JB's best year

[supp]

As for Thorpe, I don't blame him for that one. Not sure anyone could have foreseen that nonsense happening.

Ehh...if we weren't pretty desperate already, he doesn't get a sniff. There were warning signs. He started at PSU, then USF, and now was transferring again. He hadn't exactly shown much will to stick it out in tough situations. There may have been other signs too that the coaches were aware of that the public wasn't when they were recruiting him.

Thorpe was partially the result of sanctions, sure. But also poor roster management, questionable recruiting strategies, roster misses, and Boeheim's longer term problem of developing a bench. If he was better at developing a bench, maybe we don't need Thorpe in the first place. And if he could keep all of his bench players' heads in the game, maybe we don't lose Thorpe.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I'm surprised by the lack of respect for the '15-'16 season, especially considering the recency. Preseason JB made some hard choices, benching the starting pg, and using the frosh lightweight Lydon as the backup center. Kind of rearranged the composition of the team.

And for in-game adjustments JB showed up big time in the prime time, with the well timed trunk monkey. Besting an established coach to reach the FF. Just saw a TV show discussing VA and Bilas was mentioning they had a National championship caliber team just a few years ago.

This season isn't over and I like what has been done. But for me, this team needs some sort of run to be considered on the same level of coaching excellence as that masterful season.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Ehh...if we weren't pretty desperate already, he doesn't get a sniff. There were warning signs. He started at PSU, then USF, and now was transferring again. He hadn't exactly shown much will to stick it out in tough situations. There may have been other signs too that the coaches were aware of that the public wasn't when they were recruiting him.

Thorpe was partially the result of sanctions, sure. But also poor roster management, questionable recruiting strategies, roster misses, and Boeheim's longer term problem of developing a bench. If he was better at developing a bench, maybe we don't need Thorpe in the first place. And if he could keep all of his bench players' heads in the game, maybe we don't lose Thorpe.

I hear what you are saying, but he was a graduate of USF. We took a flyer on him just like we did with White and Gillon, both of whom had been somewhat nomadic with their careers before graduating if I recall correctly.

Agree on the rest as well.

 

[supp]

Heck his own kids are in their late teens, younger than his players. I don't think any coach nor any player considers themselves peers to the other and the need to 'relate'. Does Coach K have a succession plan in public place? Larranaga? Leonard Hamilton? Roy Williams?

Yeah but if there was a succession plan at SU, it was because Boeheim ultimately approved of it. It's hard to deny Hopkins' value to the program. This year has also shown us that he can really coach. Boeheim knew all of that. That's why he picked him. The succession plan was not imposed on him in the same way that they couldn't impose retirement on him.

 

[FrancoPizza]

My biggest concern is at what point do the higher tier guys not even answer our calls without a succession plan in place? He's an old dude. Heck, I'm 49, and he's older than my father. How in the world does he relate to kids who are my 14 year olds peers? I realize he's not the only voice they hear, but at some point we are going to have to know which direction the school is taking.

Agree. A lot will be answered by how well we recruit in 2019-2020. My concern is Bazley was kind of an unexpected windfall. We need at least one Baz type (top 25/McD) in every class going forward - and complemented by multiple top 50 players - if we're going to compete top 4 in the ACC (which I think is almost a consensus goal here). Basically, we somehow have to get back to the recruiting stretch we had in 2008-2012... only this time without Hop and a HC who is being negatively recruited against because of his age and looming retirement.

 

[tipphill]

I was a student back then and made the trip to the FF. While it was a great run with some amazing games, that team had way more talent. You could even argue they underachieved a bit during the regular season. The last two FFs were more surprising IMO.

perhaps but they were far from excellent talent. good,i would say. the difference being is that good team took down some very good to excellent teams. this team has not. i am not degrading this team at all, however we are fortunate to have gotten in.they play very good for what we have, and have gotten better.

 

[Waltdods]

I’ve always thought 2001 was one of his better jobs. We lost a lot from a really good 2000 team. Damone Brown was the only returning starter. Shumpert was 6th man the previous year. Williams and Griffin were bench guys that had their moments. Nowadays that’s considered having a decent amount of talent back, but not in 2001. And we had little after those 4 guys. No bench, and Billy Celluck/Jeremy McNeil started at center.

Going 25-9 was a great job with that team.

1991-92 as well. Dave Johnson was a returning star, Autry returning starter. Guys like Hopkins and McRae role players. In that era, they weren’t expected to be very good but they won their 20+ and were a bad call away from being in the sweet 16.

I wrote the same thing on the '01 team last night then my phone ate the message and I gave up. But strongly agree - that 01 team has always been the quintessential Boeheim team to me. No NBA players, barely a bench, and significant minutes to Billy Celcuk, and still an excellent, always competitive team. Damone and Shump were excellent college players who turned into legit offensive threats despite significant limitations.

