Kris Joseph's place in history | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Kris Joseph's place in history

Without going into the numbers too much (though I think they aren't far off), I view his career similar to Ryan Blackwell's. Fundamentally sound, played within himself perhaps a little too much (as noted above), and had 3 very good years as a major contributor to good teams. Never became the dominant player, yet heavily contributed to a lot of wins, even in games without huge stats. layed well as an underclassman in complementing the seniors, yet enough of a leader as a senior to make his presence known. A combination of feeling that perhaps there was more he could do, but at the same time being content in that he never made the huge error or seemed to have an awful game.
 
If I understand your post correctly, you are saying that Kris has impose his will type of talent, but lacks BB IQ ??? I happen to think Kris is a smart player who understands his skillset and tries to play within himself, perhaps he even plays within himself a little bit too much. Yes, it is arguable that perhaps he should have tried harder to become a post up player, but during his time at the Cuse we have seen an expansion of his skills in terms of improvement in shooting, better shot selection, taking care of the ball, and finishing in transition. A player simply cannot improve himself eveywhere. Kris has chosen to focus on improving his glaring weakness (outside shooting when he first got here) and his strengths. I see nothing wrong with those choices.

I absolutely am saying that. I'm not questioning his intelligence generally nor his work ethic and determination. But he's a guy who I think could be dynamic from 15 feet and in -- quick spin moves and quick feet, good FT shooter, obviously can face up and knock down jumpers, athletic enough and quick enough off the floor to follow up his own miss (did it twice late vs USF in key situations). IMO, and I'm not pretending to be some sort of basketball genius, he would be a more efficient player, shoot a higher percentage and get to the line far more often starting at 15 feet or closer and then hitting 3's when he's open. I'm not saying he has to live in the post per se, but he's better there than he is attacking on the dribble from the 3-point line on the wing all game.

My opinion of KJ is that he'd like to be Kobe-type of player -- good shooter, shoots over guys, gets to the basket, etc. But he'd be far more efficient as a guy who played down in the post.

An interesting comp is one of Melo or Nichols. Joseph plays a bit more like Nichols but isn't quite as good a shooter. He's not as big as Melo but has similar athleticism and is a better shooter. Yet while their overall shooting percentages were very similar, Melo averaged 22 ppg largely because he went to the line twice as often as KJ does. Now there are other differences in their games, obviously, but all I'm saying with KJ's game is that he's opted to be a more finesse shooter/penetrator when I think -- in the college game at least -- he would have been so much more dangerous as a guy who had a post component to his game.
 
Without going into the numbers too much (though I think they aren't far off), I view his career similar to Ryan Blackwell's. Fundamentally sound, played within himself perhaps a little too much (as noted above), and had 3 very good years as a major contributor to good teams. Never became the dominant player, yet heavily contributed to a lot of wins, even in games without huge stats. layed well as an underclassman in complementing the seniors, yet enough of a leader as a senior to make his presence known. A combination of feeling that perhaps there was more he could do, but at the same time being content in that he never made the huge error or seemed to have an awful game.

It's an interesting comp but I'm not sure it's a great one. Blackwell's numbers went down each season in Orange (shooting %, rebounds, points) and he turned it over 3 times a game. I mean, he ended up being a guy who didn't shoot many jump shots, yet still shot less than 45% and turned it over 3 times a game despite not being a guard.

Joesph's better comp, I think, is actually Demetrius Nichols with Nichols being the better shooter and a comparable rebounder, but Joseph being the better overall player (handle/defense/versatility on offense).
 
How good was Dave Bing... Holy cow... Huge numbers in 76 games! Incredible!

Is that correct, Dave Bing averaged more than 10 rebounds per game over his career - 786 total boards in 76 games?

I guess I didn't realize that. He also averaged 6.6 assists his senior year.

I knew he was a prolific scorer, but holy crap!
 
