Is the BE deep or just down?

[billsin01]

I've seen posted here a couple times that the BE has "never been deeper" or is "the deepest it's ever been." I'm not sure I'm on board with that since, A) people love to make 'best ever' proclamations that are rarely true and B) it's my contention the league is just down.

Consider:

How many elite teams is there (right now, things can change by Feb or so)? Answer: 1 (cuse); Maybe 2 if you include the Hall but I would say they need to keep winning for a couple weeks to prove that.

What about the rest? ND has 3 conference wins but 5 OOC losses. Ouch. Pitt has five losses and has yet to win in conference. L'ville started strong but got out-rebounded by 10 and allowed PC to shoot 53% from the field in their loss to the previously winless (in league) Friars. Depaul still appears to be Depaul. USF has the two conference wins but has SIX OOC losses. Marquette hasn't been the same since losing Otule.

Plus, you've got several teams who are either unquestionably down or headed in a bad direction:
-- L'ville isn't quite as physically imposing as the past few years and is really struggling
-- Nova struggled at the end of the last two seasons but was generally good. This year? Not so much.
-- Pitt has defied logic with it's three straight conference defeats
-- ND had a great year last year but will struggle to get to that point this year sans Abromaitis.
-- St. Johns has some nice young kids but is unlikely to reach last year's win total.

I don't know that anyone can predict what happens, but it looks to me like you have the Cuse as the clear favorite with a few teams that clearly have the talent but are struggling right now -- Pitt and UConn top that list. Still wouldn't be surprised to see each rebound with strong BE showings. Seton Hall seems to be legit; Gtown is thin but talented; Cincy/WVU/Marquette all play hard and are tough. Otherwise a bunch of teams with some holes like l'ville/nd/usf/st. johns

Anyway you slice it this league isn't deeper than any of the last three seasons, especially since last year the ninth place team won the title.

 

[CusefanATL]

Very very down...

 

[jdubs30]

Pretty simple

Teams at the top are down
Teams in the middle are what they usually are
Teams at the bottom are better

If we're saying "deep" as in pure numbers, yes, it's deeper; simply because any of these teams could win on any night
If we're saying "deep" as in quality teams from 1-10, no, it's not.

 

[PoppyHart]

If you ask me, the BE blows this year, and is well on its way to embarrassing itself yet again in March. I can see another 7-9 bids, and only 1-2 reaching the second weekend. Come November, thought, it will once again be hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[DallasCuse]

I think for the most part the rest of the league is quite strong, but all the teams have some warts. UConn will hit a rhythm and be a very tough out come BE Tourney time. Cin/Pit/Marq/Lou/Gtown/WV will all be very competitive, and make the Dance. So too it appears will SetonHall, and Villanova has enough talent as well.

A lot of what is transpiring is that, outside of DePaul, the bottom rung teams are all good enough to win on a good night, and/or if playing at home. Could end up making the BE send a bunch of lower seeds to the tournament, which will make interesting brackets.

 

[Noexcuse]

If you ask me, the BE blows this year, and is well on its way to embarrassing itself yet again in March. I can see another 7-9 bids, and only 1-2 reaching the second weekend. Come November, thought, it will once again be hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

It might not be just the Big East that's down this year though, it could be the major Conferences across the board. The Big East may not get as many as 7-9 bids this year, but it's not exactly clear where the Committee goes to fill out the field.

 

[Marsh01]

The sad thing is watch like 2 BE teams make the FF this year. All the years where we were loaded as a conference and got 0 or 1 team in the FF this year could be the bizarro world scenario.

The only thing giving the conference some respect is the bad teams are not as bad as past years. Even DePaul and USF who have been the cellar dwellars of the conference are beating good teams.

 

[cspades99]

I think it's down. And I think college bball is down overall this year, rather than stepping back up as "they" all thought after last season.

I'm expecting another surprise champion if I'm being honest (UConn had no business winning last year, and I expect to feel the same after early April).

 

[DallasCuse]

If you ask me, the BE blows this year, and is well on its way to embarrassing itself yet again in March. I can see another 7-9 bids, and only 1-2 reaching the second weekend. Come November, thought, it will once again be hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

If the BE "blows", please indicate which conferences are significantly better. SEC? PAC12? ACC? I watch a ton of Big12 hoops, and it is certainly not better than the BE this year.

 

[Knicks411]

If the BE "blows", please indicate which conferences are significantly better. SEC? PAC12? ACC? I watch a ton of Big12 hoops, and it is certainly not better than the BE this year.

I guess it depends on how you define it, but I think the B10 and B12 are better. Pac12 is terrible.

 

[Noexcuse]

I think it's down. And I think college bball is down overall this year, rather than stepping back up as "they" all thought after last season.

I'm expecting another surprise champion if I'm being honest (UConn had no business winning last year, and I expect to feel the same after early April).

Could be, but surprise may be somebody like Indiana or Duke.

