Jason Collins: first openly gay athlete in US Sports history

[bballbeadle]

Do you believe bi-sexuals exist?

I know several! However, I can tell you a funny thing that one of my friends said years ago. We were having an annual visit and at some point I commented, "---, it seems you really are bisexual." I thought it was an innocuous statement. The next year when we visited she said, "You know, I thought about what you said last time about my being bisexual, and I didn't like it. It really made me kind of mad. After much thought, I have decided I am a lesbian with an extremely high tolerance for men."

Make of that what you will.

 

[SWC75]

As long as it's consensual (and you're not hiding an STD), nope. In moderation, nope. And I get your point -- mine is that there are fewer and fewer people who follow biblical dictates on sex. To that, I say "Amen."

I think the concept is that if someone was born a certain way, what he is must be OK because God made him that way. You can find a biblical passage to support any point of view. If homosexuality were so bad, why isn't it forbidden by the 10 Commandments, (as adultery is). Even coveting you neighbor's house is apparently worse than homosexuality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ten_Commandments

 

[The General]

I think the concept is that if someone was born a certain way, what he is must be OK because God made him that way. You can find a biblical passage to support any point of view. If homosexuality were so bad, why isn't it forbidden by the 10 Commandments, (as adultery is). Even coveting you neighbor's house is apparently worse than homosexuality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ten_Commandments

Excellent point. They could have tossed it in, made it 11, but as George Carlin said, "Why not 9? Or 11? Because 10 is a psychologically satisfying number!" Or made it the 8th deadly sin. Maybe it got left on the cutting room floor during the final edit.

 

[HakWarrick1]

There is not a Christian alive who does not sin before or after receiving Christ. This is why Jesus told us not to cast a stone and for us to look at the log in our own eyes before we complain about the sliver in someone else's.

What does this mean?

 

[mountaincuse]

What does this mean?

It means we are all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[cto]

I have just read this entire thread in one sitting. I think it misses one salient point: Different Christian denominations have different viewpoints on this subject -- meaning there is no one "answer" as to what the "Christian position" is in the US today.

I am chairman of the board of a Congregational Church. For those who are unfamiliar with it, Congregationalism is the most prevalent Protestant denomination in New England. It was founded by the Pilgrims who came to the US to escape England and to live in a Democracy where there was religious freedom and where all were considered equal (the Pilgrims also established the representative form of local government). Sorry for this digression, but I wanted to provide some historical background for what I want to say here.

My congregation has many gay members. Many of them are very active in the life of the church, contributing their time, talent and skills to helping the church carry out its mission of improving the lives of the less fortunate. I hate stereotypes, but it is not surprising that among our gay members are, for example, some very talented designers, advertising executives and musicians. The contribution of these men to our mission of helping others ... is no less heartfelt or less important, than the are the contributions of the church's straight members (who form the large majority of our congregation).

 

[HakWarrick1]

I have just read this entire thread in one sitting. I think it misses one salient point: Different Christian denominations have different viewpoints on this subject -- meaning there is no one "answer" as to what the "Christian position" is in the US today.

I am chairman of the board of a Congregational Church. For those who are unfamiliar with it, Congregationalism is the most prevalent Protestant denomination in New England. It was founded by the Pilgrims who came to the US to escape England and to live in a Democracy where all were considered equal (the Pilgrims also established the representative form of local government). Sorry for this digression, but I wanted to provide some historical background for what I want to say here.

My congregation has many gay members. Many of them are very active in the life of the church, contributing their time, talent and skills to helping the church carry out its mission of improving the lives of the less fortunate. I hate stereotypes, but it is not surprising that among our gay members are, for example, some very talented designers, advertising executives and musicians. The contribution of these men to our mission of helping others ... is no less heartfelt or less important, than the are the contributions of the church's straight members (who form the large majority of our congregation).

Does your church have a different view, than the one described by Todd+Sabach? I don't think anybody in here bases their opinions of Christianity on the Westboro Baptist Church,+other hate groups that claim a religious justification.

