JB saying Frank is all league is...

[cuse10]

I’m not going to bother reading through this thread, but it’s funny that when JB criticizes a kid people go crazy. When he tries talking up a kid...people go crazy.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Only criticism this year of Frank, is that he needs to work on his handle. He's serviceable at the moment, but when he faces the slightest bit of pressure, it is easy to force a bad decision. Two things a player can work on by themselves, shooting and dribbling.

 

[iommi]

It’s up for debate whether it has to do with fast breaking off a rebound since it would be counter to having the guards come back for the ball. There’s no logic to it.

Yeah, I get that. Frank has been a key rebounder this year. Tyus has been neither a rebounder or a guy who's been effective running. Problem is, even if we leak our guards out, I'd have no faith we'd be able to run an effective break. We look lost in those situations and have for several years.

 

[Fly Rodder]

We’re not maximizing those. Our Offensive Efficiency rank is now 139 per the same site you linked. That is just not sustainable.

And Frank, Tyus, and OShae just aren't that good when it comes to 1-1- ISO ball. They're taking a lot of low-percentage shots and those misses can lead to run-outs. Thankfully, SU's offensive rebounding has been at a great rate manufacturing more possessions, but when that breaks down - big runs happen for the other team. I agree, it isn't sustainable and its going to lead to a ton of cardiac games like we've seen already. Traditionally low-possession offensive teams (VA, Wis, etc.) generally have pass heavy offenses that move the ball constantly until they find an open man resulting in high-PERs.

I'm not a HOF coach, but I don't see how minimizing the number of possessions you have and then be bad at scoring points during those fewer possessions is a sound offensive strategy. On the defensive side, they're limiting opponents possessions and blocking and rebounding well and generating TOs off of steals. But the offense is just painful to watch.

 

[SoBeCuse]

And Frank, Tyus, and OShae just aren't that good when it comes to 1-1- ISO ball. They're taking a lot of low-percentage shots and those misses can lead to run-outs. Thankfully, SU's offensive rebounding has been at a great rate manufacturing more possessions, but when that breaks down - big runs happen for the other team. I agree, it isn't sustainable and its going to lead to a ton of cardiac games like we've seen already. Traditionally low-possession offensive teams (VA, Wis, etc.) generally have pass heavy offenses that move the ball constantly until they find an open man resulting in high-PERs.

I'm not a HOF coach, but I don't see how minimizing the number of possessions you have and then be bad at scoring points during those fewer possessions is a sound offensive strategy. On the defensive side, they're limiting opponents possessions and blocking and rebounding well and generating TOs off of steals. But the offense is just painful to watch.

Yeah, it’s hard to understand. A lot of people like to mock Virginia but they are still averaging 72 points/game. Their offensive efficiency rank is 28. Baylor has lower possessions than many because they play zone as well. They are maximizing those and are at 15.

 

[81South]

How many all conference teams are there in the ACC? I could see Frank as 3rd Team. Good or bad he is part of the SU family...just try and enjoy his growth.

 

[007]

Regarding pushing the ball. Here's another thing not yet mentioned. We have some decent rebounders now (some of whom can't really pass the ball) but we still seem to send 5 to the basket to rebound defensively. If you do this, of course fast breaks will not happen. Just not possible. In order to run the break well, the two guards up top need to leak out to nearly half court. This requires the rebounder to make a great pass, or dribble a couple times and then make the pass. Clearly this cannot happen with Chukwu or Sidibe. Brissett and Moyer can do this a bit, maybe Marek can - I can't recall him doing it though.

This is why I think JB has made a conscious decision. More often than not Frank comes back to actually take the ball out of the hands of our bigs.

I understand why people think the guards need to "leak" out, but most teams do NOT run fast break offense that way. You can in fact fast break sending 5 to the boards. Watch ANY North Carolina or Kansas game. Not only do they break with 5 on the glass, then run fast breaks after MADE baskets and they are great at it.

