Is Jim becoming our Mack Brown?

[Czar]

Someone so good who finally delivered us to the promise land but now has too much good will and cachet that he's nigh unfireable, even as rot has started to set in to the team?

 

[OrangePA]

Someone so good who finally delivered us to the promise land but now has too much good will and cachet that he's nigh unfireable, even as rot has started to set in to the team?

I think the idea of firing Boeheim simply because his team has struggled in the early part of the season is silly.

He is playing a number of guys who are new to his system - including numerous frosh and two transfers. He also is relying upon a PG - Howard - who is still learning how to play at this level.

There are a lot of interchangeable parts to this team - a lot of tinkering needs to be done.

Boeheim is coming off a Final Four season.

I just don't understand the talk of dismissing him or challenging his ability to coach.

Given his experience I am confident that he will do what needs to be done to move the team ahead.

 

[Fly Rodder]

... because his team has struggled in the early part of the season is silly.

They have not looked good since they entered the ACC. The final four run as a bubble team masked a lot of warts.

 

[Eric15]

I think the idea of firing Boeheim simply because his team has struggled in the early part of the season is silly.

He is playing a number of guys who are new to his system - including numerous frosh and two transfers. He also is relying upon a PG - Howard - who is still learning how to play at this level.

There are a lot of interchangeable parts to this team - a lot of tinkering needs to be done.

Boeheim is coming off a Final Four season.

I just don't understand the talk of dismissing him or challenging his ability to coach.

Given his experience I am confident that he will do what needs to be done to move the team ahead.

We went to the Final Four last year and nobody will ever be able to take that away from us, but it's just not an objective measure of our program's strength in any way, shape or form. 8 great minutes of basketball against Virginia don't offset a 14 loss season.

Two different teams beat us three times last season. That's not supposed to happen to a JB-coached team.

We can't have it both ways. We can't make fun of UConn for their "weak" titles and say they're a program in decline, while simultaneously hanging our hat on a Final Four that we achieved as a 10 seed.

 

[OrangePA]

They have not looked good since they entered the ACC. The final four run as a bubble team masked a lot of warts.

I'll take the warts.

He coached well last year - in a very disruptive environment.

 

[OttoMets]

I think the idea of firing Boeheim simply because his team has struggled in the early part of the season is silly.

He is playing a number of guys who are new to his system - including numerous frosh and two transfers. He also is relying upon a PG - Howard - who is still learning how to play at this level.

There are a lot of interchangeable parts to this team - a lot of tinkering needs to be done.

Boeheim is coming off a Final Four season.

I just don't understand the talk of dismissing him or challenging his ability to coach.

Given his experience I am confident that he will do what needs to be done to move the team ahead.

That's a positive way of framing it, and I wouldn't fault any fan for that.

From a different angle, he's coming off a (13? 14?) loss season in which we suffered from offensive ineptitude, lost to a number of teams with clearly inferior talent, and seemed to watch the gap between us and what we consider our elite peer programs widen.

Talk of dismissing Boeheim is ludicrous. Challenging his ability to coach? Well, it'd be equally silly to claim his best years aren't behind him. Like a lot of 72-year-olds, he's obviously not as good at his job as he was at 60 or 65, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[RF2044]

That's a positive way of framing it, and I wouldn't fault any fan for that.

From a different angle, he's coming off a (13? 14?) loss season in which we suffered from offensive ineptitude, lost to a number of teams with clearly inferior talent, and seemed to watch the gap between us and what we consider our elite peer programs widen.

Talk of dismissing Boeheim is ludicrous. Challenging his ability to coach? Well, it'd be equally silly to claim his best years aren't behind him. Like a lot of 72-year-olds, he's obviously not as good at his job as he was at 60 or 65, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I think that's right. People forget about what a great game coach he can be when things go bad, like they have this season. The game has NOT passed him by.

But I agree 100% that he's slipped some, due to age. He just doesn't have the capacity to engage as much as he did when he was 10 or even 5 years younger. He's an old man now, and he's also less tolerant and more verbose [and he was not very tolerant or taciturn to begin with].

