"Lack of institutional control"

[Cusefan95]

I've read that in several threads, I'm not sure people actually know what that means. Let's walk through the various stories that have broken this year:

1). Bernie Fine - Davis came to SU in 2005, told them his allegations (IIRC he also told them that the SOL prevented the police from doing anything). SU has their law firm investigate, didn't come up with anything, and filed the investigation report. 2011, On the heels on Penn State Davis gets a friend/relative/whatever the hell Lang is to back his story...and ESPN decided that 2 sources = run with story. One the tape gets played (which I've listened to and, while bizarre, a defense attorney would shred in court...), Fine was terminated.

What, exactly, should Syracuse University have done differently?

2) Drug cases. In 2010 Syracuse University found issues within the administration of their internal drug policy. Again as a result of the Fine case we've got "journalists" running around trying to find something, again they breathlessly report sketchy details in such a way that it sounds like they've investigated and found a major story..and here we are. Other than JB not running his mouth in press conferences, how exactly should Syrcause University have handled this differently?

3). Fab Melo. Jesus, it's not like we haven't lost players right before the NCAAs. BYU suspended a kid for violating their honor code and having sex with his girlfriend last year. Again, what exactly should Syracuse University have done differently?

I've never been to court, but I've been involved in numerous arbitration cases. It is absolutely amazing how facts can be stitched together to create a story that is completely the opposite of reality, and that paints an organization in an incredibly bad light. Most of what we have here is a university doing the right things, while the media (that up the story in the first place) has taken the role of opposing council. I guarantee you that this basic trashing of the university could happen at any university if the media became as dedicated to it as they have been in this case. It won't get better by feeding the beast and making wholesale changes, because all that does is lend credibility to the story and cause even more digging for "facts". This is a story that doesn't at all involve "lack of institutional control", it involves mainly lack of media control/ethics - and a gullible public willing to believe what the media is telling them without any critical analysis at all.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

Well, certainly the Melo situation has absolutely nothing to do with institutional control one way or another. Set up whatever controls you want and this kid just didn't care enough to abide by the academic requirements of an institution of higher learning. What we have here is a lack of personal control. That can and will happen anywhere outside of the Ivy and Patriot leagues.

 

[joct]

Say what you will about Fab, but to me this shows complete institutional control. They monitored his academics thoroughly, checked every rule pertaining to eligiblity, and when the deemed it to be a problem, they marked him ineligible. As far as the instution goes, like you say, I don't know what else they could have done.

Lack of institutional control could have gotten this swept under the rug, have classes like "how many points is a 3-pointer worth" (the Georgia scandal from about 10 years ago if I remember), not even known what his grades were, not known the eligiblity rules, or anything else.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Say what you will about Fab, but to me this shows complete institutional control. They monitored his academics thoroughly, checked every rule pertaining to eligiblity, and when the deemed it to be a problem, they marked him ineligible. As far as the instution goes, like you say, I don't know what else they could have done.

Lack of institutional control could have gotten this swept under the rug, have classes like "how many points is a 3-pointer worth" (the Georgia scandal from about 10 years ago if I remember), not even known what his grades were, not known the eligiblity rules, or anything else.

Was just about to say exactly the same thing. The fact that it was the SU Admin that did this (well Fab did it) actually restored some of my faith in the school and the program. JB clearly is no Calipari. He could have exerted his considerable force and tried to go get a National Championship then rode off into retirement, leaving the school in the lurch when the eligibility issue inevitably came up later on.

 

[RF2044]

Well, certainly the Melo situation has absolutely nothing to do with institutional control one way or another. Set up whatever controls you want and this kid just didn't care enough to abide by the academic requirements of an institution of higher learning. What we have here is a lack of personal control. That can and will happen anywhere outside of the Ivy and Patriot leagues.

I'd caution that we don't know for sure whether this suspension was based upon academics.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I'd caution that we don't know for sure whether this suspension was based upon academics.

originally i thought it did, but now i firmly believe he peed in a cup and it came out 'green'.

although the brazilians in the City here really like their 'X'

he will be selling crack in the alleys of rio de janiero in 4 years.