Most teams run numbered fast breaks where each player is assigned a lane (there is some interchanging that can, and often does, happen between the 1-2 lanes, and the 3-4 lanes, but the assignments are the same). Ideally, you want to start the break with the PG. They are taught to flare to the sideline nearest the rebounbder (and above the foul line). The rebounder knows the guard is supposed to be there and is taught to pivot that way and throw the outlet as quickly as possible. The other guard must fill the opposite lane. All PGs are taught to take the ball up the side of the court after they cross half court. You are looking to create a 2 0n 1 situation. This is drilled constantly in practice. IF that doesn't open up, the 2 flares to the corner, the 3 (or next best shooter) flares to the other corner, and the 4 (or 5) fills the middle to the opposite low block. The PG then looks to drive, create, or kick to the corner. The last guy down (4 or 5) stays high and is there for a ball reversal.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I understand why people think the guards need to "leak" out, but most teams do NOT run fast break offense that way. You can in fact fast break sending 5 to the boards. Watch ANY North Carolina or Kansas game. Not only do they break with 5 on the glass, then run fast breaks after MADE baskets and they are great at it.

Most teams run numbered fast breaks where each player is assigned a lane (there is some interchanging that can, and often does, happen between the 1-2 lanes, and the 3-4 lanes, but the assignments are the same). Ideally, you want to start the break with the PG. They are taught to flare to the sideline nearest the rebounbder (and above the foul line). The rebounder knows the guard is supposed to be there and is taught to pivot that way and throw the outlet as quickly as possible. The other guard must fill the opposite lane. All PGs are taught to take the ball up the side of the court after they cross half court. You are looking to create a 2 0n 1 situation. This is drilled constantly in practice. IF that doesn't open up, the 2 flares to the corner, the 3 (or next best shooter) flares to the other corner, and the 4 (or 5) fills the middle to the opposite low block. The PG then looks to drive, create, or kick to the corner. The last guy down (4 or 5) stays high and is there for a ball reversal.

I know what UNC does. We are not UNC.

 

[007]

I know what UNC does. We are not UNC.

Right, because the point of my post was to suggest we are UNC.

I was responding to your post stating it was "just not possible" to run the break with 5 to the boards, or that the guards need to "leak out to nearly half court." I'm pointing out how most teams (college and HS) coach basic fast break offense.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Right, because the point of my post was to suggest we are UNC.

I was responding to your post stating it was "just not possible" to run the break with 5 to the boards, or that the guards need to "leak out to nearly half court." I'm pointing out how most teams (college and HS) coach basic fast break offense.

Yes, you're trying to equate UNC with most teams. I get it. I'm just trying to tell you that the team that has consistently run the best fast break in college hoops for a couple decades isn't the "average" you should be comparing other teams to. You might be on the mark with how other teams actually run their breaks, but we don't. We just don't. Whether that's because of Frank or Coach Boeheim is really the only question left to answer.

 

[realorange]

Maybe that can be one of SWC's questions for JB: Would you like to run fast breaks or are we better off slowing the game down?

 

[007]

Yes, you're trying to equate UNC with most teams. I get it. I'm just trying to tell you that the team that has consistently run the best fast break in college hoops for a couple decades isn't the "average" you should be comparing other teams to. You might be on the mark with how other teams actually run their breaks, but we don't. We just don't. Whether that's because of Frank or Coach Boeheim is really the only question left to answer.

Wrong. What I described above is BASIC fast break offense. It's not some complex concept that only teams like UNC can manage. It's run at every level of basketball from modified on up. It's what SU tries to do. If I went on to explain that the Carolina initial fast break offense involves multiple progressions based on defensive positioning, and then described their secondary fast break offense, which then transitions to the passing/motion offense, you might have a point. But I didn't.

I pointed out the basic concepts of any fast break offense. And it has next to nothing to do with leaking guys to half court.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Wrong. What I described above is BASIC fast break offense. It's not some complex concept that only teams like UNC can manage. It's run at every level of basketball from modified on up. It's what SU tries to do. If I went on to explain that the Carolina initial fast break offense involves multiple progressions based on defensive positioning, and then described their secondary fast break offense, which then transitions to the passing/motion offense, you might have a point. But I didn't.

I pointed out the basic concepts of any fast break offense. And it has next to nothing to do with leaking guys to half court.

