Last 13 years, average 3p% rank is 190th

[orangefog]

His defense is awful at this point. He keeps taking his eyes off of his man. And when he does that, it's too late when his guy gets the ball.

If only we had a coach that could teach defense

 

[dasher]

If only we had a coach that could teach defense

Or get back on defense.

 

[orangefog]

Or get back on defense.

That’s a start

 

[Cusefan0307]

For most of JB's tenure he relied on one or maybe two shooters. He never really changed his strategy until the end. Dinosaur ISO ball was not great for creating open catch and shoot looks.

Red has a bunch of guys outside of Bell(supposedly) and Moore who are below average shooters. Moore shooting 33% as a freshman is solid and I expect it to go up from there.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I would like to have basketball players. Guys that can shoot. Dribble, rebound, defend. It seems we got away from that a long time ago. The guys in next years class are reputed to be good shooters. With the exception of White.

Ironically, I think it's the players themselves, and lack of quality coaching, that has led to such bad basketball pretty much all across college. The "best" recruits generally don't know how to play defense, and spend more time playing playground ball in AAU than they do being properly coached.

 

[Knicks411]

That team of misfits had a fringe NBA guard who scored 200 points from the line and an all-conference defender in the paint who didn't miss many putbacks. They somehow won 20 games despite having a SRS that was 4th from last in conference. They had a final KenPom of 80. Most other P5 teams with those kinds of underlying metrics are +/- .500.

This season Red has his guys and they're worse.

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Yeah I admit I haven't been posting as much as usual (gee I wonder why?) but I have seen the Red won 20 games thing last year, and I mostly agree with you. They were 7th in the country in luck rating on Ken Pom last year. They had a barely positive scoring margin, yet they went 20-12 (also 20 wins isn't what it used to be, but I feel like we should all be well aware of that by now). So I guess you could look at that and say 1) Man Red did a hell of a job coaching those guys up last year or 2) the team should've been a little above 500 and instead ran hot in close games and won a few more than they "should" have. Which of those 2 seems more likely now?

 

[Fly Rodder]

The team sucked. He won more games than JB did in his last 5. And I don't want to defend the guy but the board is actually forcing me to do something I don't want to do. Judah is not an NBA player. He isn't a good shooter and he is a horrible defender. Brown had severe trouble guarding good big men. And he like the rest, couldn't score. I am not happy with Red's coaching. There doesn't seem to be a plan. I don't think Red has his guys this year. Because of our lack of money, we hit the bargain basement in the portal. And that shows. He is going to get another year. Nothing you or I can do about that. And next year will certainly be more of his team. Hopefully it will be a bit better. If it isn't, he will probably be gone.

What specific things did Red do last season that made a team of misfits and ne'er-do-wells into a 20-win team and better than JAB's squads but look like he's never coached a game before this season with his players?

IMO, I chock it up to a modestly-talented team and natural variance luckily tipped into the positive side of things instead of the negative. They went 5-2 in 2 or fewer possession games. They lost games by an average of 17.5 points and won them by an average of 9.7. That tells me that they were probably a little bit better than a .500 team and got lucky a few times.

PS: I love people thinking Brown could barely play D1 yet somehow he's "only" the sixth man on the no. 4 team in the country and arguably the ACC DPOTY. Meanwhile Red overpaid for an overweight point-center because NC State went to the final four with one.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Yeah I admit I haven't been posting as much as usual (gee I wonder why?) but I have seen the Red won 20 games thing last year, and I mostly agree with you. They were 7th in the country in luck rating on Ken Pom last year. They had a barely positive scoring margin, yet they went 20-12 (also 20 wins isn't what it used to be, but I feel like we should all be well aware of that by now). So I guess you could look at that and say 1) Man Red did a hell of a job coaching those guys up last year or 2) the team should've been a little above 500 and instead ran hot in close games and won a few more than they "should" have. Which of those 2 seems more likely now?

I'm kind of torn about his great job last year because when we lost we usually lost by huge margins and I thought we quit in a bunch of games last year when we fell behind. The lack of hustle is and overall intensity is still missing.

 

[djcon57]

What specific things did Red do last season that made a team of misfits and ne'er-do-wells into a 20-win team and better than JAB's squads but look like he's never coached a game before this season with his players?

IMO, I chock it up to a modestly-talented team and natural variance luckily tipped into the positive side of things instead of the negative. They went 5-2 in 2 or fewer possession games. They lost games by an average of 17.5 points and won them by an average of 9.7. That tells me that they were probably a little bit better than a .500 team and got lucky a few times.

PS: I love people thinking Brown could barely play D1 yet somehow he's "only" the sixth man on the no. 4 team in the country and arguably the ACC DPOTY. Meanwhile Red overpaid for an overweight point-center because NC State went to the final four with one.

Some people simply can’t admit they were wrong on Brown. He can’t guard centers yet I've watched him be effective multiple times this year. Maybe it was the Bells and Taylors we surrounded him with? Nah, can’t be

 

[orangefog]

Some people simply can’t admit they were wrong on Brown. He can’t guard centers yet Ive watched him be effective multiple times this year. Maybe it was the Bells and Taylors we surrrounded him with? Nah, can’t be

Maliq has developed into a nice player. While it isn't/wasn't ideal for him to play center, he fit into the style that Red said he wanted to play. We want to play fast and play tough man defense. No offense to Eddie, but he can do neither of those things. So, now we have an odd mix of players to play what style?

