JB Would Rather Lose His Way...

[two3zone]

The kid hasn't played a minute of college ball and you are writing him off.

Do you have days that you even like yourself?

Not writing him off but I'm not a big fan of his game and I doubt he even plays much next year.

I get more excited about players when they have more mentioned about them than their violin playing skills and a couple of "bleed orange" tweets.

Looks like a less athletic Roberson who's not as good of a rebounder but has a bit of a better shot.

I'm sorry I don't get all rah rah rah with everybody who signs their name for Syracuse and anoint them the best ever.

I don't take any offense to your post though, you and others harped on me when I said the same things about Buss, Chinoso and now Moyer.

PS: I like myself plenty.

 

[iommi]

I don't mind if Hop stays but I really want to see the coaching staff revamped.

Bring in a big man coach, bring in a guard coach and bring in a recruiter.

I'd really like to see one of the guys from the west coast, far too much talent out here for us to ignore on a yearly basis.

One concern I do have with Hop is his age. He seems quite spry for 50, how much does he have left in the tank for all of this?

I don't get your Hop age concern. What do you mean by that? And I don't think he's 50, isn't he about 45?

 

[iommi]

Not writing him off but I'm not a big fan of his game and I doubt he even plays much next year.

I get more excited about players when they have more mentioned about them than their violin playing skills and a couple of "bleed orange" tweets.

Looks like a less athletic Roberson who's not as good of a rebounder but has a bit of a better shot.

I'm sorry I don't get all rah rah rah with everybody who signs their name for Syracuse and anoint them the best ever.

I don't take any offense to your post though, you and others harped on me when I said the same things about Buss, Chinoso and now Moyer.

PS: I like myself plenty.

Moyer is not a great athlete but he brings a ton of intangibles that this team lacks. I'll take my chances with a kid with his will, heart and head. And he wants to play for this school. He's proud to be here. That counts for something when certain players on this team clearly look like they're playing for themselves.

 

[two3zone]

I don't get your Hop age concern. What do you mean by that? I don't think he's 50, isn't he about 45?

If he's 45 then never mind. Somebody said 50 earlier and I rolled with it.

I'm just saying that how much energy is a 60 year old man going to have taking cross country flights year in and year out? JB doesn't want to do it for a reason and hasn't for awhile.

 

[two3zone]

Moyer is not a great athlete but he brings a ton of intangibles that this team lacks. I'll take my chances with a kid with his will, heart and head. And he wants to play for this school. He's proud to be here. That counts for something when certain players on this team clearly look like they're playing for themselves.

All of that stuff is great, but at the end of the day it really doesn't mean anything. We've had a lot of guys come through the door that it's worked for and some it hasn't.

I want basketball players, talented basketball players. We're building a basketball team not a cheerleading squad.

 

[MSOrange]

Hop was born in 1970 according to Wikipedia. Incidentally, he has a website. I had never seen this before.

Mike Hopkins - Mike Hopkins - Syracuse University Assistant Basketball Coach

 

[orangecuse]

With probation, early entries, and a couple of recruiting misses on top of a coach who is 72 we are the sum of those parts.

On the court we have:

One combo guard who isn't that bright
One pg who is the height and weight of a middle schooler
A 23 year old stand still shooter on his 3rd school
A frosh with a bum wheel at the other guard
A bunch of 4 and 5s (one is a black hole of bad habits, 2 highly skilled, and one guy who doesn't understand his role)

It takes a lot of things to happen for a school like SU to end up in this situation

Hard to debate anything you said, other than the pg reference being the weight of a middle schooler.

That being said, JB is the captain of the ship and he's ultimately responsible for putting these deckhands and greenhorns on it. He owns this team and he has reaped what he sowed here. He stated yesterday that this team, although it feels bad, is where it deserves to be. Well, JB with his tunnel vision approach and unwillingness to adapt in any way, shape, or form this year...deserves to be right where he is as well with HIS team.

 

[iommi]

All of that stuff is great, but at the end of the day it really doesn't mean anything. We've had a lot of guys come through the door that it's worked for and some it hasn't.