I absolutely am saying that. I'm not questioning his intelligence generally nor his work ethic and determination. But he's a guy who I think could be dynamic from 15 feet and in -- quick spin moves and quick feet, good FT shooter, obviously can face up and knock down jumpers, athletic enough and quick enough off the floor to follow up his own miss (did it twice late vs USF in key situations). IMO, and I'm not pretending to be some sort of basketball genius, he would be a more efficient player, shoot a higher percentage and get to the line far more often starting at 15 feet or closer and then hitting 3's when he's open. I'm not saying he has to live in the post per se, but he's better there than he is attacking on the dribble from the 3-point line on the wing all game.

My opinion of KJ is that he'd like to be Kobe-type of player -- good shooter, shoots over guys, gets to the basket, etc. But he'd be far more efficient as a guy who played down in the post.

An interesting comp is one of Melo or Nichols. Joseph plays a bit more like Nichols but isn't quite as good a shooter. He's not as big as Melo but has similar athleticism and is a better shooter. Yet while their overall shooting percentages were very similar, Melo averaged 22 ppg largely because he went to the line twice as often as KJ does. Now there are other differences in their games, obviously, but all I'm saying with KJ's game is that he's opted to be a more finesse shooter/penetrator when I think -- in the college game at least -- he would have been so much more dangerous as a guy who had a post component to his game.

If he started at 15' the doubles would come to him. Kris cannot handle in traffic. Guards would drop down to help and pick him clean. There is no evidence that he could hit turn-around J's consistantly while being defended against guys his own size.

Where did you get the Kobe comparo from ?? I mean Kris is a nice player, but even mentioning him in the same breath as Kobe & Melo...well, it just leaves me breathless.

Melo was a mega-talent. Kris is not - end of conversation. His game is not really even similiar to DNic's. DNic was first and foremost a pure shooter. Kris is first and foremost a slasher (who needs an open lane). If you compare Kris to anybody, I like the Todd Burgan comparo, though Todd was physically stronger than Kris.
 
Do you remember Nichols ever dribbling the ball?

Yes, but neither should've been handling it and I was just "eeking" in general at the thought of it. Joseph constantly gets picked off.
 
Against UConn, Kris scored his 1400th career point and grabbed his 600th career rebound.

I have often written about the difference-making forward as a key component of JB's best teams, and wondered whether Kris could fulfill that role. Well, only 15 other men in school history have gone for 1400 and 600, including all of those difference-makers. I list them below in order of their combined totals

1400600.jpg


Half of the guys on that list - the entire top 5 as well as the 7th, 14th and 15th) all made it past the Sweet 16 at least once in their careers. Will Kris join them?

Good list. Looking at that, there can be no doubt that if you were to add one of those players to this team, it would be DC. He was a rebounding machine. Just imagine how good this team would be with DC in there. Wow!
 
Okay i was born in 92, so i was too young when this dude played at cuse

But even though never seeing him play myself. Upon looking through the archives on orangehoops.org and the past teams

When i looked up Todd Burgan and his stats and type of build he was. I immediatly thought of Kris

Im i off between them being comparable, I know he was one of the better players on the 96 final four team

But i would like to know more bout him
 
Okay i was born in 92, so i was too young when this dude played at cuse

But even though never seeing him play myself. Upon looking through the archives on orangehoops.org and the past teams

When i looked up Todd Burgan and his stats and type of build he was. I immediatly thought of Kris

Im i off between them being comparable, I know he was one of the better players on the 96 final four team

But i would like to know more bout him
Certain similarities - biggest difference in my mind - Todd was a legitimate "tough" guy warrior type - Kris is a "nice" guy by comparison. Picture Kris playing w a serious attitude & you have Todd.
 
Is that correct, Dave Bing averaged more than 10 rebounds per game over his career - 786 total boards in 76 games?

I guess I didn't realize that. He also averaged 6.6 assists his senior year.