Good stuff. So what is your opinion of what is happening in our offense? Simply being instructed not to push? We have had all sorts of responses here. We’ve had board gurus suggest that it is impossible to push it/run because our guards or Frank specifically sometimes come in to rebound. There is the theory of fatigue being a thin team. That’s a possibility. There is one of my theories that Frank is too slow and doesn’t show the proper instincts often. Obviously the kid has improved. One issue that will continue to never make sense to me is it just seems that we aren’t trying to score in easier manners before the defense gets set. That’s puzzling since our halfcourt offense is anemic and teams aren’t racing down the court to setup their D either. I don’t think they are worried at all about our transition game.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Wrong. What I described above is BASIC fast break offense. It's not some complex concept that only teams like UNC can manage. It's run at every level of basketball from modified on up. It's what SU tries to do. If I went on to explain that the Carolina initial fast break offense involves multiple progressions based on defensive positioning, and then described their secondary fast break offense, which then transitions to the passing/motion offense, you might have a point. But I didn't.

I pointed out the basic concepts of any fast break offense. And it has next to nothing to do with leaking guys to half court.

Settle down. If this was basic, then SU would run it. They don't. It's been obvious since Ennis was here that we don't run like we used to.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Good stuff. So what is your opinion of what is happening in our offense? Simply being instructed not to push? We have had all sorts of responses here. We’ve had board gurus suggest that it is impossible to push it/run because our guards or Frank specifically sometimes come in to rebound. There is the theory of fatigue being a thin team. That’s a possibility. There is one of my theories that Frank is too slow and doesn’t show the proper instincts often. Obviously the kid has improved. One issue that will continue to never make sense to me is it just seems that we aren’t trying to score in easier manners before the defense gets set. That’s puzzling since our halfcourt offense is anemic and teams aren’t racing down the court to setup their D either. I don’t think they are worried at all about our transition game.

Here's another factor to consider that shows this isn't a Frank issue, but is instructed from the HC. As 007 pointed out, running the break does not rely on getting the ball to the point guard. It would go to either of the two guards who happens to be closest. You don't see Battle pushing the break any more than Frank does, so it can't be that. The coach is likely instructing his bigs, who he clearly doesn't trust to outlet the ball to a guard successfully, to get the ball into Frank's hands as he's the one who handles the vast majority of trips over the halfcourt line.

 

[RF2044]

Here's another factor to consider that shows this isn't a Frank issue, but is instructed from the HC. As 007 pointed out, running the break does not rely on getting the ball to the point guard. It would go to either of the two guards who happens to be closest. You don't see Battle pushing the break any more than Frank does, so it can't be that. The coach is likely instructing his bigs, who he clearly doesn't trust to outlet the ball to a guard successfully, to get the ball into Frank's hands as he's the one who handles the vast majority of trips over the halfcourt line.

I'm not trying to step into the middle of this disagreement, but some of this may be related to what players are comfortable doing when they're on the court. For example, I think that we have four players who could and should look to push the ball -- our backcourt, Brissett [who has an unexpectedly good handle], and Marek. But each of those four guys has some issues / limitations that might be preventing them from pushing the ball:

• Frank doesn't seem to play at a fast pace -- he likes to set things up and keep the defender in front of him, where he can use his physique to "clear" space and put a body on guys when he drives
• Battle doesn't seem to have a great handle. He is adequate, but not a smooth guy [like what Bazley will be like next year]. He's much more comfortable taking a quick dribble or two and then using his size to get shots over smaller defenders in the lane, but not a guy who seems to have a ton of success shaking guys at this stage of his developmental curve and blowing past them
• Brissett can create off the bounce, but he doesn't look to do that much in the open floor. Inexperience?
• Marek reminds me a lot of CJ Fair freshman year. I'm not saying that they are exactly alike, just similar in the sense that they are high IQ guys that don't force and actively avoid "risky" plays that might lead to mistakes. Accordingly, they both seek to make the conservative play, but one that is mistake avoidant rather than try to do too much

I'm not sure it is as much of a "coached" to play a certain way thing as it is the attributes of the players. At least, that's what I see when I watch this team play. We rebound well enough to run, but the personnel aren't suited to playing an up-and-down game. This is something that could improve over the course of the year if a few things fall into place.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Good stuff. So what is your opinion of what is happening in our offense? Simply being instructed not to push? We have had all sorts of responses here. We’ve had board gurus suggest that it is impossible to push it/run because our guards or Frank specifically sometimes come in to rebound. There is the theory of fatigue being a thin team. That’s a possibility. There is one of my theories that Frank is too slow and doesn’t show the proper instincts often. Obviously the kid has improved. One issue that will continue to never make sense to me is it just seems that we aren’t trying to score in easier manners before the defense gets set. That’s puzzling since our halfcourt offense is anemic and teams aren’t racing down the court to setup their D either. I don’t think they are worried at all about our transition game.

