JB's 2-3 / Tarks amoeba defense

[two3zone]

Was watching an old UNLV game and noticed that they were playing an extremely active zone defense. The announcers called it a 1-1-3 but it looks almost exactly like JBs 2-3 (just a little sloppier).

I remember watching some Fresno St games when I was younger and they played the amoeba defense as well but forgot what the defense looked like. I see it now and it looks exactly the same.

Am I the only one who sees this? I mean the wings do the same thing, the center does the same thing, the only difference I see and it's not even a big one is one of the guards will play the man with the ball tighter up top.

I guess my question is, why do they bother calling it a 1-1-3, if they are calling it a 1-1-3 why do they call ours a 2-3 and why the heck don't we have an awesome name like "amoeba defense"? The Cuse hasn't played a "boring" 2-3 zone, I guess JB should make a nickname up for his zone as well. Anybody have any ideas for one?

Rip Tark, hell of a coach.

 

[Col. Bleep]

Was watching an old UNLV game and noticed that they were playing an extremely active zone defense. The announcers called it a 1-1-3 but it looks almost exactly like JBs 2-3 (just a little sloppier).

I remember watching some Fresno St games when I was younger and they played the amoeba defense as well but forgot what the defense looked like. I see it now and it looks exactly the same.

Am I the only one who sees this? I mean the wings do the same thing, the center does the same thing, the only difference I see and it's not even a big one is one of the guards will play the man with the ball tighter up top.

I guess my question is, why do they bother calling it a 1-1-3, if they are calling it a 1-1-3 why do they call ours a 2-3 and why the heck don't we have an awesome name like "amoeba defense"? The Cuse hasn't played a "boring" 2-3 zone, I guess JB should make a nickname up for his zone as well. Anybody have any ideas for one?

Rip Tark, hell of a coach.

Tark was a helluva crook.

Our 2-3 is known as the Orange Squeeze (Orange Crush was taken).
As in:
Freeze 'em, Squeeze 'em
Crush 'em to juice
You're gonna get it
When you play the 'Cuse!

 

[Jack Hall]

Was watching an old UNLV game and noticed that they were playing an extremely active zone defense. The announcers called it a 1-1-3 but it looks almost exactly like JBs 2-3 (just a little sloppier).

I remember watching some Fresno St games when I was younger and they played the amoeba defense as well but forgot what the defense looked like. I see it now and it looks exactly the same.

Am I the only one who sees this? I mean the wings do the same thing, the center does the same thing, the only difference I see and it's not even a big one is one of the guards will play the man with the ball tighter up top.

I guess my question is, why do they bother calling it a 1-1-3, if they are calling it a 1-1-3 why do they call ours a 2-3 and why the heck don't we have an awesome name like "amoeba defense"? The Cuse hasn't played a "boring" 2-3 zone, I guess JB should make a nickname up for his zone as well. Anybody have any ideas for one?

Rip Tark, hell of a coach.

I ve always thought of it as a matchup zone, ie a zone w man2man and trapping principles. I cant recall back in the day UNLV playing a (matchup/amoeba) zone like Cuse altho i do remember how great some of those Tark teams were and i also recall Temple playing a matchup zone under Chaney back in the 90s and 80s. I still think JBs zone is unique to him and when hes got the right personnel and athletes , ive never seen a better defense . Ie the way we played D against IU and Marq on the way to the FF

 

[007]

Was watching an old UNLV game and noticed that they were playing an extremely active zone defense. The announcers called it a 1-1-3 but it looks almost exactly like JBs 2-3 (just a little sloppier).

I remember watching some Fresno St games when I was younger and they played the amoeba defense as well but forgot what the defense looked like. I see it now and it looks exactly the same.

Am I the only one who sees this? I mean the wings do the same thing, the center does the same thing, the only difference I see and it's not even a big one is one of the guards will play the man with the ball tighter up top.

I guess my question is, why do they bother calling it a 1-1-3, if they are calling it a 1-1-3 why do they call ours a 2-3 and why the heck don't we have an awesome name like "amoeba defense"? The Cuse hasn't played a "boring" 2-3 zone, I guess JB should make a nickname up for his zone as well. Anybody have any ideas for one?

