Jay Williams on the officiating in this Tournament

[Cowtown]

OH I agree it is a large task - that is why it should be broken down and simplified. Each conference has their own director of officials right? Im sure they have different emphasis than another league cheese. I would also be interested to stack the NBA rule book next to the college rule book and see what is thicker. I appreciate the difficulty of the job - I also appreciate the fact that I can see the same guy ref 4 times a week covering 3 different time zones, focusing on different points of emphasis. It's not easy - but the current state is not good and needs to improve.

Years ago you had to audition every year to work certain associations, and the reviewing boards were comprised of their head coaches. Which is why guys like Bobby Knight got away with so much bad behavior for so long: if you T'd him up like he deserved, you weren't going to work Big 10 games anymore because he'd veto your name. And he wasn't the only one who would do that. I don't know whether it's still done the same way.

I don't see a major effort coming toward improving the officiating. The NCAA is all about the money, and officials don't generate revenue. Rather, they're an expense to be kept under control.

 

[dollarbill44]

Here's the issue to which you're referring. The NBA has about 75 professional officials. It's their full-time job. It's very easy to get them together regularly and develop consensus on interpretation and application of the rules. The NCAA has about 350 Div I teams, Div II about 270, and div III another 350. Then there is the NAIA, and all the junior colleges. And don't forget about all the women's basketball teams. So the NCAA has thousands of officials, all of whom are part-time and spread all over the country. I'm sure you can see the nature of the difficulty in getting them "all on the same page."

But, they don't have thousands of officials doing the NCAA tournament. It shouldn't be that hard for them to get the 16-20 officiating teams together for a couple of hours before the start of the tournament.

They can also run webcasts during the season for all of the officials to keep "on the same page". There are a lot of ways they can tackle training of officials via modern technology, for example, bodycam footage to look at close calls from a real-time and real-view perspective to highlight what officials should be looking for when making a call. Requiring officials to participate in a few hours of on-line training each month doesn't seem that daunting to me. Especially when you look at how much money is at stake in the tournament.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The talking heads on college basketball games invariably know bupkis about the rules. I find that pretty much all of the complaining about basketball refs around here comes from guys who have never done it. I didn't watch every game this weekend, so I don't know what happened in those instances cited here. However most of the time when I saw close calls reviewed, it appeared the ref's call was correct. I don't even respond much in the game threads anymore to the "These refs blow!" and "That was a horrible call! We were robbed!" because all too often what I saw on the TV - in-game or on replays - it looked like the right call. Now of course, they're not always right, and yes there are problems with the "old boys clubs" at the top. But that won't change until more people get involved.

So here's my annual appeal to those who think it's so easy to get the right call every time: please join your local association. If you're all that good, we could sure use your help! I've made that appeal every year since I've been on these things, however I haven't heard from anyone who has. But that door is still open, and always will be!

Listen my friend. You know I respect the heck out of you, but I find this plea of yours to be akin to Townie and the rest telling us that we can't disagree with JB because he has 1,000 wins and we have none.

 

[Cowtown]

Listen my friend. You know I respect the heck out of you, but I find this plea of yours to be akin to Townie and the rest telling us that we can't disagree with JB because he has 1,000 wins and we have none.

No worries, old bud, the respect is mutual. This forum thing is all about the exchange of dialog and ideas. I'm not trying to say "If you don't ref, you can't talk," rather that getting involved and actually doing it would answer a lot of the questions some here have. I probably haven't done a good job of expressing it that way. :noidea:

 

[Townie72]

Listen my friend. You know I respect the heck out of you, but I find this plea of yours to be akin to Townie and the rest telling us that we can't disagree with JB because he has 1,000 wins and we have none.

That happens to be one of the rare FACTS on this board filled with the opinions of those with Zero wins.

 

[samspann1]

The talking heads on college basketball games invariably know bupkis about the rules. I find that pretty much all of the complaining about basketball refs around here comes from guys who have never done it. I didn't watch every game this weekend, so I don't know what happened in those instances cited here. However most of the time when I saw close calls reviewed, it appeared the ref's call was correct. I don't even respond much in the game threads anymore to the "These refs blow!" and "That was a horrible call! We were robbed!" because all too often what I saw on the TV - in-game or on replays - it looked like the right call.

That may be the case, but that blown call in the Northwestern/Gonzaga game was as clear as day - Collins clearly saw it from the sideline, 25+ feet away. And to make matters worse, the ref T'd up Collins. I'm not saying that Northwestern would have won, save for the missed call, but that was a HUGE momentum swing, in favor of the Zags.

