Kaleb Joseph, Frank Howard, Chinonso Obokoh, who steps up?

[Dave85]

Kaleb Joseph, Frank Howard, and Chinonso Obokoh. We need one of these guys to step up and contribute at a higher level. At this point, based on what I've seen, I think Howard has the best chance to garnish some playing time. KJ and CO seemed challenged at this point. Howard needs to get really good playing defense so he can get more PT.

 

[OrangeYaGladi]

It won't be CO.

Frank needs some extended run to prove his worth to JB.

I still believe Joseph can provide 10-15 viable minutes.

 

[Dave85]

It won't be CO.

Frank needs some extended run to prove his worth to JB.

I still believe Joseph can provide 10-15 viable minutes.

KJ is the new Cooney. It will be a very long time for him to dig his way out of the hole he created. It will take at least two perfect games in a row. He needs to stop shooting and just play good defense. The only thing he should be doing on offense is driving to the basket for a layup or an attempt to get fouled. I don't think I've seen him make a shot yet this season.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I say all of them. KJ is a quality player. Certainly capable of more than he showed in the Bahamas. Frank also clearly has great passing skills and seems very comfortable with the ball. CO can provide minutes at center and at the least can provide 5 fouls. JB has to find a way to get at least 5 - 7 minutes a game out of the kid.

 

[NineOneSeven]

None, unfortunately. Six man rotation all season.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Howard is going to be the guy that we're begging to get more run all season. If JB could give him some rope, this would be our best chance to field a 7-man rotation. If after 2 years we're still waiting for the light bulb to go off for a player (e.g. KJ), there's a very good chance the filament is dead. KJ for whatever reason just doesn't have it at this level.

 

[orangefan13]

I am going to quote one of the board elders on this one.
Chinoso becomes the .5 guy and and KJ or Howard are working to become the 7th man.

As we have seen with some years past the 7th 8th and .5 men change game by game. Some have 2-3 .5 men others have a true 7th or 8th.

Reminds me of some life lessons.
A food like Kale takes alot of experience to cook with. It is full of salt but but takes a high IQ and extra time spent memorizing to cook to a benefit. Otherwise its the most salty food on the shopping roster but has no direction.

White Hot's and Frankfurters go together well. Its easy to bounce back and rebound from a long weekend when you are out shopping with the family and one of them assists you scoring in the grocery lane by picking up these two.

You can order the coaches hidden cookbook on amazon.com

 

[pearl31]

None, unfortunately. Six man rotation all season.

Nope

 

[RF2044]

Nah. After these next two games, we'll have five games to figure out if one or both of the guards can insert themselves into the rotation.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Kaleb Joseph, Frank Howard, and Chinonso Obokoh. We need one of these guys to step up and contribute at a higher level. At this point, based on what I've seen, I think Howard has the best chance to garnish some playing time. KJ and CO seemed challenged at this point. Howard needs to get really good playing defense so he can get more PT.

First, I don't know that we "need" one of those guys to step up. The versatility of the top 6 can cover most foul problems. And the idea that kids can't continue to play 40 min a night, is kind of a myth. We just finished playing 3 games in 3 days with 6 players, and our guys looked plenty fresh at the end. We won't get any more condensed games than that.

There now seems a pretty steep drop off from the top 6 to number 7. Seems to me that the roaring success of the Lydon at 5 experiment has now capped Chino to foul filling minutes in the first half and emergency fill-in at end of games. Chino seems like a good guy and I hope he sticks around but I don't expect to see more than 5-10 mpg's of court time the rest of his stay.

It would be nice to see KJ2 and FH get time and produce. I consider that more long term developmental than a need for this year. Minutes in big games are going to 5th year seniors.

 

[RF2044]

First, I don't know that we "need" one of those guys to step up. The versatility of the top 6 can cover most foul problems. And the idea that kids can't continue to play 40 min a night, is kind of a myth. We just finished playing 3 games in 3 days with 6 players, and our guys looked plenty fresh at the end. We won't get any more condensed games than that.

There now seems a pretty steep drop off from the top 6 to number 7. Seems to me that the roaring success of the Lydon at 5 experiment has now capped Chino to foul filling minutes in the first half and emergency fill-in at end of games. Chino seems like a good guy and I hope he sticks around but I don't expect to see more than 5-10 mpg's of court time the rest of his stay.

It would be nice to see KJ2 and FH get time and produce. I consider that more long term developmental than a need for this year. Minutes in big games are going to 5th year seniors.

Players wear down over the course of the year playing such heavy minutes [see: Rakim Christmas last year]. We definitely need another player--prefereably one of the backcourt guys [or both] to develop. That isn't a long term developmental need -- it's a this year need.

That doesn't mean we can't win a lot of games with just 6, but it makes our margin a lot thinner, and puts a lot of pressure on the guys in the top 6 to produce at a high level every single game. It also means that you're locked into those players even when they're having a poor game, when they get injured, etc.