Rip Tark, hell of a coach.

Many teams will attack an "even" front zone (the 2-3) with an odd front alignment (typically with some version of 1-2-1-1) where the first 1 is a guard who positions at the top between the guards at the top of the 2-3. The goal for the base offense is to pinch the top of the 2-3 to open the wings and create shots or driving lanes. JB's 2-3 zone counters this by extending the forwards out from the base of the 2-3 all the way to the wings and beyond the 3 point line. This is part of what makes JBs 2-3 so unique. It is incredibly difficult to find forwards who are athletic enough and long enough to cover that amount of space that quickly without leaving huge holes in the zone. There are lot of other rotations going on as well.

Anyway, some coaches will take a traditional 2-3 zone and "stack" the guards at the top. This means that one guard positions directly in front of the other guard making it look like what you are calling a 1-1-3 in your post (typically this is really a 1-1-1-2 where the 3rd 1 in that sequence is the 5 or center). Not sure if that makes sense if you have never coached, but I could show you if I had a chalk board.

When I coached, we use to stack the guards and extend the top guard out beyond half court. It made it appear as if it was an extended man to man. That top guard would in fact play the ball man to man until the first pass. The 2nd guard of the stack would man up on the next closest guy and the forwards would "match up" with wherever the other offensive players were aligned. To the offense, this looks a man to man with the center playing free in the paint. There are a lot of different variations from there, but at some point you drop back into the 2-3. This was my version of the "amoeba" defense.

Not sure if that helps at all.

 

[jordoo]

UNLV used to press and then drop back into that amoeba defense if I recall. (much like Pitino likes to press and drop into his match-up 2-3 or trapping 2-3) UNLV also played m2m full court pressure at times and half court m2m so when they sprung the amoeba defense it was very effective. My recollection of the difference in that D to JB's 2-3 was that in some senses it was more like a 4 man zone where the 5th guy always guarded the ball closely. Obviously this results in a more hectic looking D because as the ball moves one of the 4 guys zoning has to switch to the ball and the guy who had the ball last needs to drop into his zone or passing lane. It looked much more like a 1-2-2 or a 1-3-1 or a 1-1-3 when the offense brought the ball against it because someone was always out extended to get the ball handler and the other guys flowed with the remaining offensive players.

I would add that in this day and age of 3pt shooting, which means less and less midrange, JB has extended more than ever and we look more like that amoeba because he doesn't like leaving guys unattended even when they are very deep. We also often look like a 3-2 although we are not. This happens because like 007 described the wing covers all the way out to the 3pt line and beyond when the ball swings. When this happens we have 2 guards and forward out top with our 5 and the remaining forward in back. Its not really a 3-2 though because that 3rd guy keeps switching and dropping back depending on which side the ball is on. Bilas has sometimes described it as a 4 out zone. Meaning we have 4 guys selling out on the perimeter to deter shots, penetration and passing lanes.

 

[Full_Rebar]

I think the press is the biggest difference. UNLV use to also throw out some half-court traps and mixed things up more than SU- hence the amoeba name.

 

[Jack Hall]

So not to change the subject too much but a question for the JB experts out there


In the link above of our Title win in 2003, if you fast forward to the end of the game (the ~14 min mark on the youtube video), you would see Hak missing his 2 FTs with 13 secs left in the game and SU up 3; KU takes it down and JB has the team play his trademark zone (i remember being slightly surprised at zone because KU had to have a 3) and of course then Hak has his famous block, somehow closing out from the paint. Then there is a time out w 1.5 seconds on the clock. At this point i just assumed SU would go zone again. But JB makes a great switch and goes man to man, SU basically triples the resulting shooter and the shot misses badly and JB gets his title.

My question is: forget 2003, TODAY, if we are up 3 with less than 2-5 seconds to go , does JB go zone or man to man? I assume zone but maybe the JB experts disagree

Edit sorry, i thought i was giving a link, didnt know the vid would show on the screen

 

[two3zone]

Here is the defense against Duke in 91. What got me was the way the forwards move and the same mistakes that we've seen opponents make game after game against us.

