Kris Joseph's place in history

[Louie&Bouie]

Gonna add one more to that list in two years--

CJ Fair

 

[Knicks411]

This is a good example why the best assessment of a player's impact requires one to watch games carefully and look closely at key metrics

Freshman Melo could create his own shot from any spot on the floor at will and was an insanely good rebounder. Senior Kris can't do those things.

The only thing I was replying to was their efficiency. Melo was of course a better player than Kris. I even said as much in my initial post.

 

[RF2044]

KJ's story--and hence, his place in program history--is still being written.

IMO, it all depends on how we perform this post-season. If we have a deep run into the BET / NCAA, then he and Scoop will be remembered quite favorably and fondly for their role as program guys, facilitating this unprecedented season we've had. If we flame out early, then people won't remember them with the same level of reverence.

Here's hoping they go out on top, thereby cementing their legacies at SU.

LGO!!!

 

[OrangeCrush22]

If Joseph helps us win a title, he goes down as one of the greatest SU players ever. If we don't win the title, then he goes down as a good player, who never got it done.

 

[br801]

The only thing I was replying to was their efficiency. Melo was of course a better player than Kris. I even said as much in my initial post.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about what you were saying.

I know from your posts that you are a student of the game and take a comprehensive approach to analyzing players. A lot of people don't. I was just pointing out that looking at certain numbers in isolation can sometimes be deceiving.

 

[CaptainSyracuse]

Against UConn, Kris scored his 1400th career point and grabbed his 600th career rebound.

I have often written about the difference-making forward as a key component of JB's best teams, and wondered whether Kris could fulfill that role. Well, only 15 other men in school history have gone for 1400 and 600, including all of those difference-makers. I list them below in order of their combined totals

Half of the guys on that list - the entire top 5 as well as the 7th, 14th and 15th) all made it past the Sweet 16 at least once in their careers. Will Kris join them?

Actually the #10 player on the list also made it past the sweet sixteen . Rudy Hackett was on the 1975 final four team.

 

[otto123]

Kris Jo could be this team's JDub.

He needs to show more of his back-to-the-basket game, which worked well against USF. He's developed into a very good outside shooter. If he can (a) continue grinding for defensive rebounds and stop cheating to the basket and (b) stop dribbling so much, he can be All-American caliber and this team is very difficult to beat.

John Wallace is very underrated if the 96 team would have won the title he could arguably have been the greatest Orangemen of ALL-TIME

 

[billsin01]

Yes, but neither should've been handling it and I was just "eeking" in general at the thought of it. Joseph constantly gets picked off.

I see Joseph's handle a bit differently. I don't remember having many true 3s that handled the ball better. I mean, Shumpert didn't, Nichols didn't, Burgan probably had a better handle but turned the ball over a ton, Blackwell was sort of a 3 and he was a turnover machine, Melo was criticized for his handle that year as well.

I look at Joseph and think he has a fine handle. He runs into problems, IMO, with all the dribbling he does. Two hard dribbles to his right and a pull-up from 15 feet are all he needs to do. All the between the legs stuff and cross-overs are window dressing and he's not at that level.

but generally he does have the ability to get to the rim with the dribble as well as handle in the open floor. That's really a skill set some of our 2-guards never had (Janulis, Cipolla, Duany ...).

 

[moqui]

Actually the #10 player on the list also made it past the sweet sixteen . Rudy Hackett was on the 1975 final four team.

thank you, Captain, you are correct. And, that is another case of a team with just 1 of those guys.

 

[CorduroyG]

I see Joseph's handle a bit differently. I don't remember having many true 3s that handled the ball better. I mean, Shumpert didn't, Nichols didn't, Burgan probably had a better handle but turned the ball over a ton, Blackwell was sort of a 3 and he was a turnover machine, Melo was criticized for his handle that year as well.

I look at Joseph and think he has a fine handle. He runs into problems, IMO, with all the dribbling he does. Two hard dribbles to his right and a pull-up from 15 feet are all he needs to do. All the between the legs stuff and cross-overs are window dressing and he's not at that level.

but generally he does have the ability to get to the rim with the dribble as well as handle in the open floor. That's really a skill set some of our 2-guards never had (Janulis, Cipolla, Duany ...).

I agree. Hes got a solid handle, he just dribbles too much. Wes and donte greene had awful handles, kris has a MUCH better handle than those guys.

 

[billsin01]

I agree. Hes got a solid handle, he just dribbles too much. Wes and donte greene had awful handles, kris has a MUCH better handle than those guys.

Yeah, not sure how I managed to forget citing Wes Johnson and Greene. Good call on two NBA-level guys had nowhere near the handle.

 

[DNABB5]

Certain similarities - biggest difference in my mind - Todd was a legitimate "tough" guy warrior type - Kris is a "nice" guy by comparison. Picture Kris playing w a serious attitude & you have Todd.

Didn't he get suspended those seven games for something that wasn't very "tough guy"ish.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

When I mentioned Carmelo, my point was that Melo was extremely efficient offensively and KJ is not. I understand there is a talent disparity there but there was also a very different approach to the game.

