JB saying Frank is all league is...

[Trueblue25]

Put down the eggnog. We used to run for many years whether we went 6,7, or 8 deep. It’s not a personnel thing. JB just doesn’t want to run anymore.

What were these 6 and 7 deep teams? We dont have Dion Waiters out there. We dont have serviceable big men who look for the outlet pass. We dont have an outside threat to kick it back out to if the transition defense is serviceable.

This team’s limited, why put us at a further disadvantage by tiring out the guy who gets us 10-15 boards a game or the guy who’s going iso from half court for more than half the game?

Its absolutely a personnel thing.

 

[iommi]

Maybe if that was fact.

Of course it's not a fact but his handle IS dodgy and he's been subpar in advantageous fast break opportunities. I'd love for you to try to make an argument FH's handle is solid.

 

[rrlbees]

Of course it's not a fact but his handle IS dodgy and he's been subpar in advantageous fast break opportunities. I'd love for you to try to make an argument FH's handle is solid.

Why we don’t run more has nothing to do with Franks handle, good, bad or average. I think it’s average. He had the one bad game handle wise. People say he dribbles it off his feet. He doesn’t. People say he gets his pocket picked a lot, he doesn’t. Most games he doesn’t get it picked at all. Most of his turnovers are the passing variety (some are the receiving players fault) or getting stripped when going up in the lane after driving.

I’m not going to say anything you don’t know, but running, especially off rebounds, isn’t just the PG or guard.

When we steal the ball, I feel we run as much as expected. Many times I’ve seen Frank or Tyus steal the ball and we push it. Frank with the dunk the other night, Frank using that little twist move going up, Tyus off a Frank steal which was 100% a foul but the refs screwed us and should have been 2FTs. That’s a few just the other night. We run often on steals. Frank a couple times has passed when he shouldn’t or not passed when he should, but those are the exceptions and will get better with experience.

The real bulk of being a running team is off rebounds. We’re a pretty good rebounding team. So why not run more when we have pretty good athletes? JB may a couple times a game yell to push it, but that’s not necessarily a fast break nor is it a lot of possessions. The guards, mainly the PG have 2 choices on a rebound. Come back for the ball or break and receive an outlet pass. Why do Frank and/or Tyus 99% of the time come back to the rebounder? Has to be a strategic thing and direction from JB. Otherwise they’d catch hell.

So why aren’t our guards instructed to take off or at least start moving up court? Can our bigs rebound, turn and make a good, on target outlet pass? I don’t really know but seeing the youth and how we don’t do it, I’m betting they aren’t very good at it moreso than saying Frank can’t run a break.

Even with guys that could make outlets, it’s not just the PG that needs to know “how” to run a break. Spacing, angles to the basket, etc. Again experience probably hurts in general.

Bottom line is that there are many reasons we may not run a lot of fast breaks, but it’s not as simple as just saying it’s all Frank.

 

[007]

Why we don’t run more has nothing to do with Franks handle, good, bad or average. I think it’s average. He had the one bad game handle wise. People say he dribbles it off his feet. He doesn’t. People say he gets his pocket picked a lot, he doesn’t. Most games he doesn’t get it picked at all. Most of his turnovers are the passing variety (some are the receiving players faukt) or getting stripped when going up in the lane after driving.

I’m not going to say anything you don’t know, but running, especially off rebounds, isn’t just the PG or guard.

When we steal the ball, I feel we run as much as expected. Many times I’ve seen Frank or Tyus steal the ball and we push it. Frank with the dunk the other night, Frank using that little twist move going up, Tyus off a Frank steal which was 100% a foul but the refs screwed us and should have been 2FTs. That’s a few just the other night. We run often on steals. Frank a couple times has passed when he shouldn’t or not passed when he should, but those are the exceptions and will get better with experience.

The real bulk of being a running team is off rebounds. We’re a pretty good rebounding team. So why not run more when we have pretty good athletes? JB may a couple times a game yell to push it, but that’s not necessarily a fast break nor is it a lot of possessions. The guards, mainly the PG have 2 choices on a rebound. Come back for the ball or break and receive an outlet pass. Why do Frank and/or Tyus 99% of the time come back to the rebounder? Has to be a strategic thing and direction from JB. Otherwise they’d catch hell.

So why aren’t our guards instructed to take off or at least start moving up court? Can our bigs rebound, turn and make a good, on target outlet pass? I don’t really know but seeing the youth and how we don’t do it, I’m betting they aren’t very good at it moreso than saying Frank can’t run a break.

