KJo II

[RF2044]

How can you have Autry clearly ahead of guys like Jonny & Scoop? I think its a bit of remembering the past more fondly than it was. I love your insights and respect your knowledge and posting but you may want to look at what Red's career again.

1.5 - 1 assist to turnover rate, 41.6% FG, 33.3% 3PT, 1.8 steals, 3.8 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 12.7 points, 33.4 minutes (RED)
2 - 1 assist to turnover rate, 45.5% FG, 35.4% 3PT, 2 steals, 2 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 9 points, 24.9 minutes (SCOOP)
2 - 1 assist to turnover rate, 45.9% FG, 33.3% 3PT, 1.5 steals, 2.7 rebounds, 6 assists, 16.6 points, 36.5 minutes (JONNY)

Obviously Red was the best rebounder and probably the bets defender of the 3 but Jonny and Scoop shot it better and took care of the ball better. If you look at minute per game you see that Scoop would have likely put about the same points and assists numbers per up that Red did if he player another 8.5 minutes. I know numbers do not tell the whole story and I didn't just realized I left of FT% which I'd bet Scoop was the lowest on. I know Jonny was an excellent FT shooter and my recollection of Red was that he too was excellent, both probably close to 80% or so.

Autry's senior year he was fantastic. In my opinion, he was the best lead guard in the country that year [and that includes Jason Kidd]. Had Cal not gotten upset by Wisconsin-GB in the NCAA, Autry would have had a chance to prove that in the second round.

Scoop was a very solid player, but not quite on the level of some of the elites. Big fan of his, though. But I'd put several players [including Jason Hart] above him on the list.

I'm not as high on Jonny as others, perhaps unfairly, but I do think he was the top pure athlete we've had play the position [with Michael Lloyd also being in that conversation].

But I digress. Red's senior year, he was pound for pound better than looking at his career stats in aggregate. In terms of shooting, keep in mind that Red played at a time before there was so much of a concerted emphasis on the three point shot like there is today.

Again, JMO.

 

[jordoo]

Autry's senior year he was fantastic. In my opinion, he was the best lead guard in the country that year [and that includes Jason Kidd]. Had Cal not gotten upset by Wisconsin-GB in the NCAA, Autry would have had a chance to prove that in the second round.

Scoop was a very solid player, but not quite on the level of some of the elites. Big fan of his, though. But I'd put several players [including Jason Hart] above him on the list.

I'm not as high on Jonny as others, perhaps unfairly, but I do think he was the top pure athlete we've had play the position [with Michael Lloyd also being in that conversation].

But I digress. Red's senior year, he was pound for pound better than looking at his career stats in aggregate. In terms of shooting, keep in mind that Red played at a time before there was so much of a concerted emphasis on the three point shot like there is today.

Again, JMO.

I agree that Red had a great senior season: 16.7 points, 6.1 assists, 4.8 rebounds 45%FG 37%3PT all career bests! 183assisst to 115 turnovers however which on the board these days would be picked apart like crazy. His great senior season also puts into perspective that the rest of his career was not great when compared to a lot of our other PG's. Give Jonny 4 years as a starter for instance and he'd have broken Sherm's mark for assists.

Jonny as a sophomore put up very similar numbers: 16.6 points, 6 assists, 2.7 rebounds, 46%FG, 31.7%3PT. 254assists to 129 turnovers. Obviously the big difference is that Red shot much better from 3 and was a better rebounder but he was a 4th year starter and Jonny as a sophomore was clearly a more proficient distributer and just as good a scorer. Agreed about Jonny being perhaps the best athlete we've had at PG although you can't deduct points for that ;-) and MCW is close athletically. I remember going to the @ Seton Hall game when Jonny was a freshman and he actually caught and finished a backdoor baseline lob from Donte. One of my biggest impressions from that game was that Jonny was by far the smallest but most athletic guy on the court. The other was that Kong absolutely owned the defensive glass in the first half. He must have gotten every miss that came his way.

Scoop is a harder guy to rate because as a Senior he was splitting time with Triche and Dion in a loaded backcourt but IMO I feel fans under rate Scoop more than any of our PG's

Thanks for the response.

 

[RandygoCuse]

I think I would have Flynn and MCW in the top tier. I base it on how they were at their peak, not averaging out their careers. Also, I try never to use per-so-many-minutes stats - I think it should be based on actual production, not projected production. Ennis could be first tier in my mind too, but he's borderline.

 

[jordoo]

I think I would have Flynn and MCW in the top tier. I base it on how they were at their peak, not averaging out their careers. Also, I try never to use per-so-many-minutes stats - I think it should be based on actual production, not projected production. Ennis could be first tier in my mind too, but he's borderline.

Stats above are per game but I added minutes because its actually a better way to compare and Scoop didn't play as many as the others. There is no hard and fast right or wrong though and numbers don't tell the whole story. I tend to agree if anyone of that second tier would be elivated to the top tier Jonny, MCW and Tyler would be the ones I was considering. Even at their peak in college they all would have been much better the following seasons.

 

[TBCuse11]

I think I would have Flynn and MCW in the top tier. I base it on how they were at their peak, not averaging out their careers. Also, I try never to use per-so-many-minutes stats - I think it should be based on actual production, not projected production. Ennis could be first tier in my mind too, but he's borderline.

Sherm
Pearl
MCW
Autry
Ennis

Honorable Mention: Flynn, Hart

just because guys like Sherm werent good enough to go pro early, does not mean they are the best (due to lofty stats here). MCW would have been hands down (maybe not hands down) our best PG ever if he stayed 4 years. The guy would have been 1st team All american and a top 3 draft pick. IMO.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Sherm
Pearl
MCW
Autry
Ennis

Honorable Mention: Flynn, Hart

just because guys like Sherm werent good enough to go pro early, does not mean they are the best (due to lofty stats here). MCW would have been hands down (maybe not hands down) our best PG ever if he stayed 4 years. The guy would have been 1st team All american and a top 3 draft pick. IMO.

Sorry, I should have been more clear -Flynn and MCW were in addition to Pearl and Sherm. Agree with you about leaving early. I confess that Autry is the one I know the least about.

 

[reedny]

Obviously, those two are the top tier--hands down, the best lead guards in program history. I think that Adrian Autry agruably belongs in that grouping [as opposed to second tier]. Possibly MCW, as well, even though he was only here for two.

Everyone else [including Flynn] are a cut behind those guys, IMO.

His dunk on Michael Beasley in 2007 was Tier 1