Melo is a lot of things. "Efficient" might not be the first or 300th word used to describe his offense. He wants to get volume shots up on the tin...

 

[TheOkieOrangeman]

I have watched every player on the list play-all very good to great. Yes- I watch Bing and JB in Manley (but that's as far back as I go).

I will not compare any player-college or pro to Kris-too subjective for me.

Saturday is SENIOR DAY!! That's a special day. I wish I could be there.

As far as Kris goes, I just say-thank you, thank you, thank you! In his senior year some would have expected his stats to get better (to improve NBA status). I think most people would say this team is better and much deeper than last year-especially with last year's freshmen stepping up their games.

My point is simple-Kris' stat are about the same on a more talented deeper team and he has been as reliable a player as we've seen in a long time. I say Kris is a GREAT player! He is a TEAM PLAYER, totally unselfish and a leader-he does a ton out their that goes unnoticed! He must love his time on campus and SU.

So forget all the comparisons-honor his effort for your school on Saturday and help him go out in style with a W!

29-1-Fabulous !!!! I believe he had something to do with that!

 

[otto123]

If Joseph helps us win a title, he goes down as one of the greatest SU players ever. If we don't win the title, then he goes down as a good player, who never got it done.

No way. KJ is a good player but not one of the greatest in Syracuse history, he's not even the best on this year's team.

 

[Ghost]

Yeah, not sure how I managed to forget citing Wes Johnson and Greene. Good call on two NBA-level guys had nowhere near the handle.

I would say that Wes had nowhere near as good of a handle, I don't think Donte was that far off. Kris is better with the ball, but Donte could make a move with the ball. He would rather shoot threes, but when he wanted to he had some ability to put it on the floor. Wes could barely dribble and when he did unless it was a pull-up off one or two bounces he was going nowhere with the ball.

 

[billsin01]

Melo is a lot of things. "Efficient" might not be the first or 300th word used to describe his offense. He wants to get volume shots up on the tin...

I don't know. I know his overall and BE numbers suggest he was more of a volume shooter, but he was so tough late in games going to the block. And then there was the NCAA tournament: Averaged 20.2 ppg on 47.4% (47-99) overall, 47.6% from 3 (10-21). Grabbed 59 rebounds in six games (basically 10/game) and also dished out 7 assists in the title game. I mean, he did average close to 3 TOs/game, but when you consider how the offense ran through him and how often he had the ball in his hands and how he was clearly the focal point of every opponent's defensive game plan, that's not a bad number.

 

[Knicks411]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about what you were saying.

I know from your posts that you are a student of the game and take a comprehensive approach to analyzing players. A lot of people don't. I was just pointing out that looking at certain numbers in isolation can sometimes be deceiving.

Fair enough, no problem.

Watching Kris dribble sometimes, I can't believe how low his TO are.

 

[OttoMets]

Didn't he get suspended those seven games for something that wasn't very "tough guy"ish.

Something bizarre, along the lines of "unintentionally menacing a female acquaintance." Really hurt our NCAA chances; we lost winnable games (to Alabama and a couple others) during his absence.

And since I'm commenting on Todd Burgan, I'll throw in that Joseph - who can frustrate with weak floaters from time to time - is a better finisher than Burgan was. If Burgan doesn't hold the record for "most uncontested layups missed in a career," it's only because Ryan Blackwell played one fewer season and Jason Hart got fewer attempts.

I've never seen a 6'7" guy lose focus and short so many layups and dunks as Burgan did. I don't doubt that he cost himself 100 points over the years.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Burgan, KJo and Blackwell all had that exact same, "Oh, we're out here playing basketball...whatever" demeanor down perfect.

 

[moqui]

I think Fair Compares to Burgan far better than Joseph does, both lefties, both good rebounders, and both good at scoring with "garbage" points.

Joseph is more of a poor mans Moten not the baseline game Moten had but both are tweener 2/3 Joseph a better rebounder, Moten a better scorer.

when I compared Joseph to Burgan, I meant that he fills the role of "talented second banana" that Burgan held on the 96 squad better than the role of "I'm the best player on the court" that Wallace filled. The interesting thing about this year's squad is we don't have that Top Dog player (even though Dion thinks he is); it is a team filled with second bananas, with the possible exception of Scoop, who will have to be the maestro making sure everyone plays their parts at the right time if this team is going to go deep.

Gonna add one more to that list in two years--

CJ Fair

He is the only one who has a shot, since he is certainly a 4 year player, but I think he might fall a little bit short of points. He's got around 80 games left in his career, give or take, so he would have to average 11.5 ppg. Certainly doable, but there is going to be a lot of talent on those teams and he doesn't have the kind of versatile offensive game that his going to make him the first or even second option, IMO. It's going to be close. He'll kill it on the rebounds, though. He'll end up with over 700 and probably crack the top 20 all time.

 

[moqui]

Yes. He made the Sweet 16 two years ago.

and three years ago as well, but the question was past the Sweet 16

 

[dollarbill44]

and three years ago as well, but the question was past the Sweet 16

Yeah, I saw that after I posted so I deleted it. I guess I killed my eyes reading that whole Malice at the Palace Grantland story that I couldn't read properly.