Oh Lord

 

[Noexcuse]

Great. Now lets stay out of the news for a long time. Unless there is some good news to report.

 

[Knicks411]

2) Drug cases. In 2010 Syracuse University found issues within the administration of their internal drug policy. Again as a result of the Fine case we've got "journalists" running around trying to find something, again they breathlessly report sketchy details in such a way that it sounds like they've investigated and found a major story..and here we are. Other than JB not running his mouth in press conferences, how exactly should Syrcause University have handled this differently?

Probably not have the issues in the first place? Obviously we don't know the details, but it certainly seems like, since the school reported it, there were issues with the policy. The fact that they were there in the first place would be the evidence of a lack ok institutional control.

The other stuff; I think you are right on.

 

[MaxwellCuse]

Not only don't we know the details, which we shouldn't, but we don't know the very basic facts as to how this action transpired. And this is a big problem.

Right now 90% of America believes that the NCAA busted Syracuse and Melo. Fans of Big East teams are clamoring for the NCAA to vacate the Orange's wins this year and are urging the NCAA to drop the hammer on a renegade school and program. Opposing coaches are no doubt going to be pointing out to recruits that SU is a thoroughly corrupt program that the NCAA FINALLY has decided to challenge and SU will be under the microscope for the next decade. Others will push the rumor that JB and Hopkins have lost the support of the BOT, Chancellor and AD and are on the way out. It is the proverbial sh&tstorm and SU appears to be doing nothing to fend it off.

Seems to me that -- without denying Melo his precious right to privacy -- the University can make clear that the NCAA had no active role in disciplining Melo. They can state that it was solely a University decision to declare Melo ineligible. They can also state that the incident leading to the declaration of ineligibility was not related to the academic issues that resulted in Melo's suspension for 3 games earlier this year. The University's clarification must come from Gross or Cantor -- NOT JB.

To me this is now no longer about Melo and basketball. It's about clearing the University's name as much as that is possible. SU is currently being dragged through the manure in the media, in internet forums and chat rooms, and by competitors on the recruiting trails nationwide. The University's passivity in the face of this unparalleled assault on its character is only making things worse. The time to go on the truth offensive is now.

 

[dinno28]

Not only don't we know the details, which we shouldn't, but we don't know the very basic facts as to how this action transpired. And this is a big problem.

Right now 90% of America believes that the NCAA busted Syracuse and Melo. Fans of Big East teams are clamoring for the NCAA to vacate the Orange's wins this year and are urging the NCAA to drop the hammer on a renegade school and program. Opposing coaches are no doubt going to be pointing out to recruits that SU is a thoroughly corrupt program that the NCAA FINALLY has decided to challenge and SU will be under the microscope for the next decade. Others will push the rumor that JB and Hopkins have lost the support of the BOT, Chancellor and AD and are on the way out. It is the proverbial sh&tstorm and SU appears to be doing nothing to fend it off.

Seems to me that -- without denying Melo his precious right to privacy -- the University can make clear that the NCAA had no active role in disciplining Melo. They can state that it was solely a University decision to declare Melo ineligible. They can also state that the incident leading to the declaration of ineligibility was not related to the academic issues that resulted in Melo's suspension for 3 games earlier this year. The University's clarification must come from Gross or Cantor -- NOT JB.

To me this is now no longer about Melo and basketball. It's about clearing the University's name as much as that is possible. SU is currently being dragged through the manure in the media, in internet forums and chat rooms, and by competitors on the recruiting trails nationwide. The University's passivity in the face of this unparalleled assault on its character is only making things worse. The time to go on the truth offensive is now.

An NCAA rep already states that this was Syracuse University suspending Fab not an NCAA decision ... what more do you want

 

[GoSU96]

Not only don't we know the details, which we shouldn't, but we don't know the very basic facts as to how this action transpired. And this is a big problem.