We've had some years that haven't been as good as others [NIT years, etc.]. But we've never seen Boeheim fail, and I fear that's what he's in danger of doing this year.

And no question, things have been slipping a bit in recent years, in terms of the overall ability to compete and sustain a high level of play over the full course of a season, the sanctions, the scholarship reductions, recruiting, missing out on several key players, etc.

When you add it all up, it is probably time for a much needed change and an infusion of new energy.

 

[NineOneSeven]

It happens.

 

[OttoMets]

I think that's right. People forget about what a great game coach he can be when things go bad, like they have this season. The game has NOT passed him by.

But I agree 100% that he's slipped some, due to age. He just doesn't have the capacity to engage as much as he did when he was 10 or even 5 years younger. He's an old man now, and he's also less tolerant and more verbose [and he was not very tolerant or taciturn to begin with].

We've had some years that haven't been as good as others [NIT years, etc.]. But we've never seen Boeheim fail, and I fear that's what he's in danger of doing this year.

And no question, things have been slipping a bit in recent years, in terms of the overall ability to compete and sustain a high level of play over the full course of a season, the sanctions, the scholarship reductions, recruiting, missing out on several key players, etc.

When you add it all up, it is probably time for a much needed change and an infusion of new energy.

I fear he recognizes all of this, too. It shows on his face and body language and in his tone. I'm sometimes quick to criticize his few shortcomings, but right now I feel sad for him. He's doing the best he can and he's very frustrated to see that it might not end on a high note.

 

[Czar]

Boeheim is coming off a Final Four season.

Mack Brown was coming off a National Title appearance before the wheels began to visibly come off.

 

[OrangePA]

Mack Brown was coming off a National Title appearance before the wheels began to visibly come off.

Yeah, Mack Brown went 9-4 and 8-5 in his last two seasons.

And look what happened to Texas after they fired him - 6-7, 5-7 and 5-7.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Someone so good who finally delivered us to the promise land but now has too much good will and cachet that he's nigh unfireable, even as rot has started to set in to the team?

Interested you used Mack Brown as a comparison. How has Texas football done since he left? Interested to hear your assessment.

 

[OrangePA]

That's a positive way of framing it, and I wouldn't fault any fan for that.

From a different angle, he's coming off a (13? 14?) loss season in which we suffered from offensive ineptitude, lost to a number of teams with clearly inferior talent, and seemed to watch the gap between us and what we consider our elite peer programs widen.

Talk of dismissing Boeheim is ludicrous. Challenging his ability to coach? Well, it'd be equally silly to claim his best years aren't behind him. Like a lot of 72-year-olds, he's obviously not as good at his job as he was at 60 or 65, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Would I like to see him move on and give Mike Hopkins a chance to run the program?

Yes, I would.

But, in the meantime, it is still early and you have to give Jim a chance to right this ship.

It may take more effort from him than in the recent past or it may take a different approach. And he may not be up to it.

But he deserves a full and fair opportunity to fix this team.

 

[djcon57]

I keep getting the Bobby Bowden vibe

 

[Millhouse]

I think the idea of firing Boeheim simply because his team has struggled in the early part of the season is silly.

He is playing a number of guys who are new to his system - including numerous frosh and two transfers. He also is relying upon a PG - Howard - who is still learning how to play at this level.

There are a lot of interchangeable parts to this team - a lot of tinkering needs to be done.

Boeheim is coming off a Final Four season.

I just don't understand the talk of dismissing him or challenging his ability to coach.

Given his experience I am confident that he will do what needs to be done to move the team ahead.

I'm not confident that he will move the team ahead but I never want them to dismiss him.

We are going to have 3 13+ loss seasons in a row (i think that's a safe bet this year)

That hasn't happened since 1962. Now most of that time, Boeheim has been the coach and is the reason why it's been so long since that's happened.

But he's definitely slipping. Before 2006-07 he never had three 10 loss seasons in a row.

i think we know how this ends but we can't jump the gun because he's been so great

 

[djcon57]

But, in the meantime, it is still early and you have to give Jim a chance to right this ship.

