs. Not saying that's necessarily good or bad.

 

[Day2]

Fair point. I went over them and the minutes are more evenly distributed than I would have thought. There were certainly some years where that wasn't the case but they're in the minority. One distinction I would make though is that the top guys in JB's rotation generally often lead the country in minutes. In that sense SU is on one end of the spectrum compared to most programs. Not saying that's necessarily good or bad.

One or two, sure, but usually not three. This season is just as much of an outlier as 09-10.

 

[bpo57]

One or two, sure, but usually not three. This season is just as much of an outlier as 09-10.

I would agree. Didn't spell it out but I meant one or two.

 

[Scooch]

The original post in this thread was interesting. The next 30 have largely been awful, aside from the few that were actually on topic.

It seems clear that Hop believes in playing more players and mixing up his defenses.

 

[NineOneSeven]

The original post in this thread was interesting. The next 30 have largely been awful, aside from the few that were actually on topic.

It seems clear that Hop believes in playing more players and mixing up his defenses.

This.

Just a simple comment acknowledging something. People are weird.

 

[Sherman20]

A real test for Jb next year. With a front court of Bazley and OB, and we know how he hates to take stars off the floor, where do Marek and Moyer get minutes? He can run Carey, Howard and Hughes at the guard spots but how does Washington and Buddy (gulp) get any run at all?

Good questions. Buddy redshirts. I believe that will happen. JB has intimated as much. People saying we need a shooter like him on the floor are overlooking a sophomore year Brissett, a senior year Frank, Hughes, Carey and even Bazley. All are good outside shooters. I think Washington will be rehabbing and may take a medical redshirt. He’s going to be a key piece as a junior and senior and I hope he sees that. Even with Bazley and Brissett, we’ll still play another forward 20 minutes a game. But you’re right, someone could be the odd man out there. I hope Moyer and Marek have the patience to see that they’ll both be key pieces and starters as juniors and seniors. But who knows? People have talked about OB going pro or Marek going back to Europe. I hope neither of those things happens. We need to build depth for the future. Plus we all have seen how injuries happen and can decimate a team. I love our big man rotation for next year with PC and a healthy Sidibe.

 

[OrangeDW]

Why would you WANT to go 10 deep? 3 Gs, 3 Fs and 2 Cs is an ideal rotation IMO. Data says that is exactly the rotation JB employs. Go back over the last 20 years and look at the numbers. Tough to find a season where a minimum of eight payers did not average 8 minutes a game (using 4 minutes per half as a meaningful appearance) barring serious injury. And the 8 man ideal rotation can easily become 7 if one of the forwards can swing to center. I'd rather see criticism that Carmelo looks tired than that we lost a game because John Wallace was on the bench getting a breather.

Agreed. 8 is ideal. We had a perfect rotation of 8 players that fit together like a glove in the 2003 tournament.

 

[CusefanATL]

Very simple point. Hopkins has gone 8-10 deep with his roster. I've been following JB for his entire career and he's never done that. Not saying Hopkins is right and JB is wrong. And I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS YEAR. Just pointing out a sharp philosophical departure.

10/11
2011-12 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

11/12
2011-12 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

We def went 8/9 deep in 2012-2013
2012-13 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Went 8+ deep in 13/14
2013-14 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

 

[CusefanATL]

I also think its time to move on from Hop. We dont need play by play of Washington. He moved on, is not coming back. I have moved on, JB has moved on, most of cuse has moved on.

I wish him tons of success but never at the expense of Syracuse. I hope we play them and I hope we kill them everytime.

 

[br801]

Who advocated for going ten deep? I didn't criticize JB. I just pointed out the different philosophy between the two.

Since this is Hop's first team, I'm not sure we can conclude anything about his philosophy of distributing minutes.

 

[br801]

I


Then what did you mean with the John Wooden crack?

I think he was using hyperbole to illustrate a valid point about how Hop's stock in many eyes has risen and fallen and risen through the years.

 

[bpo57]

I think he was using hyperbole to illustrate a valid point about how Hop's stock in many eyes has risen and fallen and risen through the years.

Just funny how it came on the heels of my post when I had no intent of being critical of JB and was not suggesting Hop was a latter day combo of John Wooden, Bobby Knight and Dean Smith..

 

[bpo57]

10/11
2011-12 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

11/12
2011-12 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

We def went 8/9 deep in 2012-2013
2012-13 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Went 8+ deep in 13/14
2013-14 Syracuse Orange Roster and Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

Yeah we went over this above. Some years he went deep, some years he didn't. Not a completely apt comparison to Hopkins' situation given that JB had Mickey D All-Americans coming off the bench in some of those years.

 

[br801]

Just funny how it came on the heels of my post when I had no intent of being critical of JB and was not suggesting Hop was a latter day combo of John Wooden, Bobby Knight and Dean Smith..

Nah, dasher has been consistent on these issues over the years. Don't be so sensitive.

 

[bpo57]

Nah, dasher has been consistent on these issues over the years. Don't be so sensitive.

Not being sensitive at all. Those that are overly sensitive here are often the JB defenders that immediately move into a defensive crouch at the slightest hint of criticism.