 

[Jack Hall]

Here is the defense against Duke in 91. What got me was the way the forwards move and the same mistakes that we've seen opponents make game after game against us.

Yep very similar zone but JB had his zone first before Tark!

But seriously, interesting comment in that video, Packer claims that Tark said that anytime they have to win without man2man, an asterisk should go next to the W

 

[Brooky03]

So not to change the subject too much but a question for the JB experts out there


In the link above of our Title win in 2003, if you fast forward to the end of the game (the ~14 min mark on the youtube video), you would see Hak missing his 2 FTs with 13 secs left in the game and SU up 3; KU takes it down and JB has the team play his trademark zone (i remember being slightly surprised at zone because KU had to have a 3) and of course then Hak has his famous block, somehow closing out from the paint. Then there is a time out w 1.5 seconds on the clock. At this point i just assumed SU would go zone again. But JB makes a great switch and goes man to man, SU basically triples the resulting shooter and the shot misses badly and JB gets his title.

My question is: forget 2003, TODAY, if we are up 3 with less than 2-5 seconds to go , does JB go zone or man to man? I assume zone but maybe the JB experts disagree

Edit sorry, i thought i was giving a link, didnt know the vid would show on the screen

In a situation like that, especially when you know the ball is 100% only going to one guy (Hinrich), I have no doubt in my mind Jim would play m2m and have two guys assigned to the shooter.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Funny that you mention this. Did any of you have the stomach to read those articles from this week about Vermont still crowing over their win over us in the tournament (calling it the greatest moment in the state's sporting history, btw)? In it, Brennan mentioned that Tark (who he didn't know at all) called him out of the blue prior to the game and told him the Syracuse zone wasn't all that and it can be beat and gave him a bunch of tips on how to beat it.

 

[Jack Hall]

Funny that you mention this. Did any of you have the stomach to read those articles from this week about Vermont still crowing over their win over us in the tournament (calling it the greatest moment in the state's sporting history, btw)? In it, Brennan mentioned that Tark (who he didn't know at all) called him out of the blue prior to the game and told him the Syracuse zone wasn't all that and it can be beat and gave him a bunch of tips on how to beat it.

So it was Tark who told Brennan to dribble the ball up past half court and then heave up a 29 fter? I always wondered who came up w that coaching genius, knew it wasnt Brennan

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

Many teams will attack an "even" front zone (the 2-3) with an odd front alignment (typically with some version of 1-2-1-1) where the first 1 is a guard who positions at the top between the guards at the top of the 2-3. The goal for the base offense is to pinch the top of the 2-3 to open the wings and create shots or driving lanes. JB's 2-3 zone counters this by extending the forwards out from the base of the 2-3 all the way to the wings and beyond the 3 point line. This is part of what makes JBs 2-3 so unique. It is incredibly difficult to find forwards who are athletic enough and long enough to cover that amount of space that quickly without leaving huge holes in the zone. There are lot of other rotations going on as well.

Anyway, some coaches will take a traditional 2-3 zone and "stack" the guards at the top. This means that one guard positions directly in front of the other guard making it look like what you are calling a 1-1-3 in your post (typically this is really a 1-1-1-2 where the 3rd 1 in that sequence is the 5 or center). Not sure if that makes sense if you have never coached, but I could show you if I had a chalk board.

When I coached, we use to stack the guards and extend the top guard out beyond half court. It made it appear as if it was an extended man to man. That top guard would in fact play the ball man to man until the first pass. The 2nd guard of the stack would man up on the next closest guy and the forwards would "match up" with wherever the other offensive players were aligned. To the offense, this looks a man to man with the center playing free in the paint. There are a lot of different variations from there, but at some point you drop back into the 2-3. This was my version of the "amoeba" defense.

Not sure if that helps at all.

This is a good description of match up zone as I understand it, and how JB might uses it, although without the stack to start out. I question why he drops the guards back to within the 3 pt line, there has been very little ball pressure from his zone lately, and I don't think it is just the players we have this year. He seems to wait and see who has the hot hand in a game, and then he unleashes the wings on that 1 or 2 guys he has decided to worry about the most in that particular game. That is one aspect of the match up, which shooters he decides to drape a man on when they touch it. Another is where he positions the center. You want a goalie so to speak, as the last line of defense to swat shots on penetration, but he will sometimes bring the center up to the foul line if we are getting killed by a skilled big like Sweetney used to, or Ryan Humphries, or even Amile Jefferson last year in the Dome. So another aspect of altering his zone for the preferred match up is where the C plays, on the blocks or near the foul line.