We had a fast break at the end of the Buffalo game where Frank passed it to Battle and he got blocked. That wasn’t Franks fault. TBH he’s been our best finisher at the rim this year and I think it’s hard to run when the rest of the guys consistently miss shots at the basket(Brissett and Battle included).

 

[Sherman20]

Uh, many of us care. It’s important. Possessions per game is a factor and a small piece of the pie. We’re not maximizing those. Our Offensive Efficiency rank is now 139 per the same site you linked. That is just not sustainable. I think that we can all agree that getting easy baskets these days against these mid-majors has become a struggle/disappearance and an enigma. Something has to change. Before someone comes back at me with our Offensive Efficiency from last season with our many good shooters let me preface. Our offense was not pretty last year. We ran that same rinse ‘n repeat high PNR into the ground until Andrew White, Lydon, or Gillon, bailed us out with threes. Andrew White was seriously amazing here. One of the best pure shooters I’ve ever seen. The guy drilled contested shots galore and buried shots in his face/bad shots. We didn’t get any easy baskets all year. Lots of catch and chuck off of one pass if it wasn’t the high PNR nonsense. Color guys like Bilas/Fran/Lappas time and time again were saying in these games how we weren’t moving enough and standing around.

Per KenPom, our offensive efficiency is 88. Not 139. It was in the 60s before the SBU game. Not as bad as you think.

 

[SoBeCuse]

We had a fast break at the end of the Buffalo game where Frank passed it to Battle and he got blocked. That wasn’t Franks fault. TBH he’s been our best finisher at the rim this year and I think it’s hard to run when the rest of the guys consistently miss shots at the basket(Brissett and Battle included).

I remember that play. That had no chance. Perkins I think was right there to reject it.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I'm not trying to step into the middle of this disagreement, but some of this may be related to what players are comfortable doing when they're on the court. For example, I think that we have four players who could and should look to push the ball -- our backcourt, Brissett [who has an unexpectedly good handle], and Marek. But each of those four guys has some issues / limitations that might be preventing them from pushing the ball:

• Frank doesn't seem to play at a fast pace -- he likes to set things up and keep the defender in front of him, where he can use his physique to "clear" space and put a body on guys when he drives
• Battle doesn't seem to have a great handle. He is adequate, but not a smooth guy [like what Bazley will be like next year]. He's much more comfortable taking a quick dribble or two and then using his size to get shots over smaller defenders in the lane, but not a guy who seems to have a ton of success shaking guys at this stage of his developmental curve and blowing past them
• Brissett can create off the bounce, but he doesn't look to do that much in the open floor. Inexperience?
• Marek reminds me a lot of CJ Fair freshman year. I'm not saying that they are exactly alike, just similar in the sense that they are high IQ guys that don't force and actively avoid "risky" plays that might lead to mistakes. Accordingly, they both seek to make the conservative play, but one that is mistake avoidant rather than try to do too much

I'm not sure it is as much of a "coached" to play a certain way thing as it is the attributes of the players. At least, that's what I see when I watch this team play. We rebound well enough to run, but the personnel aren't suited to playing an up-and-down game. This is something that could improve over the course of the year if a few things fall into place.

I agree with each and every point you've made. That being said, I'm sure JB would agree as well, and that's likely the reason he has at least temporarily put the brakes on the fast break (see what I did there?) in favor of being sure to run a good set (one would hope). I'd love to see Frank pushing the ball and through alley oops to Brissett like the golden years of SU hoops. I'm not sure we get to see that with the current makeup of the team.