Even with guys that could make outlets, it’s not just the PG that needs to know “how” to run a break. Spacing, angles to the basket, etc. Again experience probably hurts in general.

Bottom line is that there are many reasons we may not run a lot of fast breaks, but it’s not as simple as just saying it’s all Frank.

It is certainly not all Frank's fault. The team, as a whole, is very slow to react to fast break opportunities and slow to transition from defense to offense in general.

Part of this, no doubt, is experience. Part of this is also instincts (Frank does not have great instincts as the lead guard on FBs, he does much better running the lanes). I've coached lots of kids who knew we wanted to run, but just didn't react fast enough when the opportunity was there. The opportunity to run evaporates very fast. Teams are drilled to get back on D and to stop the ball. We are great at it and it's seldom even mentioned on the board.

 

[iommi]

rrlbees I would say FH's handle is below average for a P-5 PG. It's loose. He's had his periodic struggles getting the ball over midcourt, as exhibited in the Georgetown and Buffalo games. He's absolutely had his pocket picked but it's not like it's a chronic thing. His crossover is slow too. The biggest issues with his handle are that it's not tight and it is too high. High dribblers can get away with it if they have a tight handle. Magic Johnson is one of the greatest of all time and at 6'9" had a very high dribble but he was Magic. MCW had a high dribble. Those are a couple exceptions to the rule.

FH is not a PG; he wasn't in high school. There is a reason we were the only team who recruited him as a point guard. He's having a solid year overall. Let me be clear on that. He's been a pleasant surprise. I still find him frustrating with his What turnovers, defensive lapses, etc. but that's part of who he is.

I didn't say FH is the only reason we don't run but it's certainly a factor. I don't disagree with the bulk of the rest of your post, though I will say we have forwards who can run. Oshae is very good at filling lanes and running on the break but the opportunities are not there. Bourama could run too but he can barely walk now. Not sure he can crawl at this point. It's tough to watch him so hobbled. Matt was also a very good at scoring in fast break situations at South Kent. He attacks the rim very well in unsettled situations. Marek can run too and has good hands. None of our forwards really have much of a handle though, so they rely on the guards to get them the ball in fast break opportunities. Tyus seems to go one one two too much on breaks. He's not been a good college passer or playmaker.

If we don't run next year with Bazley and Carey, then I guess we don't want to for sure. We do see JB motioning to push the ball but too often our break fizzles or our guards pull the ball out. We shall see. That said, our fast break sucks and hasn't been good since we had Dion.

 

[NKR1978]

I’m not going to bother reading through this thread, but it’s funny that when JB criticizes a kid people go crazy. When he tries talking up a kid...people go crazy.

 

[rrlbees]

rrlbees I would say FH's handle is below average for a P-5 PG. It's loose. He's had his periodic struggles getting the ball over midcourt, as exhibited in the Georgetown and Buffalo games. He's absolutely had his pocket picked but it's not like it's a chronic thing. His crossover is slow too. The biggest issues with his handle are that it's not tight and it is too high. High dribblers can get away with it if they have a tight handle. Magic Johnson is one of the greatest of all time and at 6'9" had a very high dribble but he was Magic. MCW had a high dribble. Those are a couple exceptions to the rule.

FH is not a PG; he wasn't in high school. There is a reason we were the only team who recruited him as a point guard. He's having a solid year overall. Let me be clear on that. He's been a pleasant surprise. I still find him frustrating with his What turnovers, defensive lapses, etc. but that's part of who he is.

I didn't say FH is the only reason we don't run but it's certainly a factor. I don't disagree with the bulk of the rest of your post, though I will say we have forwards who can run. Oshae is very good at filling lanes and running on the break but the opportunities are not there. Bourama could run too but he can barely walk now. Not sure he can crawl at this point. It's tough to watch him so hobbled. Matt was also a very good at scoring in fast break situations at South Kent. He attacks the rim very well in unsettled situations. Marek can run too and has good hands. None of our forwards really have much of a handle though, so they rely on the guards to get them the ball in fast break opportunities. Tyus seems to go one one two too much on breaks. He's not been a good college passer or playmaker.

If we don't run next year with Bazley and Carey, then I guess we don't want to for sure. We do see JB motioning to push the ball but too often our break fizzles or our guards pull the ball out. We shall see. That said, our fast break sucks and hasn't been good since we had Dion.