Right now 90% of America believes that the NCAA busted Syracuse and Melo. Fans of Big East teams are clamoring for the NCAA to vacate the Orange's wins this year and are urging the NCAA to drop the hammer on a renegade school and program. Opposing coaches are no doubt going to be pointing out to recruits that SU is a thoroughly corrupt program that the NCAA FINALLY has decided to challenge and SU will be under the microscope for the next decade. Others will push the rumor that JB and Hopkins have lost the support of the BOT, Chancellor and AD and are on the way out. It is the proverbial sh&tstorm and SU appears to be doing nothing to fend it off.

Seems to me that -- without denying Melo his precious right to privacy -- the University can make clear that the NCAA had no active role in disciplining Melo. They can state that it was solely a University decision to declare Melo ineligible. They can also state that the incident leading to the declaration of ineligibility was not related to the academic issues that resulted in Melo's suspension for 3 games earlier this year. The University's clarification must come from Gross or Cantor -- NOT JB.

To me this is now no longer about Melo and basketball. It's about clearing the University's name as much as that is possible. SU is currently being dragged through the manure in the media, in internet forums and chat rooms, and by competitors on the recruiting trails nationwide. The University's passivity in the face of this unparalleled assault on its character is only making things worse. The time to go on the truth offensive is now.

Busted for what? Throughly corrupt?, where does that come from? Renegade school?

This is like an IMatt post with its conclusion jumping.

With all the "drama" associated with this program, anything I've ever heard about is in the realm of kids being idiots. There isn't anything that I've seen or heard that suggests that there is a culture of the "program" cheating either in recruiting or keeping kids eligible.

Does Boeheim give kids a lot of rope, yep, doesn't mean that at the end of the day there aren't consequences when kids go to far or stray to often.

With Melo there seems there are two scenarios kicking around. 1. He failed a drug test. Pretty simple stuff, kid owns it 100%. Where is the sweeping it under the rug. 2. Academics tied to the initial problem. Given the circumstance and time between events whatever the issue was was not black and white, and the program and school and likely the NCAA didn't have a clear cut obvious decision to make.

 

[SWC75]

"Lack of Institutional Control" = "We haven't really got anything so we'll link together some unrelated stuff that happened over a period of years and was dealt with at that time and declare that there is a problem."

 

[PoppyHart]

I'd caution that we don't know for sure whether this suspension was based upon academics.

Yep, I'm not buying that's it's an academic issue. In January the school didn't hesitate to say it was an academic issue. Why would they not be as explicit now?

 

[Cusefan95]

Probably not have the issues in the first place? Obviously we don't know the details, but it certainly seems like, since the school reported it, there were issues with the policy. The fact that they were there in the first place would be the evidence of a lack ok institutional control.

Don't entirely agree - no organization is perfect. It's obviously be better to not have the issue, but at least the right thing was done when it was found - it was self-reported to the NCAA.

I think the broader point is this is viewed in the context of the Fine case. Viewed on its own, this is a fifteen second piece on Sportcenter than nobody remembers two days later.

 

[RoysRunts]

I've read that in several threads, I'm not sure people actually know what that means. Let's walk through the various stories that have broken this year:

1). Bernie Fine - Davis came to SU in 2005, told them his allegations (IIRC he also told them that the SOL prevented the police from doing anything). SU has their law firm investigate, didn't come up with anything, and filed the investigation report. 2011, On the heels on Penn State Davis gets a friend/relative/whatever the hell Lang is to back his story...and ESPN decided that 2 sources = run with story. One the tape gets played (which I've listened to and, while bizarre, a defense attorney would shred in court...), Fine was terminated.

What, exactly, should Syracuse University have done differently?

2) Drug cases. In 2010 Syracuse University found issues within the administration of their internal drug policy. Again as a result of the Fine case we've got "journalists" running around trying to find something, again they breathlessly report sketchy details in such a way that it sounds like they've investigated and found a major story..and here we are. Other than JB not running his mouth in press conferences, how exactly should Syrcause University have handled this differently?