And again, how in the world did Battle get stripped on that drive to the hoop in the second half against the Bonnies? I know it looked like a foul, but he still has to maintain possession and get a shot. That killed us.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Per KenPom, our offensive efficiency is 88. Not 139. It was in the 60s before the SBU game. Not as bad as you think.

Yeah, I don’t know who is right. I was using this and not blatantly making the number up. I know Vegas is piped in to these guys.


NCAA Basketball Stats - NCAA BB Team Offensive Efficiency on TeamRankings.com

 

[rrlbees]

I understand why people think the guards need to "leak" out, but most teams do NOT run fast break offense that way. You can in fact fast break sending 5 to the boards. Watch ANY North Carolina or Kansas game. Not only do they break with 5 on the glass, then run fast breaks after MADE baskets and they are great at it.

Most teams run numbered fast breaks where each player is assigned a lane (there is some interchanging that can, and often does, happen between the 1-2 lanes, and the 3-4 lanes, but the assignments are the same). Ideally, you want to start the break with the PG. They are taught to flare to the sideline nearest the rebounbder (and above the foul line). The rebounder knows the guard is supposed to be there and is taught to pivot that way and throw the outlet as quickly as possible. The other guard must fill the opposite lane. All PGs are taught to take the ball up the side of the court after they cross half court. You are looking to create a 2 0n 1 situation. This is drilled constantly in practice. IF that doesn't open up, the 2 flares to the corner, the 3 (or next best shooter) flares to the other corner, and the 4 (or 5) fills the middle to the opposite low block. The PG then looks to drive, create, or kick to the corner. The last guy down (4 or 5) stays high and is there for a ball reversal.

Maybe I wasn’t clear to iommi because I’m not talking about frank or Tyus going to the boards. I’m simply saying no matter where frank, or sometimes Tyus is, when our bigs get a rebound, they come back to the ball/rebounder to get a simple pass. There is no indication at all that we are looking to run off rebounds.

Sitting around doing nothing this afternoon, I also decided to watch our first half over. Some have said jb is always waving his hands to run. In that first half when the cameras are on bench I saw jb do it 3 times. To be he was doing/saying it to the rebounders when Frank was 10 yards ahead of them after getting the pass.

 

[pearl31]

I remember that play. That had no chance. Perkins I think was right there to reject it.

that was after several scrums Battle was involved in, the last of which he injured himself and clearly was not moving around well afterwards - he could barely get off the ground on that attempt Perkins blocked

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Pretty sure this discussion has moved into the time where this is true -

 

[iommi]

Pretty sure this discussion has moved into the time where this is true -

Yep. I’ll just say this. Our fast break is non-existent and when we try it, we suck at it. If we don’t run with Baz and JC we never will.

 

[007]

Good stuff. So what is your opinion of what is happening in our offense? Simply being instructed not to push? We have had all sorts of responses here. We’ve had board gurus suggest that it is impossible to push it/run because our guards or Frank specifically sometimes come in to rebound. There is the theory of fatigue being a thin team. That’s a possibility. There is one of my theories that Frank is too slow and doesn’t show the proper instincts often. Obviously the kid has improved. One issue that will continue to never make sense to me is it just seems that we aren’t trying to score in easier manners before the defense gets set. That’s puzzling since our halfcourt offense is anemic and teams aren’t racing down the court to setup their D either. I don’t think they are worried at all about our transition game.

That's a good question. I think it's a combination of things. I think JB would prefer to push it when we can, unless or until we have a lead. We definitely run clock in the 2nd half of any game we have a decent lead, so we are not looking to break. I'm sure that's JB is playing the odds, knowing that our D is going to limit the number of possessions. When we are behind and looking to press, I would guess that JB wants to run offense to get a good look (can't use the 1-2-1-1 if you don't score).

It should not be hard at all to run a fast break offense given how well we rebound this year. Part of the problem with the current team is, for whatever reason, we do not react quickly enough to set up the break. rrlbees, yes part of this is because Frank is coming to the ball on a rebound, rather than flaring and pushing the ball up.

Finally, when we do break, it seems like the decision making during the break is poor or least not good. This does not fall only to Frank, our guards are not naturally good at it. This won't be a popular take, but IMO JB's teams have historically lacked in some basic fundamentals, especially on offense.