We need 7.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Players wear down over the course of the year playing such heavy minutes [see: Rakim Christmas last year]. We definitely need another player--prefereably one of the backcourt guys [or both] to develop. That isn't a long term developmental need -- it's a this year need.

That doesn't mean we can't win a lot of games with just 6, but it makes our margin a lot thinner, and puts a lot of pressure on the guys in the top 6 to produce at a high level every single game. It also means that you're locked into those players even when they're having a poor game, when they get injured, etc.

We need 7.

I think the "players wear down" is a myth. I don't know what you're talking about with Rakim. And small sample size anecdotes don't matter much anyways.

I just think with such a drop off to #7, you're not seeing them in big games, doesn't make sense.

So for this year I could see the case being made that it is more important for Cooney and company to learn how to pace themselves than it is for KJ2 to get 5 mpgs.

 

[Dave85]

Players wear down over the course of the year playing such heavy minutes [see: Rakim Christmas last year]. We definitely need another player--prefereably one of the backcourt guys [or both] to develop. That isn't a long term developmental need -- it's a this year need.

That doesn't mean we can't win a lot of games with just 6, but it makes our margin a lot thinner, and puts a lot of pressure on the guys in the top 6 to produce at a high level every single game. It also means that you're locked into those players even when they're having a poor game, when they get injured, etc.

We need 7.

We need 7 but knowing JB historically I bet we see the same 6 that played in UConn and Texas all year. Especially when we start losing a game. As soon as we are behind in the score do not expect JB to waiver his 6 unless we see foul trouble.

 

[Dave85]

I think the "players wear down" is a myth. I don't know what you're talking about with Rakim. And small sample size anecdotes don't matter much anyways.

I just think with such a drop off to #7, you're not seeing them in big games, doesn't make sense.

So for this year I could see the case being made that it is more important for Cooney and company to learn how to pace themselves than it is for KJ2 to get 5 mpgs.

I wish KJ2 played better this year. Maybe he just practices too hard and wants it so much that he ends up with performance anxiety.

 

[Cusefan0307]

FWIW the third guard probably only needs to play as much as Cooney did behind MCW and Triche in 12-13. My money is on Howard.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I think the "players wear down" is a myth. I don't know what you're talking about with Rakim. And small sample size anecdotes don't matter much anyways.

I just think with such a drop off to #7, you're not seeing them in big games, doesn't make sense.

So for this year I could see the case being made that it is more important for Cooney and company to learn how to pace themselves than it is for KJ2 to get 5 mpgs.

I really don't think it is a myth. Cooney is my prime example. He has been all-world in November/December in his career and then his production bleeds off. It is not competition level because we have played in Tier 1 holiday tournaments during his career. It is wear and tear. We absolutely need at least 5-7 minutes each out of the three players listed in order to maximize our success. Exacerbating factors exist this year too: we are playing at a faster pace, teams are playing at a faster pace against us, and there is one fewer timeout this year.

 

[RF2044]

I think the "players wear down" is a myth. I don't know what you're talking about with Rakim. And small sample size anecdotes don't matter much anyways.

I just think with such a drop off to #7, you're not seeing them in big games, doesn't make sense.

So for this year I could see the case being made that it is more important for Cooney and company to learn how to pace themselves than it is for KJ2 to get 5 mpgs.

It isn't a myth at all. You don't know what I'm talking about with Rakim? He was GASSED at the end of last year. Go back and watch some of our games from the end of the season and see for yourself.

A season isn't just a bunch of indivdual games. It is a marthon, not a sprint. Just wait until somebody gets a nagging injury or goes into a multi-game cold streak, and we'll wish that we had other players who were capable of being counted on to contribute. Playing six isn't a formula for sustained high quality play throughout the course of the season.

It makes perfect sense in that even a few minutes of quality contributions / rest per half can pay dividends for the principals that the team relies upon to produce.

 

[orangefan13]

It isn't a myth at all. You don't know what I'm talking about with Rakim? He was GASSED at the end of last year. Go back and watch some of our games from the end of the season and see for yourself.

A season isn't just a bunch of indivdual games. It is a marthon, not a sprint. Just wait until somebody gets a nagging injury or goes into a multi-game cold streak, and we'll wish that we had other players who were capable of being counted on to contribute. Playing six isn't a formula for sustained high quality play throughout the course of the season.

It makes perfect sense in that even a few minutes of quality contributions / rest per half can pay dividends for the principals that the team relies upon to produce.

This is a great point and maybe something for the staff to consider.
Gbinije was averaging 17.7 points and 4.8 assists per game duing a acc stretch that fell down to like 12 and something the last 6 games as well.

Look at Cooney and Fairs rough stretch late 2 years ago, and the year before.
We then heard Cooney was on the p90x drill instructer shooting routine, now he is bicycling marathons before games.

Don't quote me on this but last years season kind of died out at the end with nothing to play for it is possible we were playing our younger guys and asking them to do more.