I agree all those guys can run. We’re athletic including Frank. But can we rebound, turn, and make a successful outlet? Not so sure about it. It’s why the guards don’t leak out and almost always come to the rebounder in open space to get the pass. And we can agree to disagree but I just don’t think his handle is below average nor even that high for someone 6’5.

Also, while Frank may not have been a PG, he’s improved a lot and why he gets a lot of assists on a team that can’t shoot straight nor run. Carey isn’t a point either so with the additional experience I have no doubt Frank is the PG next year also.

 

[kcsu]

I’m not going to bother reading through this thread, but it’s funny that when JB criticizes a kid people go crazy. When he tries talking up a kid...people go crazy.

If you have followed JB for long its his MO. He is a motivator. His style is actually pretty transparent but for the most part seems to work. I actually think that it was counter productive with Frank last year.

 

[iommi]

I agree all those guys can run. We’re athletic including Frank. But can we rebound, turn, and make a successful outlet? Not so sure about it. It’s why the guards don’t leak out and almost always come to the rebounder in open space to get the pass. And we can agree to disagree but I just don’t think his handle is below average nor even that high for someone 6’5.

Also, while Frank may not have been a PG, he’s improved a lot and why he gets a lot of assists on a team that can’t shoot straight nor run. Carey isn’t a point either so with the additional experience I have no doubt Frank is the PG next year also.

The ability to make an outlet is something that can be taught.

Frank has improved. Carey is a combo but yes, much more of a scoring guard. I also think Frank starts at PG. Carey could start at the 2 or maybe Hughes but either way, Carey will play significant minutes. If he doesn't start, JC could have the Dion role. JB isn't going to bring FH off the bench off this year and as a senior. Add in Buddy and HW and that's a lot of guards. I could see a scenario where Hughes plays some 3, depending on roster composition. Have to see who is back. We have a ton of guards.

 

[manleyzoo]

Handle, schmandle. Who cares? The goal is to win games and so far Frank has proven to be a gamer.

On the FB thing, there's only one stat that actually matters: Possessions per game. So far we rank 245th at 70.9 PPG down .9 from last year. There's exactly zero chance that has anything to do with anybody's handle and everything to do with how the coach wants to play. You can debate forever if Frank's handle is loose, whatever, but the only fact that matters is how many times do we have a chance to score. Right now, we have 7.4 chances less than Buffalo, which ranks 15th at 78.3. Those 7.4 chances equate to 14.8 points at minimum and 22.2 points at maximum. But there's a catch...in general, the teams that have more possessions and run up and down are from lesser leagues. So, there's your FB, have at it. For the better teams, the game is by and large a half court deal. FBs may look good but they're not the strength of power teams.

NCAA Basketball Stats - NCAA BB Team Possessions per Game on TeamRankings.com

 

[SoBeCuse]

Handle, schmandle. Who cares? The goal is to win games and so far Frank has proven to be a gamer.

On the FB thing, there's only one stat that actually matters: Possessions per game. So far we rank 245th at 70.9 PPG down .9 from last year. There's exactly zero chance that has anything to do with anybody's handle and everything to do with how the coach wants to play. You can debate forever if Frank's handle is loose, whatever, but the only fact that matters is how many times do we have a chance to score. Right now, we have 7.4 chances less than Buffalo, which ranks 15th at 78.3. Those 7.4 chances equate to 14.8 points at minimum and 22.2 points at maximum. But there's a catch...in general, the teams that have more possessions and run up and down are from lesser leagues. So, there's your FB, have at it. For the better teams, the game is by and large a half court deal. FBs may look good but they're not the strength of power teams.

NCAA Basketball Stats - NCAA BB Team Possessions per Game on TeamRankings.com

Uh, many of us care. It’s important. Possessions per game is a factor and a small piece of the pie. We’re not maximizing those. Our Offensive Efficiency rank is now 139 per the same site you linked. That is just not sustainable. I think that we can all agree that getting easy baskets these days against these mid-majors has become a struggle/disappearance and an enigma. Something has to change. Before someone comes back at me with our Offensive Efficiency from last season with our many good shooters let me preface. Our offense was not pretty last year. We ran that same rinse ‘n repeat high PNR into the ground until Andrew White, Lydon, or Gillon, bailed us out with threes. Andrew White was seriously amazing here. One of the best pure shooters I’ve ever seen. The guy drilled contested shots galore and buried shots in his face/bad shots. We didn’t get any easy baskets all year. Lots of catch and chuck off of one pass if it wasn’t the high PNR nonsense. Color guys like Bilas/Fran/Lappas time and time again were saying in these games how we weren’t moving enough and standing around.