I knew he was a prolific scorer, but holy crap!
and also assists - they didn't keep assists as an official stat until his senior season, when he averaged 6.6 per game. that would be over 900 in a 140 game career and would trail only Sherman. 6.6 per game trails only Sherm & Pearl for a career mark.
 
the list also points out the importance of a team over a single exceptional player:

87 had three of these guys (Coleman, Thompson, Seikaly)
89 also had three (Coleman, Thompson, Owens)
96 had three (Wallace, Burgan, Hill)

Only the 03 team had fewer than three - just Hakeem (although we should consider Melo an honorary member, given that he was more than half way there in just one season 778 points, 349 boards)

On this squad, Joseph is pretty much out there by himself. Fair is almost half way there in rebounds (287), but he would have to score over 900 points the rest of the way to make the 1400 point list. We can project Fab to keep developing at the offensive and imagine his numbers if he were to stay for 4 years might make it, but he is even further away than Fair with just 217 boards and fewer than 300 points in his first two seasons.
 
KJo is Ryan Blackwell...too nice to impose his will on big games consistently.
 
yup . . . and look at what Bill Smith did in only 70 games . . . over 900 rebounds in 70 games, the equivalent of 2 seasons today

Bill Smith is one of my all time favs as that was when I was growing up. He was a very bad man. Tough as nails and played some in the NBA.
 
Okay i was born in 92, so i was too young when this dude played at cuse

But even though never seeing him play myself. Upon looking through the archives on orangehoops.org and the past teams

When i looked up Todd Burgan and his stats and type of build he was. I immediatly thought of Kris

Im i off between them being comparable, I know he was one of the better players on the 96 final four team

But i would like to know more bout him

Burgan had a much better handle than Joseph does and could create for himself a little better. Burgan was a much better rebounder than Joseph. Comparable outside shot. Joseph has much better athleticism. Faster, better leaper, and of course better on runouts.
 
If he started at 15' the doubles would come to him. Kris cannot handle in traffic. Guards would drop down to help and pick him clean. There is no evidence that he could hit turn-around J's consistantly while being defended against guys his own size.

Where did you get the Kobe comparo from ?? I mean Kris is a nice player, but even mentioning him in the same breath as Kobe & Melo...well, it just leaves me breathless.

Melo was a mega-talent. Kris is not - end of conversation. His game is not really even similiar to DNic's. DNic was first and foremost a pure shooter. Kris is first and foremost a slasher (who needs an open lane). If you compare Kris to anybody, I like the Todd Burgan comparo, though Todd was physically stronger than Kris.

Dude, if we're going to discuss this, you have to read what I write. Here's what I wrote about Kobe -- KJ is that he'd like to be Kobe-type of player. Where do I compare him to Kobe or put him in the same class. I'm saying KJ would like to model his game off that type of player. At no point did I compare the two.

When I mentioned Carmelo, my point was that Melo was extremely efficient offensively and KJ is not. I understand there is a talent disparity there but there was also a very different approach to the game.

Now as for your other points: I am not advocating KJ dribbling through doubles. If they come, kick it out and find the open guy. If they don't -- which they haven't yet -- then go to work. In fact, if doubles were coming that would be all the more reason to get him the ball at 15 feet since it would create open looks for someone else.

Nichols absolutely is a legit comp (though all comps are flawed at some level) in that he was a pure shooter. KJ isn't, but he shoots nearly 40% of his shots from 3. When you consider all the buckets he gets in transition he really doesn't do much slashing. Nichols was a pure shooter, KJ isn't, but both spend most of their time in the half-court around the 3-pt line. They also both averaged 5+ rebounds and played pretty good defense on the wing. It's imperfect and I like the Burgan comp, but they are similar players, except one was a better shooter and one did more slashing (though KJ doesn't do that much of it).

So my point, simply put, is that KJ would be a much more efficient player shooting 25% from three and spending more time in the paint. The fact that he has just 49 offensive rebounds is another example of how little time he spends in the paint.

I still really like his overall game, I like the kid and think he's a good player, I just think he's preparing himself for the NBA (which is OK) instead of becoming a real efficient offensive player in college.
 