 

[supp]

Was watching an old Tark interview and, man, he sounds just like Winnie the Pooh.

 

[Jack Hall]

This is a good description of match up zone as I understand it, and how JB might uses it, although without the stack to start out. I question why he drops the guards back to within the 3 pt line, there has been very little ball pressure from his zone lately, and I don't think it is just the players we have this year. He seems to wait and see who has the hot hand in a game, and then he unleashes the wings on that 1 or 2 guys he has decided to worry about the most in that particular game. That is one aspect of the match up, which shooters he decides to drape a man on when they touch it. Another is where he positions the center. You want a goalie so to speak, as the last line of defense to swat shots on penetration, but he will sometimes bring the center up to the foul line if we are getting killed by a skilled big like Sweetney used to, or Ryan Humphries, or even Amile Jefferson last year in the Dome. So another aspect of altering his zone for the preferred match up is where the C plays, on the blocks or near the foul line.

I kind of wondered same thing about guards at the 3 pt line. I assumed it was because JB wants to force a pick/screen in a congested area where it is easy to help out on the screen. If the screen occurs higher , our picked defender is isolated and the driver can get up a head of steam before help arrives?

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

I kind of wondered same thing about guards at the 3 pt line. I assumed it was because JB wants to force a pick/screen in a congested area where it is easy to help out on the screen. If the screen occurs higher , our picked defender is isolated and the driver can get up a head of steam before help arrives?

That's a good theory. And when you have length up top like we did with Rautins, MCW, Q or silent G at times, they can play that way and still harass shooters. It takes a rare athlete who is smaller like Kaleb to do all of that effectively. Not sure what the numbers actually are, but this year seems to have been the worst I can think of for 3pt shooting defense, which is why I would have liked to see more pressure on the ball a few steps above the 3pt line.

 

[Jack Hall]

This is a good description of match up zone as I understand it, and how JB might uses it, although without the stack to start out. I question why he drops the guards back to within the 3 pt line, there has been very little ball pressure from his zone lately, and I don't think it is just the players we have this year. He seems to wait and see who has the hot hand in a game, and then he unleashes the wings on that 1 or 2 guys he has decided to worry about the most in that particular game. That is one aspect of the match up, which shooters he decides to drape a man on when they touch it. Another is where he positions the center. You want a goalie so to speak, as the last line of defense to swat shots on penetration, but he will sometimes bring the center up to the foul line if we are getting killed by a skilled big like Sweetney used to, or Ryan Humphries, or even Amile Jefferson last year in the Dome. So another aspect of altering his zone for the preferred match up is where the C plays, on the blocks or near the foul line.

Would love to watch JB really teach his zone in practice. To him it probably all seems like common sense/ its obvious. But i bet even to some seasoned coaches , JBs rotations are not intuitive at all. For that reason, no surprise to me he wound up w the Olympic team

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

Would love to watch JB really teach his zone in practice. To him it probably all seems like common sense/ its obvious. But i bet even to some seasoned coaches , JBs rotations are not intuitive at all. For that reason, no surprise to me he wound up w the Olympic team

Yes, it is much more complex than M2M to teach I think, which could explain why it is so effective. I like to look for the changes he installs at half time. Like how far out to the corner to send the wing, where to position the C in the paint. You really see the chess game between he and the other coach in the second half as both have installed their adjustments in the locker room.

 

[Jack Hall]

That's a good theory. And when you have length up top like we did with Rautins, MCW, Q or silent G at times, they can play that way and still harass shooters. It takes a rare athlete who is smaller like Kaleb to do all of that effectively. Not sure what the numbers actually are, but this year seems to have been the worst I can think of for 3pt shooting defense, which is why I would have liked to see more pressure on the ball a few steps above the 3pt line.