Excellent post RF! The coaches have been coaching for 40 years some of them others nearly 20 they know a hell of a lot more then we do. But someone should bring this up to them it could be in the teams best interests.

I don't know what its worth but Coach JB and Hopkins have coached the NBA olympic teams but these kids are all not built to run that. They have 20 year old bodies not 30.

 

[AlaskaSU]

I am not aware that Rak,s production declined. cooney is an outlier given his constant motion at the two guard. i can see a wide body or a cooney wearing down, but most players can handle playing about 2.5 games a week.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

It isn't a myth at all. You don't know what I'm talking about with Rakim? He was GASSED at the end of last year. Go back and watch some of our games from the end of the season and see for yourself.

A season isn't just a bunch of indivdual games. It is a marthon, not a sprint. Just wait until somebody gets a nagging injury or goes into a multi-game cold streak, and we'll wish that we had other players who were capable of being counted on to contribute. Playing six isn't a formula for sustained high quality play throughout the course of the season.

It makes perfect sense in that even a few minutes of quality contributions / rest per half can pay dividends for the principals that the team relies upon to produce.

If there were really such a cumulative effect of games like a marathon I think you would see a lot more time off from practice during the season.

I don't think JB plans on playing 6 throughout the season. It's just that to me, the importance of the play of #7 is minimal for this season. The gulf between 6 and 7 seems extremely wide and that in big games the performance of the top 6 are what will matter.

Of course if someone gets hurt we are going to have problems. Playing KJ2 or whomever for an additional 5-10 mpg isn't going to change that.

 

[RF2044]

If there were really such a cumulative effect of games like a marathon I think you would see a lot more time off from practice during the season.

I don't think JB plans on playing 6 throughout the season. It's just that to me, the importance of the play of #7 is minimal for this season. The gulf between 6 and 7 seems extremely wide and that in big games the performance of the top 6 are what will matter.

Of course if someone gets hurt we are going to have problems. Playing KJ2 or whomever for an additional 5-10 mpg isn't going to change that.

It will help them not get worn down, and it could impact in-game performance.

I get what you're saying, but it sounds like lip service to me. You won't find too many examples out there at any level of teams playing 6 and having sustained success [outside of Hoosiers]. It just doesn't happen often. I get that there are a few outliers, but there is a reason that most coaches play 7 or more.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

It will help them not get worn down, and it could impact in-game performance.

I get what you're saying, but it sounds like lip service to me. You won't find too many examples out there at any level of teams playing 6 and having sustained success [outside of Hoosiers]. It just doesn't happen often. I get that there are a few outliers, but there is a reason that most coaches play 7 or more.

I think JB will play 7 most games. Chino could get some time in the first halves as foul maintenance for DC2 and TL. And either KJ2 or FH should garner some time as the 3rd guard, especially in easier games.

I just don't think any of them are keys to this years performance. And I think in the big games the rotation will shrink and it will be more about the big 6.

And I don't think JB gives much credence to the worn down thing.

 

[RF2044]

I think JB will play 7 most games. Chino could get some time in the first halves as foul maintenance for DC2 and TL. And either KJ2 or FH should garner some time as the 3rd guard, especially in easier games.

I just don't think any of them are keys to this years performance. And I think in the big games the rotation will shrink and it will be more about the big 6.

And I don't think JB gives much credence to the worn down thing.

Now you're moving the goal posts.

Nobody ever said they were the "keys to this years performance." I have seen people say that a 7 player rotation with the 7th guy being one of the two backcourt guys would help the team be more successful this year.

 

[jncuse]

I don't think he will add them to his rotation, and will just spot those 3 minutes as needed. They may get a few more minutes in the next few weeks, but as soon as JB feels any threat (start of the ACC season) he will go back to rare minutes for each. We may play a 7-8th man a 2-3 minutes a game, but that is still a 6 man rotation. My guess is the only way one of them gets consistent rotational minutes is via injury.

I personally am not a big fan of large rotations, but 6 is too small . I think a good 7 man rotation is ideal (familiarity and rhythm), with an 8th player that is capable of stepping into the rotation in case of injury.

I think we can actually handle 6 -- but injuries scare the crao out of me.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Now you're moving the goal posts.

Nobody ever said they were the "keys to this years performance." I have seen people say that a 7 player rotation with the 7th guy being one of the two backcourt guys would help the team be more successful this year.

I'm not moving the goal posts, the OP said "We need one of these guys to step up". I'm saying, "ah, no, we really don't".

When JB played Lydon early on at center he was sending us down a risky and exciting path. Now any minutes to Chino look pretty much non-consequential. Any minute given to Chino over Lydon at center seem wasted. We need Lydon to figure out the center position as quickly as humanly possible. Chino is potentially down to foul filling first half minutes - and even then it might be a teachable moment for Lydon against say a Colgate.

It would be nice to see a backup guard play better. Not IMO "needed" but nice to build on. But I doubt they would see much time regardless when you have two 5th year seniors, character, team guys, playing ahead of them.