I want basketball players, talented basketball players. We're building a basketball team not a cheerleading squad.

I agree.

I think he's talented. He put up huge numbers against top competition in the NEPSAC and was the best player in his state. Moyer has a lot of room for improvement. Needs to get stronger, work on his handle and his shot. He will be a solid four year player. Nothing wrong with that. Every team needs a glue guy. This team has no glue guy OR go-to guy. Moyer will be much more than a cheerleader. I have confidence that he can play at this level. He won't be a superstar. I realize that. But he will never quit like we are seeing some guys do. He will never sulk on the bench. He will never backstab his teammates or hurt us with recruits.

And Moyer is a good player. Saying he's not is off-base. If he's not great next year, he will be in a few years. And if he's not he will work his ass off to be as good as he can be.

First time he dunks in someone's face and scowls, you will be a fan.

 

[two3zone]

I agree.

I think he's talented. He put up huge numbers against top competition in the NEPSAC and was the best player in his state. Moyer has a lot of room for improvement. Needs to get stronger, work on his handle and his shot. He will be a solid four year player. Nothing wrong with that. Every team needs a glue guy. This team has no glue guy OR go-to guy. Moyer will be much more than a cheerleader. I have confidence that he can play at this level. He won't be a superstar. I realize that. But he will never quit like we are seeing some guys do. He will never sulk on the bench. He will never backstab his teammates or hurt us with recruits.

And Moyer is a good player. Saying he's not is off-base. If he's not great next year, he will be in a few years. And if he's not he will work his ass off to be as good as he can be.

First time he dunks in someone's face and scowls, you will be a fan.

And I hope I'm wrong. I may sound negative but I just go by what I see and I'll have no problem and will be very happy to be totally wrong on him.

While myself, and probably a lot of fans we have our favorite players and want them to succeed, but even the guys I'm hard on I want to succeed and make the team better. I'll never root against anybody that wears Orange and never will, but I do my best to keep my expectations balanced.

 

[pfister1]

People have lost perspective and forgotten that most players have to develop. Very few guys walk in and can be great players from the start of their freshman year.

 

[iommi]

And I hope I'm wrong. I may sound negative but I just go by what I see and I'll have no problem and will be very happy to be totally wrong on him.

While myself, and probably a lot of fans we have our favorite players and want them to succeed, but even the guys I'm hard on I want to succeed and make the team better. I'll never root against anybody that wears Orange and never will, but I do my best to keep my expectations balanced.

I can appreciate and respect that. Again, I don't think he will be hugely impactful next year other than with the intangibles, which I think are important. I've never over-valued his talent, though I admit to being a huge Moyer fan, having met him and interviewed him a couple times. His mom is awesome too and I've talked to her as well. So I am biased.

Moyer is very easy to root for but I get your perspective 100% and I respect it.

 

[iommi]

People have lost perspective and forgotten that most players have to develop. Very few guys walk in and can be great players from the start of their freshman year.

Yes, Moyer is likely to get his degree at Syracuse amd will incrementally improve. He works too hard not to get better with experience.

 

[Bayside44]

Hard to debate anything you said, other than the pg reference being the weight of a middle schooler.

That being said, JB is the captain of the ship and he's ultimately responsible for putting these deckhands and greenhorns on it. He owns this team and he has reaped what he sowed here. He stated yesterday that this team, although it feels bad, is where it deserves to be. Well, JB with his tunnel vision approach and unwillingness to adapt in any way, shape, or form this year...deserves to be right where he is as well with HIS team.

He adapted to getting two 5th year guys and made a big run at a third. I cannot answer what that was done at the expense of, but it ain't working

 

[Jack Hall]

He adapted to getting two 5th year guys and made a big run at a third. I cannot answer what that was done at the expense of, but it ain't working

I have seen the Ennis argument made how that negatively impacted the program, his early departure. I think at this point in terms of causal relationships we need to get beyond ennis and move onto Malachi leaving early. How would this team look if you could replace Gillon with Malachi or White with Malachi. I mean when youre paid the big bucks you have to anticipate these early departures but i still have to think if Mal had been here things would be very different. Oh well back to actual reality...