3). Fab Melo. Jesus, it's not like we haven't lost players right before the NCAAs. BYU suspended a kid for violating their honor code and having sex with his girlfriend last year. Again, what exactly should Syracuse University have done differently?

I've never been to court, but I've been involved in numerous arbitration cases. It is absolutely amazing how facts can be stitched together to create a story that is completely the opposite of reality, and that paints an organization in an incredibly bad light. Most of what we have here is a university doing the right things, while the media (that ****** up the story in the first place) has taken the role of opposing council. I guarantee you that this basic trashing of the university could happen at any university if the media became as dedicated to it as they have been in this case. It won't get better by feeding the beast and making wholesale changes, because all that does is lend credibility to the story and cause even more digging for "facts". This is a story that doesn't at all involve "lack of institutional control", it involves mainly lack of media control/ethics - and a gullible public willing to believe what the media is telling them without any critical analysis at all.

Gloria Allreads Defense (Sound Familiar)

 

[Knicks411]

Don't entirely agree - no organization is perfect. It's obviously be better to not have the issue, but at least the right thing was done when it was found - it was self-reported to the NCAA.

I think the broader point is this is viewed in the context of the Fine case. Viewed on its own, this is a fifteen second piece on Sportcenter than nobody remembers two days later.

I agree; one thing isn't going to give you a lack of control tag. And if not for Fine, yeah, not really a big deal.

But I dunno, it doesn't come off well when you have a policy and you have a habit of ignoring it. (Let's speak hypothetically; that's alleged to have happened here, we don't know that for a fact). There were obviously people violating the policy at some point, and it may have been going on for years. There were people who knew something wrong was going on and didn't report it for a while. (Once again,speaking more hypothetically, if what is alleged is true).

Of course then you get into the whole thing of schools aren't required to have a policy, etc.

 

[kuethstheman]

Yep, I'm not buying that's it's an academic issue. In January the school didn't hesitate to say it was an academic issue. Why would they not be as explicit now?

I honestly don't remember the university announcing that it was an academic issue the first time either. I heard it from Andy Katz. Don't know if his source was official or not.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I'm confused with the logic here. Lack of institutional Control? Isn't the university's suspension of a key player for the NCAA's a display of the exact opposite - a total public illustration of institutional control? Are people saying that they believe proper institutional controls would have ensured Fab's eligibility? Huh? Thus if the university made this issue "go away", the team would have Fab Melo, no public disclosure that there's an issue at all with his academics and people would be proud and not embarrassed?

If anything I see this has a case of judgement. When Fab was recruited by all these colleges were they also aware of his character, personality and committment to an education? If some think he wouldn't have had these issues at another college do you really think its because he'd have been a better student as a result of their universities "institutional control" , if so maybe the definition of institutional control is the real issue here. Maybe Fab's high school had this great type of institutional control and he was projected to be a fine student.

It reminds me of a person commenting on another local high school's student who was ineligible because of a failure on a 5 week report. He was bragging that his childrens' high school never had an athlete ineligible for athletic competition. Knowing some teachers and coaches there, I asked him if he knew what the acadmic eligibility rules were at his high school. I told him he should check. He never brought it up again because as he later acknowledged, they had none.

 

[moqui]

I'm confused with the logic here. Lack of institutional Control? Isn't the university's suspension of a key player for the NCAA's a display of the exact opposite - a total public illustration of institutional control?

Bingo. This is the moment that SU alums should be most proud of their institution.

 

[PoppyHart]

If it was merely bad judgment, such as not going to class or not handing in assignments, he wouldn't have an "eligibility issue". Sure, he could be kicked off the team for not following team rules, conduct unbecoming, failure to meet obligations, etc... but until his grades are in, I don't see how this is an eligibility issue.

I think the school is keeping mum, and letting the public think it's an academic issue, and allowing/urging people within the University to leak that rumor, while never publicly contradicting it.