 

[Cuseman78]

Its definitely down. Take a look around the league and look at the star potential. There isn't much. No offense to Kevin Jones (who is having a nice year), but in a normal Big East year he wouldn't sniff the BE POY conversation.

I think there is clearly one elite team, and after that it's a big mess. Uconn and Marquette to me will end up 2 and 3 but its anybody's guess after that. I will say that I think the bottom of the league is better than it's been in a while with Depaul, Rutgers, Providence, and USF playing better ball in stretches.

 

[Marsh01]

I guess it depends on how you define it, but I think the B10 and B12 are better. Pac12 is terrible.

The Big 10 is interesting. Here are the standings:

Michigan State 4-0 15-2
Illinois 4-1 15-3
Indiana 3-1 15-1
Michigan 3-1 13-3
Purdue 3-1 13-4
Ohio State 3-2 15-3
Iowa 2-3 10-8
Northwestern 1-2 11-4
Wisconsin 1-3 12-5
Penn State 1-3 9-8
Minnesota 0-4 12-5
Nebraska 0-4 8-7

I mean yes they are having a nice season but its very misleading. Nebraska, Minnesota, Penn State are terrrible. Northwestern is still Northwestern and I dont see them making the tourney again. Wisconsin will probably figure it out but they are clearly down. Iowa will be lucky to finish .500. Purdue is so-so. Geting blown out by Penn State doesnt help their cause. That leaves Michigan State, Ohio State, Indiana, Michigan and Illinois.

A lot of the conferences credit has to do with Indiana. Had they lost to Kentucky I think the Big 10 would be looked at differently.

To say they are the "best" conference is a bit of a stretch. Even the Big 12 has only 4 real good teams in Baylor, Kansas, KState and Mizzou.

I don't think college hoops is down so to speak, I just think that there isnt a conference that is far superior than the 2nd place team like there has been for many years prior.

Should make the tournament very interesting that's for sure.

 

[jordoo]

One of the biggest things you are seeing is that some of the coaching changes of late have really paid off. Prov, Rutgers and DePaul now have coaches in place that have them much improved and make them dangerous at home for any team. Huge uprades for these perenial celar dwellers. Also Seton Hall has a much better coach than Gonzo and has two seniors who can really play.

To me the Top of the BE is very thin but very good and it only includes SU right now. I think by the end of the season uconn will join SU in that top flight but they have a lot of work to do and need to develope an on court leader, Calhoun can't be the emotional charge like he was against WVU every game.

The middle hard to sort out right now. Uconn, Hall, WVU, Gtown, ND, St Johns, SFU, Marq, and Lville. Who's really that bad? who's really that good? Seems Hall, WVU and Uconn are actually the best of that group from what I have seen. Lville could just have easily have lost 4 OOC games that they won and people would not be as surprised, they cannot score in the half court and the defense is not as good as it used to be.

The bottom is a collection of teams that can beat you any given night. Prov, Rutgers, Pitt, Nova, DePaul ect.

In shot its a very down year, IMO.

 

[Cuseman78]

The Big 10 is interesting. Here are the standings:

Michigan State 4-0 15-2
Illinois 4-1 15-3
Indiana 3-1 15-1
Michigan 3-1 13-3
Purdue 3-1 13-4
Ohio State 3-2 15-3
Iowa 2-3 10-8
Northwestern 1-2 11-4
Wisconsin 1-3 12-5
Penn State 1-3 9-8
Minnesota 0-4 12-5
Nebraska 0-4 8-7

I mean yes they are having a nice season but its very misleading. Nebraska, Minnesota, Penn State are terrrible. Northwestern is still Northwestern and I dont see them making the tourney again. Wisconsin will probably figure it out but they are clearly down. Iowa will be lucky to finish .500. Purdue is so-so. Geting blown out by Penn State doesnt help their cause. That leaves Michigan State, Ohio State, Indiana, Michigan and Illinois.

A lot of the conferences credit has to do with Indiana. Had they lost to Kentucky I think the Big 10 would be looked at differently.

To say they are the "best" conference is a bit of a stretch. Even the Big 12 has only 4 real good teams in Baylor, Kansas, KState and Mizzou.

I don't think college hoops is down so to speak, I just think that there isnt a conference that is far superior than the 2nd place team like there has been for many years prior.

Should make the tournament very interesting that's for sure.

If the Big 10 isn't, then who? I think the Big 10 is clearly the toughest league in the country this year. And I don't think its all that close. Not to mention, its probably the toughest league to win a road game in the country.

 

[Marsh01]

If the Big 10 isn't, then who? I think the Big 10 is clearly the toughest league in the country this year. And I don't think its all that close. Not to mention, its probably the toughest league to win a road game in the country.

Oh I agree. I was just pointing out that if this is the best conference then college hoops may certainly be down. I just did a piss poor job in explaining my point.