Dude, if we're going to discuss this, you have to read what I write. Here's what I wrote about Kobe -- KJ is that he'd like to be Kobe-type of player. Where do I compare him to Kobe or put him in the same class. I'm saying KJ would like to model his game off that type of player. At no point did I compare the two.

When I mentioned Carmelo, my point was that Melo was extremely efficient offensively and KJ is not. I understand there is a talent disparity there but there was also a very different approach to the game.

Now as for your other points: I am not advocating KJ dribbling through doubles. If they come, kick it out and find the open guy. If they don't -- which they haven't yet -- then go to work. In fact, if doubles were coming that would be all the more reason to get him the ball at 15 feet since it would create open looks for someone else.

Nichols absolutely is a legit comp (though all comps are flawed at some level) in that he was a pure shooter. KJ isn't, but he shoots nearly 40% of his shots from 3. When you consider all the buckets he gets in transition he really doesn't do much slashing. Nichols was a pure shooter, KJ isn't, but both spend most of their time in the half-court around the 3-pt line. They also both averaged 5+ rebounds and played pretty good defense on the wing. It's imperfect and I like the Burgan comp, but they are similar players, except one was a better shooter and one did more slashing (though KJ doesn't do that much of it).

So my point, simply put, is that KJ would be a much more efficient player shooting 25% from three and spending more time in the paint. The fact that he has just 49 offensive rebounds is another example of how little time he spends in the paint.

I still really like his overall game, I like the kid and think he's a good player, I just think he's preparing himself for the NBA (which is OK) instead of becoming a real efficient offensive player in college.

The reason that you cannot even make analogies of Kris as compared to Melo or Kobe is that they are superstars for a reason. And that reason is that they can create and score at will. It is simply non-sequitor to say that Kris can model his game after Kobe's when he simply cannot (who can ??) execute the plays that Kobe makes routinely. You cannot say that Kris is similiar to a Melo or Kobe except for the talent disparity. It simply make no sense.

As for the Nichols comparo, we can agree to disagree, though it seems as if few others in this thread share your opinion

You can certainly have the opinion that Kris should spend more time closer to the basket, but you should do so with the understanding that he has not yet developed the skills that would enable him to be more effective from there than from where he plays right now.

You say I like the kid and think he's a good player, and with that I agree, but I also think you are viewing him as a different player than the player who he actually is.
 
Is that correct, Dave Bing averaged more than 10 rebounds per game over his career - 786 total boards in 76 games?

I guess I didn't realize that. He also averaged 6.6 assists his senior year.

I knew he was a prolific scorer, but holy crap!

Not to take anything away, but in general,

A) the game was a lot faster then (more shots), and
B) shooting percentages were a lot lower (more chances to board)

This was true of the NBA game; I am actually just assuming it was true of the college game as well, but when you look at stats like that, it pretty much has to be. Just looking at the stats on orange hoops; in Bing's senior year, the team averaged 81 shots per game, this years team is averaging 60 shots per game. SU actually shot close to 50% from the floor that year, so B doesn't look as right, but A is definitely true.

Kris and the ball handling is funny; he has had some very adventurous dribbles this year, but for all of that, his TO% is off the charts good.
 
When I mentioned Carmelo, my point was that Melo was extremely efficient offensively and KJ is not. I understand there is a talent disparity there but there was also a very different approach to the game.

Believe it or not, but in his one year at school, Melo shot 45%/33%/71%. Kris is at 44/37/76. Kris has a slightly higher true shooting% and a better TO rate than Melo. Melo used more possessions, don't get me wrong he was better, but from a pure efficiency standpoint, its pretty close.
 
Believe it or not, but in his one year at school, Melo shot 45%/33%/71%. Kris is at 44/37/76. Kris has a slightly higher true shooting% and a better TO rate than Melo. Melo used more possessions, don't get me wrong he was better, but from a pure efficiency standpoint, its pretty close.
This is a good example why the best assessment of a player's impact requires one to watch games carefully and look closely at key metrics

Freshman Melo could create his own shot from any spot on the floor at will and was an insanely good rebounder. Senior Kris can't do those things.
 