 

[cto]

Does your church have a different view, than the one described by Todd+Sabach? I don't think anybody in here bases their opinions of Christianity on the Westboro Baptist Church,+other hate groups that claim a religious justification.

We certainly don't oppose homosexuality or condemn it. We are very inclusive. We welcome everyone. For example, our most recent group of new members included people whose religious backgrounds were Eastern Orthodox, Jewish, Roman Catholic and many Protestant denominations. A Congregational Church is built around its congregation. We don't have bishops or districts or anything like that... and we don't get money from a "central office" or send money to one -- because there isn't one. We also don't have a lot of rules or a set liturgy. For one whose background was Methodist (which does have a lot of rules and infrastructure), it is to me a rewarding experience.

 

[shandeezy7]

We certainly don't oppose homosexuality or condemn it. We are very inclusive. We welcome everyone. For example, our most recent group of new members included people whose religious backgrounds were Eastern Orthodox, Jewish, Roman Catholic and many Protestant denominations. A Congregational Church is built around its congregation. We don't have bishops or districts or anything like that... and we don't get money from a "central office" or send money to one -- because there isn't one. We also don't have a lot of rules or a set liturgy. For one whose background was Methodist (which does have a lot of rules and infrastructure), it is to me a rewarding experience.

To that same effect, not all Catholic parishes are alike. There have been a number over the years who you could say have gone "against" official stances of the Roman Catholic Church. For example, All Saints in Syracuse, which a couple of years ago hoped to build a statue in honor of Mychal Judge, a gay priest and FDNY chaplain who was killed on 9/11. The parish openly embraces the gay community and invites them to join their parish.

http://www.syracuse.com/kirst/index.ssf/2011/07/post_181.html

My parish, St. Vincent de Paul, has been the host of numerous fundraisers and dinners for the Dorothy Day House, an organization offering home-care services to AIDS patients that deals primarily with the LGBT community.

The same thing can be said for a number of Catholic Universities in this country, which tend to be a little more progressive than the Catholic Church itself. Le Moyne has numerous LGBT groups and a good portion of their employees are openly gay. And for the most part, people don't care. It's viewed as normal, which imo is how it should be.

 

[KingOtis]

We certainly don't oppose homosexuality or condemn it. We are very inclusive. We welcome everyone. For example, our most recent group of new members included people whose religious backgrounds were Eastern Orthodox, Jewish, Roman Catholic and many Protestant denominations. A Congregational Church is built around its congregation. We don't have bishops or districts or anything like that... and we don't get money from a "central office" or send money to one -- because there isn't one. We also don't have a lot of rules or a set liturgy. For one whose background was Methodist (which does have a lot of rules and infrastructure), it is to me a rewarding experience.

Inclusive, you say? What a novel concept!

 

[KingOtis]

To that same effect, not all Catholic parishes are alike. There have been a number over the years who you could say have gone "against" official stances of the Roman Catholic Church. For example, All Saints in Syracuse, which a couple of years ago hoped to build a statue in honor of Mychal Judge, a gay priest and FDNY chaplain who was killed on 9/11. The parish openly embraces the gay community and invites them to join their parish.

http://www.syracuse.com/kirst/index.ssf/2011/07/post_181.html

My parish, St. Vincent de Paul, has been the host of numerous fundraisers and dinners for the Dorothy Day House, an organization offering home-care services to AIDS patients that deals primarily with the LGBT community.

The same thing can be said for a number of Catholic Universities in this country, which tend to be a little more progressive than the Catholic Church itself. Le Moyne has numerous LGBT groups and a good portion of their employees are openly gay. And for the most part, people don't care. It's viewed as normal, which imo is how it should be.

It took 15 pages, but we finally have some truly inspirational stories.

I pose the question again to those still living in the dark ages. Are cto and shandeezy doing it wrong? Or are they leading by example?

 

[mountaincuse]

It took 15 pages, but we finally have some truly inspirational stories.

I pose the question again to those still living in the dark ages. Are cto and shandeezy doing it wrong? Or are they leading by example?

So people are "doing it wrong" if they aren't doing it like you think they should?