That said, if it truly does relate to the January issue, and the situation was not handled according to S.O.P., then that screams of lack of institutional control.

I'm confused with the logic here. Lack of institutional Control? Isn't the university's suspension of a key player for the NCAA's a display of the exact opposite - a total public illustration of institutional control? Are people saying that they believe proper institutional controls would have ensured Fab's eligibility? Huh? Thus if the university made this issue "go away", the team would have Fab Melo, no public disclosure that there's an issue at all with his academics and people would be proud and not embarrassed?

If anything I see this has a case of judgement. When Fab was recruited by all these colleges were they also aware of his character, personality and committment to an education? If some think he wouldn't have had these issues at another college do you really think its because he'd have been a better student as a result of their universities "institutional control" , if so maybe the definition of institutional control is the real issue here. Maybe Fab's high school had this great type of institutional control and he was projected to be a fine student.

It reminds me of a person commenting on another local high school's student who was ineligible because of a failure on a 5 week report. He was bragging that his childrens' high school never had an athlete ineligible for athletic competition. Knowing some teachers and coaches there, I asked him if he knew what the acadmic eligibility rules were at his high school. I told him he should check. He never brought it up again because as he later acknowledged, they had none.

 

[upperdeck]

Well, certainly the Melo situation has absolutely nothing to do with institutional control one way or another. Set up whatever controls you want and this kid just didn't care enough to abide by the academic requirements of an institution of higher learning. What we have here is a lack of personal control. That can and will happen anywhere outside of the Ivy and Patriot leagues.

I can site you about a dozen cases where this exact thing has gone on at IVY schools

 

[moqui]

If it was merely bad judgment, such as not going to class or not handing in assignments, he wouldn't have an "eligibility issue". Sure, he could be kicked off the team for not following team rules, conduct unbecoming, failure to meet obligations, etc... but until his grades are in, I don't see how this is an eligibility issue.

I think the school is keeping mum, and letting the public think it's an academic issue, and allowing/urging people within the University to leak that rumor, while never publicly contradicting it.

That said, if it truly does relate to the January issue, and the situation was not handled according to S.O.P., then that screams of lack of institutional control.

this is entirely speculation on your part . . . and, as per usual, speculation slanted to give the worst possible picture.

if this is related to the January issue (which was really a first semester issue), it could easily be the case that Fab was on some sort of academic probation in which specific hurdles had to be cleared by specific dates. When he missed one or one too many of those hurdles, the suspension was automatic.

That scenario screams of firm institutional control.

 

[PoppyHart]

this is entirely speculation on your part . . . and, as per usual, speculation slanted to give the worst possible picture.

if this is related to the January issue (which was really a first semester issue), it could easily be the case that Fab was on some sort of academic probation in which specific hurdles had to be cleared by specific dates. When he missed one or one too many of those hurdles, the suspension was automatic.

That scenario screams of firm institutional control.

Then you dismiss him from the program outright and state that he did not meet the academic standards set by the university.

Re: your first sentence, for one, everyone is speculating, and secondly, I'm not sure the school deserves to be given much benefit of the doubt at the moment.

 

[moqui]

Then you dismiss him from the program outright and state that he did not meet the academic standards set by the university.

in all likelihood, the first punishment for not meeting his timetable was banishment from the team, not dismissal from the school. You puffed and pranced about the need to follow SOP, but you want the kid bounced without regard to just what exactly what that might be.

this is buffoonery. the fact is, you don't know What you are talking about and are simply eager to paint as ugly a picture as you possibly can. you'll never cop to it, but you don't have to, because I will bust you on it every time.

 

[PoppyHart]

in all likelihood, the first punishment for not meeting his timetable was banishment from the team, not dismissal from the school. You puffed and pranced about the need to follow SOP, but you want the kid bounced without regard to just what exactly what that might be.

this is buffoonery. the fact is, you don't know What you are talking about and are simply eager to paint as ugly a picture as you possibly can. you'll never cop to it, but you don't have to, because I will bust you on it every time.

Ok tough guy.