 

[upperdeck]

the gonzaga call was so atrocious that no announcer saw it live and neither did 99% of the viewing audience. calling the T was the bad part.

 

[upperdeck]

The NCAA needs to get to a 4 official grouping with 1 guy stating under the basket at all times and the other 2 sliding foul line to foul line.. that would eliminate many issues cause be view and angles and pace of the game..

 

[samspann1]

Also, I think that being able to review OOB calls in the last 2:00 is dumb.

I understand that there has to be some sort of arbitrary cutoff, but is an OOB call in a one possession game with 2:30 left much less important than one with 1:30 left?

 

[jordoo]

Here's the issue to which you're referring. The NBA has about 75 professional officials. It's their full-time job. It's very easy to get them together regularly and develop consensus on interpretation and application of the rules. The NCAA has about 350 Div I teams, Div II about 270, and div III another 350. Then there is the NAIA, and all the junior colleges. And don't forget about all the women's basketball teams. So the NCAA has thousands of officials, all of whom are part-time and spread all over the country. I'm sure you can see the nature of the difficulty in getting them "all on the same page."

They have loads of officials and may are overworked IMO. Traveling without enough down time will not help your performance as an official.

 

[Cowtown]

That happens to be one of the rare FACTS on this board filled with the opinions of those with Zero wins.

I don't recall seeing in the user agreement that a coaching record was a requirement to participate here.

 

[upperdeck]

I got lots of coaching wins. not NCAA wins, but I got no NCAA losses either

 

[CuseFaninVT]

That happens to be one of the rare FACTS on this board filled with the opinions of those with Zero wins.

Yet it means absolutely nothing. It's an opinion board for all.

 

[Cowtown]

That may be the case, but that blown call in the Northwestern/Gonzaga game was as clear as day - Collins clearly saw it from the sideline, 25+ feet away. And to make matters worse, the ref T'd up Collins. I'm not saying that Northwestern would have won, save for the missed call, but that was a HUGE momentum swing, in favor of the Zags.

Fortunately, I made the decision at half-time to go to Mass with the Mrs, and am thus able to recuse myself from discussing that particular call/no-call. Phew!

Obviously I didn't see Collins' reaction, either. But I can say this: anyone can miss a call and through the course of a game we invariably do. But if a coach goes thermo-nuclear and you don't address him one way or another, it will certainly be your last game in the tournament that year. Because in their pregame with the assigner/evaluator, that's always one of the points of emphasis. That's one reason I rarely T up a coach, and prefer to talk him down - because I'm hardly perfect myself. But then, I've never been on national TV, either.

 

[Cowtown]

The NCAA needs to get to a 4 official grouping with 1 guy stating under the basket at all times and the other 2 sliding foul line to foul line.. that would eliminate many issues cause be view and angles and pace of the game..

Well, that would bump up the cost of officials by about another $1500 per game at the NCAA Div I level, anyway. It also increases the demand on the pool of available referees by 33 1/3%. And hell, I already saw too many guys making calls outside their primary zone. You tryna start fights?

 

[samspann1]

Fortunately, I made the decision at half-time to go to Mass with the Mrs, and am thus able to recuse myself from discussing that particular call/no-call. Phew!

Obviously I didn't see Collins' reaction, either. But I can say this: anyone can miss a call and through the course of a game we invariably do. But if a coach goes thermo-nuclear and you don't address him one way or another, it will certainly be your last game in the tournament that year. Because in their pregame with the assigner/evaluator, that's always one of the points of emphasis. That's one reason I rarely T up a coach, and prefer to talk him down - because I'm hardly perfect myself. But then, I've never been on national TV, either.

I don't know what Collins said, but he was motioning that the Zags defender went up and through the basket. Perhaps he was T'ed up for being on the court, but let's be honest - if that was Coach K, Roy, Izzo, etc., there's no T called for simply being on the court.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I don't know what Collins said, but he was motioning that the Zags defender went up and through the basket. Perhaps he was T'ed up for being on the court, but let's be honest - if that was Coach K, Roy, Izzo, etc., there's no T called for simply being on the court.

I was wondering about that as well. It was likely the distance he came out, combined with the fact he was going straight at the ref.

 

[Townie72]

I don't recall seeing in the user agreement that a coaching record was a requirement to participate here.