 

[Jack Hall]

With probation, early entries, and a couple of recruiting misses on top of a coach who is 72 we are the sum of those parts.

On the court we have:

One combo guard who isn't that bright
One pg who is the height and weight of a middle schooler
A 23 year old stand still shooter on his 3rd school
A frosh with a bum wheel at the other guard
A bunch of 4 and 5s (one is a black hole of bad habits, 2 highly skilled, and one guy who doesn't understand his role)

It takes a lot of things to happen for a school like SU to end up in this situation

I have seen a lot of bewildered fans, myself included, come on here at grasp at straws (tons of diff theories) at what the heck has happened this season. This post imo distills it down in much easier to understand form. I know no synopsis is perfect, but thank you, imo everyone should read your simple post and digest it for what it is

 

[Ghost]

I have seen the Ennis argument made how that negatively impacted the program, his early departure. I think at this point in terms of causal relationships we need to get beyond ennis and move onto Malachi leaving early. How would this team look if you could replace Gillon with Malachi or White with Malachi. I mean when youre paid the big bucks you have to anticipate these early departures but i still have to think if Mal had been here things would be very different. Oh well back to actual reality...

Unexpected departures have hurt us quite a bit - I doubt anyone argues that. If Mal comes back we're probably a better defensive squad, hopefully more cohesive on offense, but is our guard play strong enough even with that? I'm not sure - we still have the issue of Joseph departing for Creighton, and a Frank Howard that seems to have regressed in every aspect except shooting.

Obviously we're considerably better with a first round pick hanging out as our shooting guard, but do we still have a bunch of ill fitting parts? Lydon is still too slow to play the 3 or 4 in this zone. White probably isn't on the roster. What to do with Thompson and Coleman - play them and you got a crap zone again, and maybe Mali just ends up playing the 3 again anyway and we have the same crap guard situation. Who knows.....we would score a lot more though (I think).

No matter what this year would turn a bit on whether Howard could play point guard - would Mali take away enough pressure to ease him in better before his confidence was destroyed, or whatever produced his crap play? Would Battle have been able to ease into his role? Who knows. Maybe having Mali's swagger would have produced a more resilient bunch - the current group seems ready to roll over and play dead at the sound of a whistle. Which isn't ideal on a basketball court.

Ron Patterson or Kaleb Joseph might be better PG options right now. That's kind of scary, eh?

 

[orangehomer]

just mind-boggling decisions by the staff. they ran off other kids in order to get chukwu. think about that for a second. we are talking about how tough it is to manage scholarships, yet we now have two wasted years on chukwu. huge failure by the staff. chukwu will never play a meaningful minute in the ACC, unless we area 15+ loss team.

 

[Jack Hall]

Unexpected departures have hurt us quite a bit - I doubt anyone argues that. If Mal comes back we're probably a better defensive squad, hopefully more cohesive on offense, but is our guard play strong enough even with that? I'm not sure - we still have the issue of Joseph departing for Creighton, and a Frank Howard that seems to have regressed in every aspect except shooting.

Obviously we're considerably better with a first round pick hanging out as our shooting guard, but do we still have a bunch of ill fitting parts? Lydon is still too slow to play the 3 or 4 in this zone. White probably isn't on the roster. What to do with Thompson and Coleman - play them and you got a crap zone again, and maybe Mali just ends up playing the 3 again anyway and we have the same crap guard situation. Who knows...we would score a lot more though (I think).

No matter what this year would turn a bit on whether Howard could play point guard - would Mali take away enough pressure to ease him in better before his confidence was destroyed, or whatever produced his crap play? Would Battle have been able to ease into his role? Who knows. Maybe having Mali's swagger would have produced a more resilient bunch - the current group seems ready to roll over and play dead at the sound of a whistle. Which isn't ideal on a basketball court.

Ron Patterson or Kaleb Joseph might be better PG options right now. That's kind of scary, eh?