 

[Waltdods]

I don’t know that we have any NBA players, let alone 2 or 3. I think Battle will get a look, and Brissett has the potential to become an NBA player. Neither is a sure thing. They could very well be “NBA players” the same way LeRon Ellis, Kris Joseph, Andy Rautins, and Damone Brown were. I don’t see Frank making it.

Agree on Howard and more or less on Battle.

I think you're selling Brissett short. Just looking at the three guys you listed who actually played at SU as a frosh, none were nearly in Brissett's league. Rautins barely played until his fourth year in the program. Damone had a 26/13/1 as a freshman. For the season. Brissett had a 25/14/2 as a freshman, in one game, at Georgetown. Joseph was the best of the three as a freshman, and he just averaged 3.4 points and 2.3 boards. None of them were asked to be the second/third option on a three option team.

Brissett is really good. His main weakness right now is finishing at the rim, but I think that's mostly strength and experience, both of which can be improved.

 

[ORRange]

I agree and let me make this clear: I am not adopting the Jim Boeheim mythology that people like Townie espouse. TT, not being abole to recruit a serviceable point guard since Tyler Ennis, the sanctions. I think he owns all that.

But I'm not in a hurry to find his successor. In the long run we'll probably be OK. But theres a very real possibility that things will get quite a bit worse before they get better.

"But theres a very real possibility that things will get quite a bit worse before they get better".

Why would you possibly think that? Sanctions are almost behind us. JB has a very good class coming in. JB can now recruit who he wants and believes he can land. Hop sure must've had a ton of input in the 2017 fiasco. When our offers first came out it looked like a McDonalds All American roster. Talk about over shooting one's bounds. Bamba,Diallo,Duval,Knox ,Richards,Porter etc just to name a few. Those are not the types of recruits we usually go after. Wasting time on them put us behind the eight ball. 2019 looks very promising. I don't envision things will get a bit worse at all. We are going to be better than OK.

 

[HOFCeluck]

"But theres a very real possibility that things will get quite a bit worse before they get better".

Why would you possibly think that? Sanctions are almost behind us. JB has a very good class coming in. JB can now recruit who he wants and believes he can land. Hop sure must've had a ton of input in the 2017 fiasco. When our offers first came out it looked like a McDonalds All American roster. Talk about over shooting one's bounds. Bamba,Diallo,Duval,Knox ,Richards,Porter etc just to name a few. Those are not the types of recruits we usually go after. Wasting time on them put us behind the eight ball. 2019 looks very promising. I don't envision things will get a bit worse at all. We are going to be better than OK.

Post Boeheim.

 

[moqui]

Given the talent on hand, the front court youth and inexperience, the defections, the injuries, be they season ending, nagging and/or debilitating, the schedule as well as the fatigue, both mental and physical, this result is, in my mind, extraordinary.

i think this overstates it. this team came into the season with a lot of talent. the injuries and departures certainly hurt, but still, i think of this year as a disappointment. not putting that on boeheim, who did a good job keeping it all together. he & his players rose to the challenge, but for such a young team, there was not as much individual player improvement throughout the season as one would hope.

 

[SoBeCuse]

It’s such a bizarre season. I think JB has done a very good job or whoever it is keeping the faith and having the kids playing pretty much very hard no matter what. I credit the players a TON. I’m sure it hasn’t been easy and fun for a myriad of reasons I’ll choose not to get into. But, just to be in the Tournament (regardless of Dayton) I think is SO positive. Nobody needs to be lamenting another NIT.

It’s not a talented team and the Zone gets us some wins by default due to unfamiliarity/frustration/falling into the passing back & forth trap. It’s going to come in handy tomorrow if we can score. Our big three is solid but they have just as many weaknesses as strengths. Two potential NBA Draft players but nobody who is a lottery-type talent. Maybe Brissett after NEXT year! Lots of teams play 3 on 5. That excuse doesn’t hold a lot of water to me. It’s THIS specific system where 3 on 5 is tough and the ability to not score in the post hurts as well. If you’re a real system oriented (offensive) team there are many examples of teams who play 3 on 5. The others players just pass, handle the ball, or screen more or better than what happens here. When you just literally play ISO, scrap most plays, run that damn HPR with Chukwu, and just tell our big three to make something happen; that’s no genius at work.

But, JB pretty much maxed out everything he could’ve pulled out of these players and that’s quite something. From a physical standpoint especially. I can’t even imagine how taxing it must have been. I don’t even know how poor Paschal does it playing so many minutes especially being summoned SO much for ball screens. It seems to be a very nice group of players. I’ve been often branded and scolded as some hater or whatever. Well, I have my Dayton ticket so get off MY lawn. LGO!

 

[bozophobe]

True... But Lonnie Kruger on down all seem to be in good health and probably have healthy retirement accounts. Any FA in their right mind would advise them to hold off until 70 on SS bennys.

For some, taking SS at 65 or even 62 is a vastly better choice (or the only one).

 

[tbonezone]

what coaching ? no subs. same old defense .no offensive sets. dude sat on the bench and collected a check !