It's an interesting comp but I'm not sure it's a great one. Blackwell's numbers went down each season in Orange (shooting %, rebounds, points) and he turned it over 3 times a game. I mean, he ended up being a guy who didn't shoot many jump shots, yet still shot less than 45% and turned it over 3 times a game despite not being a guard.

Joesph's better comp, I think, is actually Demetrius Nichols with Nichols being the better shooter and a comparable rebounder, but Joseph being the better overall player (handle/defense/versatility on offense).
Good points...I guess for some reason Kris has always reminded me of him, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I guess it is more the style and demeanor, but the production is definitely different.
 
yeah, if SU makes a deep run this year then it is going to break the mold. No dominating forward, nobody who can get consistent points or free throws from the low post.

Joseph is this team's Todd Burgan, and Scoop is going to have to manufacture offense for everyone else, IMO.

I think Fair Compares to Burgan far better than Joseph does, both lefties, both good rebounders, and both good at scoring with "garbage" points.

Joseph is more of a poor mans Moten not the baseline game Moten had but both are tweener 2/3 Joseph a better rebounder, Moten a better scorer.
 
Believe it or not, but in his one year at school, Melo shot 45%/33%/71%. Kris is at 44/37/76. Kris has a slightly higher true shooting% and a better TO rate than Melo. Melo used more possessions, don't get me wrong he was better, but from a pure efficiency standpoint, its pretty close.

Melo's shooting was dragged down by the fact that he wasn't as good a pure shooter than Kris and struggled a bit from 3. But, if I recall correctly, as the year went on he headed to the post to make a living. It was an adjustment I seem to remember him making early in BE play.
 
The reason that you cannot even make analogies of Kris as compared to Melo or Kobe is that they are superstars for a reason. And that reason is that they can create and score at will. It is simply non-sequitor to say that Kris can model his game after Kobe's when he simply cannot (who can ??) execute the plays that Kobe makes routinely. You cannot say that Kris is similiar to a Melo or Kobe except for the talent disparity. It simply make no sense.

As for the Nichols comparo, we can agree to disagree, though it seems as if few others in this thread share your opinion

You can certainly have the opinion that Kris should spend more time closer to the basket, but you should do so with the understanding that he has not yet developed the skills that would enable him to be more effective from there than from where he plays right now.

You say I like the kid and think he's a good player, and with that I agree, but I also think you are viewing him as a different player than the player who he actually is.

Again, the only analogy I have made to Kobe is that both guys are tall. I'm saying KRIS -- KRIS, not me or you or anyone else -- seems to view himself as a Kobe type. I don't. I can't make that more clear. I think he'd much rather cross over, step back and drain a 20-footer than pump fake, draw contact and get the FT line.

Melo as well is in a completely different class. I'm talking about the approach to the game far more than there actual games. As in, both were capable of shooting from outside (KJ slightly better) but one shot from outside around 27% of the time and shot twice as many free throws (usually a sign you're in the paint) while the other is closer to 40% and, obviously, not going to the line that often. So we're talking about approach, not comparing the two players on ability, etc. I'm also not even suggesting that KJ should be inside anywhere near as much as Melo was.

And again, no comp is perfect. I like the Burgan comp, but let's not pretend there's not a significant difference between the two. KJ is much quicker, consistently shoots a better percentage from the floor and turns the ball over 1/3 as much. Burgan was a much better rebounder and passer (twice as many assists as a senior). I mean, I'm fine with the comp but there are plenty of caveats there.

As for the skills to excel around the basket -- that's my whole point. He should have been working at least to some degree on that part of his game. But as it is, I still say he's capable there. We can obviously disagree.

I don't even know how we got to this point, but at the end of the day my only point is that I think he could play at 15 feet more efficiently than at 2o feet.

*** -- oh and one final note: you seem to suggest that at some point I said he should take turn around 15-footers. Another thing I never typed.
 

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