 

[manleyzoo]

Uh, many of us “care.” It’s important. Possessions per game is a factor and a small piece of the pie. We’re not maximizing those. Our Offensive Efficiency rank is now 139 per the same site you linked. That is just not sustainable. I think that we can all agree that getting easy baskets these days against these mid-majors has become a struggle/disappearance and an enigma. Something has to change.

Sorry but I just don't get the linkage between caring about Frank's handle (whatever opposing opinions say) and easy baskets. You handle purists...smh.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Sorry but I just don't get the linkage between caring about Frank's handle (whatever opposing opinions say) and easy baskets. You handle purists...smh.

I didn’t directly. I was saying that many of us do care about whether his handle or speed (it is more speed than handle for me) is adequate enough from a lead guard on a major program.

I was simply piggybacking off of your PPG post which of course has some validity. Maybe the gurus and/or mods on here can help some of us lay people/plebeians out. It does seem that JB, seemingly after every defensive rebound, is emphatically imploring the troops to get moving. To me that makes sense since one would think an offensively challeneged team might be able to get easy/easier baskets against an unsettled defense. But, often, it does not happen and teams aren’t beating us down the floor to set their defense all the time. It’s puzzling.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Regarding pushing the ball. Here's another thing not yet mentioned. We have some decent rebounders now (some of whom can't really pass the ball) but we still seem to send 5 to the basket to rebound defensively. If you do this, of course fast breaks will not happen. Just not possible. In order to run the break well, the two guards up top need to leak out to nearly half court. This requires the rebounder to make a great pass, or dribble a couple times and then make the pass. Clearly this cannot happen with Chukwu or Sidibe. Brissett and Moyer can do this a bit, maybe Marek can - I can't recall him doing it though.

This is why I think JB has made a conscious decision. More often than not Frank comes back to actually take the ball out of the hands of our bigs.

 

[manleyzoo]

I didn’t directly. I was saying that many of us do care about whether his handle or speed (it is more speed than handle for me) is adequate enough from a lead guard on a major program.

I was simply piggybacking off of your PPG post which of course has some validity. Maybe the gurus and/or mods on here can help some of us lay people/plebians out. It does seem that JB, seemingly after every defensive rebound, is emphatically imploring the troops to get moving. To me that makes sense since one would think an offensively challeneged team might be able to get easy/easier baskets against an unsettled defense. But, often, it does not happen and teams aren’t beating us down the floor to set their defense all the time. It’s puzzling.

I've never been quite sure if JB's waving the guys on the floor to get the lard out to get in the right places to run the half court more efficiently or if he's telling them to get the effin ball up the court to look for the easier basket. I do think that as he's settled into old age, he's gotten far more conservative, obviously on defense but now equally so on offense. Personally, I find his high pick and roll offense nearly impossible to watch (is it so hard to move the ball?) but years ago I gave up that he would change it. Same with being a one-defense team, gave that one up too. But even with those boredoms, JB sure knows how to bring home a win most of the time. However, the clangs you have to endure now have turned us from years ago being one of the country's most exciting and innovative teams to a flat out bore. As Bees said, I, too, don't think that's much about the point guard as it is about the coach's view of the players, and, of course, his own risk aversion.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I've never been quite sure if JB's waving the guys on the floor to get the lard out to get in the right places to run the half court more efficiently or if he's telling them to get the effin ball up the court to look for the easier basket. I do think that as he's settled into old age, he's gotten far more conservative, obviously on defense but now equally so on offense. Personally, I find his high pick and roll offense nearly impossible to watch (is it so hard to move the ball?) but years ago I gave up that he would change it. Same with being a one-defense team, gave that one up too. But even with those boredoms, JB sure knows how to bring home a win most of the time. However, the clangs you have to endure now have turned us from years ago being one of the country's most exciting and innovative teams to a flat out bore. As Bees said, I, too, don't think that's much about the point guard as it is about the coach's view of the players, and, of course, his own risk aversion.

Good post. It could very well be more of a gesture to get them heading in the right places like you say. Regardless, it’s getting hard to watch.

 

[rrlbees]

It does seem that JB, seemingly after every defensive rebound, is emphatically imploring the troops to get moving.