Unfortunately, It's not that early.

We will have to basically go Top 3 in ACC to make the tourney or win the post season ACC.

 

[Briancuse]

Unfortunately, It's not that early.

We will have to basically go Top 3 in ACC to make the tourney or win the post season ACC.

We might have to win the acc tourney at this point, we have five losses, two of which bad losses, unless we go 12-6 in the conference, we will be on the bubble, with an awful ooc resume.

 

[Ward]

I keep getting the Bobby Bowden vibe

I'm seeing Bowden and a lot of Gary Williams and Lute Olsen.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Interested you used Mack Brown as a comparison. How has Texas football done since he left? Interested to hear your assessment.

Which is what is most scary to me. Irrelevance or a decade of struggle under a parader of replacement coaches. JAB built the program (although, at the same time, college basketball has evolved to an almost completely different beast). Just because a program is a name program doesn't mean that it is immune to being made inconsequential. Changing coaches, especially a legend like JAB is never going to be easy. It took Indiana a few years to be relevant again after transitioning from Bobby Knight. Louisville bounced right back with a big name coach after the last few years of Denny Crum. Look at Michigan after Steve Fisher. If JAB retired in 2004, does the Melo Center get built?

 

[cuseinseattle]

Which is what is most scary to me. Irrelevance or a decade of struggle under a parader of replacement coaches. JAB built the program (although, at the same time, college basketball has evolved to an almost completely different beast). Just because a program is a name program doesn't mean that it is immune to being made inconsequential. Changing coaches, especially a legend like JAB is never going to be easy. It took Indiana a few years to be relevant again after transitioning from Bobby Knight. Louisville bounced right back with a big name coach after the last few years of Denny Crum. Look at Michigan after Steve Fisher. If JAB retired in 2004, does the Melo Center get built?

No the Melo Center doesn't get built. I also think as the message board has pretty well illustrated we don't have fan base in basketball that is used to losing and having struggles. I think a decade from now we will look back on the last 3 seasons and pray for something similar. I really want Hopkins to be successful but I'm not sure how possible that will be. I think we are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Czar]

Interested you used Mack Brown as a comparison. How has Texas football done since he left? Interested to hear your assessment.

After he left the rot became very visible. While the records in Mack's last few years were fine, each season you noticed less and less underclassmen stepping up or playing at an acceptable level for Texas. Charlie Strong inherited a bare cupboard where he had to rebuild the talent again after it was all gone. Missing at QB repeatedly didn't help when Strong took over. Strong recruited a good guy in Buechele but it was too little too late. Mack became real complacent with recruiting towards the end, almost filling his class before their senior seasons started and thus missing out on late bloomers and also taking way too many guys who had already plateaued. He also never adapted to the new Big 12 and his offense was incredibly archaic by the time he left. Ultimately I think Strong left Herman a much much stronger foundation than what Strong found after Mack left.

 

[MSOrange]

Which is what is most scary to me. Irrelevance or a decade of struggle under a parader of replacement coaches. JAB built the program (although, at the same time, college basketball has evolved to an almost completely different beast). Just because a program is a name program doesn't mean that it is immune to being made inconsequential. Changing coaches, especially a legend like JAB is never going to be easy. It took Indiana a few years to be relevant again after transitioning from Bobby Knight. Louisville bounced right back with a big name coach after the last few years of Denny Crum. Look at Michigan after Steve Fisher. If JAB retired in 2004, does the Melo Center get built?

Interesting that you bring up Denny Crum. I really want to see JB avoid ending his career the way Denny did, although JB has had a much better overall career.

 

[OrangePA]

I'm not confident that he will move the team ahead but I never want them to dismiss him.

We are going to have 3 13+ loss seasons in a row (i think that's a safe bet this year)

That hasn't happened since 1962. Now most of that time, Boeheim has been the coach and is the reason why it's been so long since that's happened.

But he's definitely slipping. Before 2006-07 he never had three 10 loss seasons in a row.

i think we know how this ends but we can't jump the gun because he's been so great

I know how this ends - JB retires after next season.

If that is not how it ends I will be surprised.