The zone has kind of been a mess this season. Probably tough on JB if i had to guess. Again i am just guessing, but it seemed to me we trapped much more than usual in the ND game and i wonder if it was because JB felt ND would shred this years zone w no trapping. But i thought he made an adjustment in the nd game and it worked. The duk game should be interesting because duk is a lot like ND, ie always 3-4 shooters on the court. But duk is more athletic

 

[Full_Rebar]

Would love to watch JB really teach his zone in practice. To him it probably all seems like common sense/ its obvious. But i bet even to some seasoned coaches , JBs rotations are not intuitive at all. For that reason, no surprise to me he wound up w the Olympic team

I know this won't be well-received, but it would cool to see him and Calhoun together. JB showing what the zone is trying to force the offense to do, and Calhoun talking about how he attacked it. Feelings aside, you have to admit that he often had a very good plan-guard penetration, attacking the baseline from the high post, etc.

 

[Jack Hall]

I know this won't be well-received, but it would cool to see him and Calhoun together. JB showing what the zone is trying to force the offense to do, and Calhoun talking about how he attacked it. Feelings aside, you have to admit that he often had a very good plan-guard penetration, attacking the baseline from the high post, etc.

Never met JB but unfortunately have met Calhoun more than once at a deli and the golf course (he has a house in my town, or at least he used to, not sure anymore) and he imo is a world class a hole. And the couple times i ran into him and listened to him, it struck me that i wasnt surprised that he won 3 titles, the guy just absolutely wills his way to things (there are some amazing stories out there about him and his behavior on a golf course; wouldnt surprise me if theyre true). obviously a unique tough sob

 

[HoustonCuse]

So it was Tark who told Brennan to dribble the ball up past half court and then heave up a 29 fter? I always wondered who came up w that coaching genius, knew it wasnt Brennan

Bingo. God, I freaking hate Brennan and this idea that some magical coaching genius led him to the revelation that just heaving crazy ass 30 footers was the key.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Never met JB but unfortunately have met Calhoun more than once at a deli and the golf course (he has a house in my town, or at least he used to, not sure anymore) and he imo is a world class a hole. And the couple times i ran into him and listened to him, it struck me that i wasnt surprised that he won 3 titles, the guy just absolutely wills his way to things (there are some amazing stories out there about him and his behavior on a golf course; wouldnt surprise me if theyre true). obviously a unique tough sob

He was using the will of a champion to get what he wanted in a deli? (I kid, I kid).



Reminds me of the old George Costanza line "The sea was angry that day my friends... like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."

 

[Jack Hall]

He was using the will of a champion to get what he wanted in a deli? (I kid, I kid).



Reminds me of the old George Costanza line "The sea was angry that day my friends... like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."

You know how many people a db can pass in a deli line?

But seriously i was more thinking about things he said in a charity golf event and the stories of him cheating in those types of events. At first you think the stories are exaggerated but then you look at how he went out at ucon....

Edit and also the (multiple) stories are if someone calls him on his cheating he just curses them out, if true classy guy

 

[Col. Bleep]

You know how many people a db can pass in a deli line?

But seriously i was more thinking about things he said in a charity golf event and the stories of him cheating in those types of events. At first you think the stories are exaggerated but then you look at how he went out at ucon...

Edit and also the (multiple) stories are if someone calls him on his cheating he just curses them out, if true classy guy

He's always been that way.
A friend of mine had a run in with him years ago after doing an article for the Northeastern student newspaper.
A grade A jerk.
But...I did have respect for a number of his players.
Unlike G-town...no respect for anyone ever associated with them.

 

[007]

Yes, it is much more complex than M2M to teach I think, which could explain why it is so effective. I like to look for the changes he installs at half time. Like how far out to the corner to send the wing, where to position the C in the paint. You really see the chess game between he and the other coach in the second half as both have installed their adjustments in the locker room.

Without a doubt, most coaches would tell you that teaching man is much more complex and time consuming than teaching zone. JB's zone is so effective IMO because it is aggressive; because the players in the zone, especially the forwards, are typically long, very athletic and cover extraordinarily extended areas; and because the players become so accustomed to the rotations and covers due to it being the D they practice exclusively that they are able to react to ball movement much faster than most other teams can simulate in practice.