 

[Todd Gack]

I think it misses one salient point: Different Christian denominations have different viewpoints on this subject -- meaning there is no one "answer" as to what the "Christian position" is in the US today.

Agreed -- but the back-and-forth Sabach and I were having was over those Christians who believe in "loving the sinner, but hating the sin" (i.e., it's okay to be gay as long as you don't act on it).

 

[thebigeast44]

I have not read through this thread but I remember going through pre-cana before getting married. The person running the class asked a question of the people there what they thought of gay people and their behavior. He then divided the class into 2 groups - one group who thought there was nothing wrong with gay people acting on their inborn desire for those of the same sex (my group) - and the other group who either had negative feelings towards gay people or who thought that we should love gay people but they should not act on their desires.

I can just imagine if a heterosexual couple were told that they could love their significant other but could never have sex with them. They would have thought the idea was ludicrous but that is what they were suggesting for gay people.

This class (which I took because my wife wanted to get married in a Catholic ceremony) just reaffirmed why I left the church during college when I finally was away from home and began to question the beliefs I had grown up with. I became agnostic and have remained so ever since.

I am not against religion per se. However, I do not believe any religion should determine public policy or as in this case with Broussards comments be used as a legitimate reason to cast dispersion at another's behavior and claim that they are not bigoted since their comments stem from their religious beliefs. As if that should be more acceptable than another reason. It is not IMHO.

If a person wants to live by the tenants of their religion in their own personal life, more power to them. And if they want to express those views in public, they are free to do that as well.

But they should be prepared for people to challenge those views, since those views are based on belief not fact. And some religious people will push back and claim that any criticism stems from religious intolerance.

My view is that the majority of time it does not come from religious intolerance but from people being upset that someone is sitting in judgment of their behavior. And not many people enjoy having other people judge them.

And that is why IMHO Broussard has received most of the push back regarding his comments. Not because of his religious beliefs but because people are asking who the heck is he to judge what others should do in their own personal lives. I wouldn't like it if I were Collins and I'm sure the majority of people on this forum wouldn't like it. Particularly the part about pre-marital sex

 

[KingOtis]

So people are "doing it wrong" if they aren't doing it like you think they should?

You answered my question with another question.

I would hope that if it was up to them, everyone would agree that homosexual acts aren't sinful.

 

[Eric15]

I have not read through this thread but I remember going through pre-cana before getting married.

Did your Pre-Cana try and sell you on "natural family planning"? Where you reject all forms of contraception and basically just plan around the natural cycle of your wife. And thus, you end up with more kids than Shawn Kemp.

 

[RandygoCuse]

To that same effect, not all Catholic parishes are alike. There have been a number over the years who you could say have gone "against" official stances of the Roman Catholic Church. For example, All Saints in Syracuse, which a couple of years ago hoped to build a statue in honor of Mychal Judge, a gay priest and FDNY chaplain who was killed on 9/11. The parish openly embraces the gay community and invites them to join their parish.

http://www.syracuse.com/kirst/index.ssf/2011/07/post_181.html

My parish, St. Vincent de Paul, has been the host of numerous fundraisers and dinners for the Dorothy Day House, an organization offering home-care services to AIDS patients that deals primarily with the LGBT community.

The same thing can be said for a number of Catholic Universities in this country, which tend to be a little more progressive than the Catholic Church itself. Le Moyne has numerous LGBT groups and a good portion of their employees are openly gay. And for the most part, people don't care. It's viewed as normal, which imo is how it should be.

That's great that these parishes have embraced the gay community. I was wondering if it has hurt their funding at all.

 

[br801]

I have just read this entire thread in one sitting.

I'd say you deserve some sort of an award for that. And consider yourself lucky that your head didn't explode.