You are correct on what you say but we at least would be a little better. This team has noone who can beat their guy off the dribble AND finish. At least at the end of the season Mal figured it out and we all saw against uva how big that was. And he didn't need a true pg to set him up. He created it himself . No options like that thisyear

 

[iommi]

just mind-boggling decisions by the staff. they ran off other kids in order to get chukwu. think about that for a second. we are talking about how tough it is to manage scholarships, yet we now have two wasted years on chukwu. huge failure by the staff. chukwu will never play a meaningful minute in the ACC, unless we area 15+ loss team.

The thing about Chukwu I don't get is that other programs wanted him when he left Providence, including Kansas and Florida, I believe. And Ed Cooley was upset when PC left PC. So either we have absolutely no clue how to bring a guy like him along or he is indeed a total stiff. If it's the latter, those other teams couldn't see his total lack of talent as well? I thought he'd be serviceable. He's been in the program for quite a while. That hasn't helped?

He really looks like Cat Rescuer 2.0. Well, maybe marginally better. Unreal.

 

[Jack Hall]

The thing about Chukwu I don't get is that other programs wanted him when he left Providence, including Kansas and Florida, I believe. And Ed Cooley was upset when PC left PC. So either we have absolutely no clue how to bring a guy like him along or he is indeed a total stiff. If it's the latter, those other teams couldn't see his total lack of talent as well? I thought he'd be serviceable. He's been in the program for quite a while. That hasn't helped?

He really looks like Cat Rescuer 2.0. Well, maybe marginally better. Unreal.

I am somewhat concerned PC was brought in simply as a shot blocking specialist, ala Fab. I mean really what else did Fab do well? Well PCs not even much of a shot blocker and true to a specialist , none of his other skills have developed. But JB keeps talking about his legs. I have to think the staff thought, like his upper body, they could strengthen his legs. It never happened and JB now says it wont happen. Ut ohs

 

[Ghost]

You are correct on what you say but we at least would be a little better. This team has noone who can beat their guy off the dribble AND finish. At least at the end of the season Mal figured it out and we all saw against uva how big that was. And he didn't need a true pg to set him up. He created it himself . No options like that thisyear

Agreed. We might even be a lot better - I'm not even sure. It's hard to figure out what's wrong with some of these guys. Would Howard be better with another multi-faceted offensive option like Mali? White is one dimensional, Battle stumbled out of the gate, etc...maybe that's what propels him into a decent Sophomore outing? Or maybe this is him.

The zone would still concern me though. I'm not sure how that shakes out, but Roberson/Mali/Lydon down low is probably going to be fine, but we still likely get torched up top. Unless Mali is up top, but then we have Lydon on a wing. Ugh. I don't know - seems like the zone was destined to SUCK hard this year.

 

[two3zone]

I am somewhat concerned PC was brought in simply as a shot blocking specialist, ala Fab. I mean really what else did Fab do well? Well PCs not even much of a shot blocker and true to a specialist , none of his other skills have developed. But JB keeps talking about his legs. I have to think the staff thought, like his upper body, they could strengthen his legs. It never happened and JB now says it wont happen. Ut ohs

Second year Fab was pretty awesome. Caught every lob, finished around the basked, rebounded above average and took a mean charge. He was BE DPOY.

 

[20Plus]

Second year Fab was pretty awesome. Caught every lob, finished around the basked, rebounded above average and took a mean charge. He was BE DPOY.

I am somewhat concerned PC was brought in simply as a shot blocking specialist, ala Fab. I mean really what else did Fab do well? Well PCs not even much of a shot blocker and true to a specialist , none of his other skills have developed. But JB keeps talking about his legs. I have to think the staff thought, like his upper body, they could strengthen his legs. It never happened and JB now says it wont happen. Ut ohs

Really?

 

[two3zone]

Really?

IMO Fab was probably the most important player on that team.

 

[Jack Hall]

Second year Fab was pretty awesome. Caught every lob, finished around the basked, rebounded above average and took a mean charge. He was BE DPOY.

I agree with you, i most likely mis characterized him. But it is worth noting his dpoy was mostly based on his shot blocking and also worth noting he flamed out extremely quickly below the nba level, likely due to his attitude and lack of all around skills at the nba level