That’s simply not true. It’s rare for JB to be imploring the team to fast break. Otherwise he would not have the guards going for rebounds and coming to the ball to get the ball from the rebounder. He’d have the guards leaking and the rebounders making outlet passes. The times he does yell for them to move it, it’s more to get into the offense, not to fast break. They are two different things.

 

[SoBeCuse]

That’s simply not true. It’s rare for JB to be imploring the team to fast break. Otherwise he would not have the guards going for rebounds and coming to the ball to get the ball from the rebounder. He’d have the guards leaking and the rebounders making outlet passes. The times he does yell for them to move it, it’s more to get into the offense, not to fast break. They are two different things.

Thanks for you expertise. They are two different things obviously. We can agree to disagree (as always) upon the frequency of Boeheim’s hand-prodding gesture. It happens very frequently, IMO, whether a forward grabs the rebound or if Frank grabs it. It means something. I’d like to think it is more tempo related (not necessarily a ‘fastbreak’) but apparently I’m wrong.

 

[iommi]

Thanks for you expertise. They are two different things obviously. We can agree to disagree (as always) upon the frequency of Boeheim’s hand-prodding gesture. It happens very frequently, IMO, whether a forward grabs the rebound or if Frank grabs it. It means something. I’d like to think it is more tempo related (not necessarily a ‘fastbreak’) but apparently I’m wrong.

Of course JB does the forward hand-prodding gesture quite frequently. He did it a lot during the St. Bonaventure game. In fact, I was watching the game with my daughter, who is just starting to understand basketball, and she asked me why JB kept making that motion with his hand. And of course it's imploring us to speed up the tempo. This is really up for debate?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Of course JB does the forward hand-prodding gesture quite frequently. He did it a lot during the St. Bonaventure game. In fact, I was watching the game with my daughter, who is just starting to understand basketball, and she asked me why JB kept making that motion with his hand. And of course it's imploring us to speed up the tempo. This is really up for debate?

I think some of it could be up for debate actually. He often waves his hand around and more than once I saw Frank call out a play with all 5 fingers extended. I think sometimes JB is trying to get them to run a play...

 

[rrlbees]

Of course JB does the forward hand-prodding gesture quite frequently. He did it a lot during the St. Bonaventure game. In fact, I was watching the game with my daughter, who is just starting to understand basketball, and she asked me why JB kept making that motion with his hand. And of course it's imploring us to speed up the tempo. This is really up for debate?

It’s up for debate whether it has to do with fast breaking off a rebound since it would be counter to having the guards come back for the ball. There’s no logic to it.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Regarding pushing the ball. Here's another thing not yet mentioned. We have some decent rebounders now (some of whom can't really pass the ball) but we still seem to send 5 to the basket to rebound defensively. If you do this, of course fast breaks will not happen.

Very good point. But why? We have very good frontcourt rebounding which would suggest that we should get the guards leaking out more.

 

[iommi]

I didn’t directly. I was saying that many of us do care about whether his handle or speed (it is more speed than handle for me) is adequate enough from a lead guard on a major program.

I was simply piggybacking off of your PPG post which of course has some validity. Maybe the gurus and/or mods on here can help some of us lay people/plebeians out. It does seem that JB, seemingly after every defensive rebound, is emphatically imploring the troops to get moving. To me that makes sense since one would think an offensively challeneged team might be able to get easy/easier baskets against an unsettled defense. But, often, it does not happen and teams aren’t beating us down the floor to set their defense all the time. It’s puzzling.

There is a direct correlation between Frank's dodgy handle and his lack of speed. Hard to move forward quickly and blow by guys with a wonky handle.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Very good point. But why? We have very good frontcourt rebounding which would suggest that we should get the guards leaking out more.

We need to get SWC75 to ask that question I guess. First off, if the ball is in PC's hands, no chance we can rely on him making that pass well. But I would think Marek, Moyer, and Brissett could do it and well.

I personally think it's because JB wants to make sure we secure the rebound. With the zone, you get guys shooting from farther away. Which often leads to more distance on the rebounds off the back of the iron, and hopefully into the hands of the guards or guys way out on the wings.

 

[iommi]

I think some of it could be up for debate actually. He often waves his hand around and more than once I saw Frank call out a play with all 5 fingers extended. I think sometimes JB is trying to get them to run a play...

We have plays? Kidding...not kidding. Oshae going to the elbow doesn't count. We run like three different sets.