 

[PoppyHart]

I guess you never really know who the "good" teams are until after the fact. Winning in the tourney is what it's all about. Right now, the Big East is looking at a lot of 4 vs. 5 games in the (now) third round. UCONN, Gtown, SHU, and L'ville, Marquette are all in that realm. Win the majority of them, and the season was a success. Lose them and it's not.

 

[Knicks411]

4 real good teams in the big 12 is pretty damn good though, that's nearly half of the conference. (They're down to 10). That would be like the BE having 6 or 7 teams at least the quality of K-State. (Which they have in the past, and the conference was awesome).

The Big 10 has 5 or 6 teams that are probably inside the top 40 or so teams in the country, including multiple teams at the top. Ohio State may not be the best team in the country, but does anyone think they are outside the top 5? Indiana and Michigan State I think are outside that group of super elite teams, but I think they are both in the next group. Then you have Michigan, Wisconsin (gotta think they'll get it more together), Purdue, Illinois who are in the solid teams, all who are likely going to dance.

And sure there are some bad teams at the bottom of the conference, but every conference has that. (And Minnesota may not be THAT bad). The BE had 11 teams dancing last year, but they still had some terrible teams at the bottom.

Edit: Sorry Marsh, I didn't read your next post until I had typed this one up.

 

[Orangemen]

Why do people expect young teams to improve so much by the end of the year? How often does this actually happen?

That was the knock on SU back in 09-10. Everyone said our ceiling was lower than Kentucky's, because Kentucky was so young. Take away the AO injury (if only) and we were still in the same position relative to the young teams, that we were throughout the season.

Freshman improve from year 1 to year 2, not from month 4 to month 6. At some point, you are who your record and performance says you are.

If anything UConn is worse now than they were a couple weeks ago. Seems to me that being young is gonna make coming out of their funk that much tougher.

 

[BuffOrange]

Why do people expect young teams to improve so much by the end of the year? How often does this actually happen?

I'd like to see some empirical evidence of this as well. I think it's just something people in the media say so they have something to say. I mean I'm sure you can find examples of young teams getting better later in the season. But you can also find examples of older teams who get better and young teams who don't.

 

[SU2NASA]

The Big East sucks. We're the best ACC team right now.

 

[Marsh01]

If anything UConn is worse now than they were a couple weeks ago. Seems to me that being young is gonna make coming out of their funk that much tougher.

Uconn just has a leadership problem. Plain and simple. Even Clahoun admitted they have no guy who is stepping up and taking the Kemba role. It was amazing to see last season (even though I threw up every time it happened) each player step up their level of play based on one guy's actions. They dont have that this year. Lamb is no leader. Neither is Oriakhi or Drummond or Napier. Its almost like they just expected to pick up where they left off last season.

They will get better. too much talent on that team not too. I just dont think they have that extra something that will get them another title.

 

[Knicks411]

I'm not sure it should be young as much as it might be teams that are inexperienced playing with one another. Which of course are often young teams.

That was the knock on SU back in 09-10. Everyone said our ceiling was lower than Kentucky's, because Kentucky was so young. Take away the AO injury (if only) and we were still in the same position relative to the young teams, that we were throughout the season.

Is this true though? Even throwing out the AO injury, we lost (SELECTIVE ENDPOINTS TIME!!!!) our last 2 games of the season. @Lville, Gtown at the BET. And we lost to Lville a few weeks prior to that, so we lost 3 of our last 7 games. We did lose to good teams, of course.

But if you just look at the BE season (and I'll include the Memphis game we played cause it's in the BE season, and it makes it easier for me), in the first 9 games we outscored opponents by about .135 points per possession. Int he last 10 games, we outscored teams by .10 points per possession.

That's not a huge difference, and it's selective endpoints as well, but I think it may be fair to say we didn't play as well at the end of the season as we did at other times. If I just looked at the last 8 games, we "only" outscored teams by .07 poinjts per possession. Might be a fluke, but there might be something to us not performing as well at the en dof that season, even throwing out the AO deal.

 

[RF2044]

Honestly--who cares?

I only root for SU. I have no concerted interest in whether our conference opponents advance. I certainly don't derive any utility from seeing pitt, uconn, louisville, notre dame, etc. have more successful postseasons than Syracuse.

Provided SU performs well, I couldn't give a crap about the rest of those teams. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't "root" for them to beat OOC opponents from other big conferences in the post season, but I certainly don't miss any sleep about how the BE performs.

 

[cspades99]

Its definitely down. Take a look around the league and look at the star potential. There isn't much. No offense to Kevin Jones (who is having a nice year), but in a normal Big East year he wouldn't sniff the BE POY conversation.

I think there is clearly one elite team, and after that it's a big mess. Uconn and Marquette to me will end up 2 and 3 but its anybody's guess after that. I will say that I think the bottom of the league is better than it's been in a while with Depaul, Rutgers, Providence, and USF playing better ball in stretches.

I'm not sure I understand the first point. Are you saying Kevin Jones' numbers are only good because there aren't other stars, or that his numbers wouldn't get considered in another year? His numbers are really good.