 

[sabach]

To that same effect, not all Catholic parishes are alike. There have been a number over the years who you could say have gone "against" official stances of the Roman Catholic Church. For example, All Saints in Syracuse, which a couple of years ago hoped to build a statue in honor of Mychal Judge, a gay priest and FDNY chaplain who was killed on 9/11. The parish openly embraces the gay community and invites them to join their parish.

http://www.syracuse.com/kirst/index.ssf/2011/07/post_181.html

My parish, St. Vincent de Paul, has been the host of numerous fundraisers and dinners for the Dorothy Day House, an organization offering home-care services to AIDS patients that deals primarily with the LGBT community.

The same thing can be said for a number of Catholic Universities in this country, which tend to be a little more progressive than the Catholic Church itself. Le Moyne has numerous LGBT groups and a good portion of their employees are openly gay. And for the most part, people don't care. It's viewed as normal, which imo is how it should be.

I think that it is a good thing that churches are reaching out to the homosexual community. To that end, I am going to try to schedule a meeting with Father Daley of All Saints parish to discuss with him how his church is able to remain inclusive to gays in a church tradition which teaches that gay acts are sinful. I do believe that regardless of anyone's theology on sex (straight, gay or whatever), the church should be a place which is open to all. Some on this board feel that unless you accept that homosexual acts are not sinful, you are a bigot, and by definintion cannot be inclusive to gays. I see that argument, but do not agree with it, especially since I suppose that Father Daley's theology on gay sex mirrors mine (even though he is gay himself), and yet he is able to lead a church that reaches the gay community.

 

[Guinness]

Honestly, it would only be an issue in the locker room, if the other guys make it an issue... It wasent like the dude became gay the day that he came out. They have been working together this whole time. Had a few gay soldiers in my past units... Never was an issue

Exactly this. If you are secure in who you are you are not going into take a shower thinking who is looking at me. You are going in to take your shower and thinking about what you have to do that day.

 

[br801]

Since this story broke, I've heard and read many people ask why Collins' announcement is even news. This thread, and the media frenzy over this story, is the answer.

Although I hope that sometime in the near future an openly gay athlete playing a major sport won't be news, we seem to have a long way to go. But for now, kudos to Collins and all those he has inspired and empowered.

 

[KingOtis]

Some on this board feel that unless you accept that homosexual acts are not sinful, you are a bigot, and by definintion cannot be inclusive to gays.

You are. Or if you want to split hairs, the interpretation that you subscribe to is bigoted.

Allowing someone in your church without allowing them to be who they are is not inclusive. They're second-class members. It's no better than making them sit at the back of the bus or use separate bathrooms and drinking fountains.

 

[sabach]

You are. Or if you want to split hairs, the interpretation that you subscribe to is bigoted.

Allowing someone in your church without allowing them to be who they are is not inclusive. They're second-class members. It's no better than making them sit at the back of the bus or use separate bathrooms and drinking fountains.

I get what you are saying. But how do you take that position against me and simultaneously call Shandeezy7's post "inspirational"? You did read the article that was linked in that post, correct?

 

[KingOtis]

I get what you are saying. But how do you take that position against me and simultaneously call Shandeezy7's post "inspirational"? You did read the article that was linked in that post, correct?

I'm on my phone, so I don't always read the linked articles. If I misunderstood where shandeezy was coming from, then I take back what said.

 

[sabach]

I'm on my phone, so I don't always read the linked articles. If I misunderstood where shandeezy was coming from, then I take back what said.

Well I don't want to speak for Shandezzy but the article discussed the official teaching of the Roman Catholic church as stating that homosexual acts are inherently sinful but that orientation is not. (Same position I have) It went on to discuss how All Saints parish, lead by a celibate gay man, (something I mentioned early in this thread) reaches out to the gay community. (Same thing I want to do) My point is that I am trying to find out how I can reach out in my church to the gay community while maintaining our theological position that gay sex is sin. I am very interested on how others who share my theology do this, which All Saints appears to do and why I am going to meet with Father Daley.
I understand your position is that I cannot be inclusive and because of my theology I am bigot or at a minimum my interpretation is. That's fine, I see where you can think that and not understand where I am coming from. I just wanted to know why you don't call Father Daley and Shandeezy's parish bigots for doing the very thing I am trying to do, let alone using them to make a crack about me being in the dark ages.