Every one can post (within limits determined by the Moderators).

But not everyone is going to be taken seriously or not challenged on their opinions.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Every one can post (within limits determined by the Moderators).

But not everyone is going to be taken seriously or not challenged on their opinions.

 

[cuseincincy]

I have coached and I have reffed. Of the two my opinion is that reffing is much harder. That said there are calls that are inexplicable other than the ref just flat wasn't paying attention. I actually got my first T in over 10 years this season. There is no question I deserved the T and there is no question the ref deserved my ire. My player (my son actually) is playing soft off the ball defense on his man, ball handler picks up his dribble and but didn't have a shot so he launched himself sideways into my player who to quite honest wasn't even looking at him, he was looking at his man. The ref calls my guy for a foul. I looked to the other ref and asked "Aren't you going to over rule him?" "Nope." I called a timeout and as the ref was walking to the scorers table I walked out on the court and said "Man I feel sorry for you." "Why's that?" he responds. Me: "Because that was the most embarrassing call I've ever seen and all these people saw it too!" T! I said "Thank you" and I walked back to my huddle apologized to my team and told them I owed them 2 points. One of the kids said "That's alright coach, they owe us a hell of lot more than that!" Bottom line, reffing is very hard and you get what you pay for. Half of my leagues refs are high school refs that ref our league on Saturdays and Sundays. Most of them are fairly good. The other half are just some Joe's that for some reason are willing to ref youth rec league games for $30 a game. Without them there would be no youth rec leagues so I give them respect too. But when they make calls or don't make calls that bring potential injuries into the equation I let them know about it. After this game several parents on the other team came up to me and told me stories about how bad that ref had been in other games they had played, which I already knew. The guys a tool and I played softball against him for years and he was a tool then. I actually witnessed him get thrown out of a softball game for intentionally throwing at runner and hitting him. That bit of back history likely played into my lack of patience because I usually have a pretty friendly banter with the refs.

 

[Cowtown]

If you're the guy in your avatar, I'd never come over to your side of the floor.

 

[HoustonCuse]

The call that had me flummoxed was I believe in the UK - Wichita St game (I could be wrong). But a charge was called. But then with no review the refs decided that the defenders left foot was inside the circle co they changed it to a made bucket and a blocking foul so they gave him an and 1. Now they could review it so were just going on each others opinion. The replay would not have overturned the original call in my opinion. It showed the right foot clearly outside the circle, the left foot...ball of the foot was on the ground outside the circle, the heel was in the air and if it had been on the ground it would have been on the circle line. In the NFL that's a catch as long as the foot doesn't ever come down on the line! I honestly don;t know what if anything it is supposed to be in college. But how do they change a foul from a charge to a block? In my opinion if they were going to change it they should have wiped out the charge, scored the bucket, no foul against Wichita St and their ball. The reason I mention the NFL is that it was the NFL ref that made the initial call and another ref changed it.

The back to back Duke players running over SC players and getting blocks call was ridiculous. SC beat more than Duke yesterday.

The block/charge was in the Duke game. They got it right because even hovering part of your foot over the charge circle counts the same as being inside the circle. That call wound up (correctly) going against Duke.

 

[cuseincincy]

The block/charge was in the Duke game. They got it right because even hovering part of your foot over the charge circle counts the same as being inside the circle. That call wound up (correctly) going against Duke.

I'm not doubting you Houston but I have a hard time believing that I was upset about a call going against Duke!

 

[ForCuseSake]

The UNC no call when their PG (Berry, I think) ran over an Arkansas defender was the worst I saw live this weekend.

It should've been a block, charge or travel. The ensuing shot clock beating tip in by Meeks was a colossal kick in the junk.

Arkansas folded like a cheap suit after that play.

 

[Cowtown]

I don't know what Collins said, but he was motioning that the Zags defender went up and through the basket. Perhaps he was T'ed up for being on the court, but let's be honest - if that was Coach K, Roy, Izzo, etc., there's no T called for simply being on the court.

I was wondering about that as well. It was likely the distance he came out, combined with the fact he was going straight at the ref.

Probably. Simply being on the court doesn't get you a T unless you're interfering with play or players, even accidentally. The coaching box is for the head coach to be in if he's yelling at the refs, but there are limits to what you can say or do there. If you're asking an intelligent question in a room temperature voice, you can be out of the box. If you jump 3 feet in the air, come down on the court yelling at the ref you're closing in on, yeah that's gonna get you one.