 

[Waltdods]

i think this overstates it. this team came into the season with a lot of talent. the injuries and departures certainly hurt, but still, i think of this year as a disappointment. not putting that on boeheim, who did a good job keeping it all together. he & his players rose to the challenge, but for such a young team, there was not as much individual player improvement throughout the season as one would hope.

I know you were high on this team coming into the season. But I’m not sure what more could have reasonably been expected from the guys on this roster.

Howard exceeded any reasonable expectations. Battle i would say matched (quite high) expectations. Brissett was better than any non-Carmelo frosh could be expected to be. Sidibe is better than I expected though the injury was a real downer. Chukwu is incrementally better than he was last year, though I’m not sure there was much reason to expect more than that. Dolejaz struck me as about what you expect from a late signee from Eastern Europe, and I thought he improved noticeably as the year went on.

Moyer was disappointing. Thorpe was certainly a major disappointment. And Thompson too. Washington is probably an incomplete.

Where do you disagree here?

 

[longtimefan]

I was a student back then and made the trip to the FF. While it was a great run with some amazing games, that team had way more talent. You could even argue they underachieved a bit during the regular season. The last two FFs were more surprising IMO.

I don't think they underachieved. Look at the top of the BE that season--UConn with Ray Allen, etal., GTown with Allen Iverson, etal, and Nova with Kerry Kittles, etal.

 

[moqui]

Where do you disagree here?

with this for one

Howard exceeded any reasonable expectations

i had been led to believe that frank, oshae & sidibe were all going to surprise well on the upside

 

[ORRange]

Post Boeheim.

OK. My bad.

 

[Waltdods]

with this for one


i had been led to believe that frank, oshae & sidibe were all going to surprise well on the upside

It seems to me that both did? I mean Howard was a guy many of us wanted to run off the team. My recollection is that you were (rightly it turns out) on the other side of this before the season. But still. Howard was at times the best player on this team, was a much improved shooter, and seemed to be a team leader. I have a hard time seeing how even an optimist could have imagined more from him given what we knew.

Brissetts inexplicable skill at missing layups complicates any analysis of what he did this year. But he was probably the best su freshman since 2007-08, depending on how you rate ennis. Could we really have expected something more from a top-40 recruit than an elite rebounder who could score from everywhere on the floor except at the basket?

Sidibes injury did hurt. If he was healthy all year you could imagine him being the fourth option the team desperately needed. (Although you can count on zero hands the number of offensively capable freshman centers Syracuse has had in the last 30 odd years.)

 

[OrangeDW]

what coaching ? no subs. same old defense .no offensive sets. dude sat on the bench and collected a check !

 

[Day2]

I don't think they underachieved. Look at the top of the BE that season--UConn with Ray Allen, etal., GTown with Allen Iverson, etal, and Nova with Kerry Kittles, etal.

I only said a bit. We had some bad losses on the road and should have beat Nova at home.

 

[CusefanATL]

For some, taking SS at 65 or even 62 is a vastly better choice (or the only one).

Not if your healthy and wealthy

 

[OttoMets]

i think this overstates it. this team came into the season with a lot of talent. the injuries and departures certainly hurt, but still, i think of this year as a disappointment. not putting that on boeheim, who did a good job keeping it all together. he & his players rose to the challenge, but for such a young team, there was not as much individual player improvement throughout the season as one would hope.

Yeah, that's more or less how I feel. Not a criticism of Boeheim, but this wasn't a good year or a bad year, it was just a year in which they mostly beat the teams they should and lost to the teams they should with a depleted group of players.

 

[Sherman20]

Agree. A lot will be answered by how well we recruit in 2019-2020. My concern is Bazley was kind of an unexpected windfall. We need at least one Baz type (top 25/McD) in every class going forward - and complemented by multiple top 50 players - if we're going to compete top 4 in the ACC (which I think is almost a consensus goal here). Basically, we somehow have to get back to the recruiting stretch we had in 2008-2012... only this time without Hop and a HC who is being negatively recruited against because of his age and looming retirement.

But that’s not how Villanova or Virginia is recruiting (or even Purdue for that matter) and they seem to be doing just fine. Syracuse will continue to recruit and land top 100 players, including some McD’s AAs, and will continue to thrive. But we don’t need to hit some specific recruiting formula related to these arbitrary and subjective ratings. Brissett wasn’t even a top 100 player in most rankings because he played in Canada.

 

[FrancoPizza]

But that’s not how Villanova or Virginia is recruiting (or even Purdue for that matter) and they seem to be doing just fine. Syracuse will continue to recruit and land top 100 players, including some McD’s AAs, and will continue to thrive. But we don’t need to hit some specific recruiting formula related to these arbitrary and subjective ratings. Brissett wasn’t even a top 100 player in most rankings because he played in Canada.

Are you serious?

Villanova and Virginia do not require NBA iso talent for their system to work. We do. We need those top 15 classes on a regular basis if we're going to compete with the top of the ACC. We put together a string of such classes and that led directly to JB's 2nd golden era.