 

[dasher]

What specific things did Red do last season that made a team of misfits and ne'er-do-wells into a 20-win team and better than JAB's squads but look like he's never coached a game before this season with his players?

IMO, I chock it up to a modestly-talented team and natural variance luckily tipped into the positive side of things instead of the negative. They went 5-2 in 2 or fewer possession games. They lost games by an average of 17.5 points and won them by an average of 9.7. That tells me that they were probably a little bit better than a .500 team and got lucky a few times.

PS: I love people thinking Brown could barely play D1 yet somehow he's "only" the sixth man on the no. 4 team in the country and arguably the ACC DPOTY. Meanwhile Red overpaid for an overweight point-center because NC State went to the final four with one.

Who here ever said that Brown could barely play D-1? No one also never said he couldn't be a sub on a good team. He also wasn't the ACC DPOTY the league had one and it wasn't him. You also talk like Red threw him off the team. Brown did not want to play the 5 here. I know for a fact that it rankles Red because he wanted to play the 4, with Freeman he wouldn't have and so he left. And now he plays the 5 at Duke. Also. we won 20 games last year. That is what we did. With a terrible team. Beat UNC. Now, is Red doing a good job as coach. I sure wouldn't say that. But, he did lose his best or second best player. and on a team with very limited talent, a killer. I think we beat ND and G-town with JJ. We will never know. And 7-3 would mask how bad we have been. I agree with that. But until we get the NIL right, It doesn't matter much who the coach is. And I don't think Red is doing enough in that regard either. But the whole athletic dept is also to blame there.

 

[Fly Rodder]

"He [Judah] isn't a good shooter and he is a horrible defender. Brown had severe trouble guarding good big men"

By Defensive Win Shares, the five best defenders last season were: Brown, Mintz, Copeland, Taylor, and JJ Starling.
By D-Rating (>300 minutes played), the five best defenders last season were: Brown, Copeland, Mintz, Taylor, and Cuffe.

 

[dasher]

"He [Judah] isn't a good shooter and he is a horrible defender. Brown had severe trouble guarding good big men"

By Defensive Win Shares, the five best defenders last season were: Brown, Mintz, Copeland, Taylor, and JJ Starling.
By D-Rating (>300 minutes played), the five best defenders last season were: Brown, Copeland, Mintz, Taylor, and Cuffe.

You watch the Clemson games last year? As for Judah, he went for a steal every time. Got some, left his teammates playing 4 on 5 the rest. And Copeland and Taylor were so good, they can't start on lower level teams.

 

[djcon57]

Maliq has developed into a nice player. While it isn't/wasn't ideal for him to play center, he fit into the style that Red said he wanted to play. We want to play fast and play tough man defense. No offense to Eddie, but he can do neither of those things. So, now we have an odd mix of players to play what style?

Maliq definitely is a role player. But an elite level role player.

I also get Maliq allegedly didn't want play center. I get that, so we essentially chose Freeman over him, get that too.

I'm fine with accepting all the above.

I don't accept that we've been sold a bill of goods that Maliq wasn't good on D vs bigger men.

I don't accept that Eddie was brought into do certain things (Such as open up things for Bell) and it simply hasn't happened. Eddie can score. Eddie is a decent rebounder. Eddie literally can't defend...at all...he can't block shots, he can't stop bigger guys like was sold to us, he gets abused in every PNR like was predicted.

...and this is who Red wanted. So now we get the NIL excuses.

 

[dasher]

Here are the stats of the guys that we lost to the portal last year.
Copeland 6.7 pts a game averaging 15 minutes a game at McNeese st
Justin Taylor 1.7 pts a game and averaging 10.3 minutes a game
Benny Williams at Central Florida 6.7 pts a game
Brown 3.1 pts a game at Duke
Not one guy that averages 7 pts a game among the bunch
Hima, remember him, never gets in a game.

 

[Fly Rodder]

You watch the Clemson games last year? As for Judah, he went for a steal every time. Got some, left his teammates playing 4 on 5 the rest. And Copeland and Taylor were so good, they can't start on lower level teams.

Well thankfully the team defense is much better this year without those losers. And the italicized doesn't mean what you think it means. I'm not saying they're good players relative to the rest of the league. They were the best defenders SU had on a bad defensive team. Red kept the two very worst defenders and expected them to be better for some reason.

 

[dasher]

Well thankfully the team defense is much better this year without those losers. And the italicized doesn't mean what you think it means. I'm not saying they're good players relative to the rest of the league. They were the best defenders SU had on a bad defensive team. Red kept the two very worst defenders and expected them to be better for some reason.

Maybe because they could score. I just pointed out above that every player we lost, not one of them is averaging 7 pts a game on their new team. You have to score in the game. Now, he could have run Bell off and that would have been fine with me. I don't think we will have to worry about him next year. I don't like what I am seeing any more than you do. A lot to dislike. But the team last year was not only bad, they were a bad bunch. Except Taylor. He just wasn't good enough. We went bargain hunting and came up bad. No argument from me. And the idea that Carlos was another Ennis, I don't know how someone could see that. I don't really know what the discussion is about. I don't like what I am seeing but I guess I realize that he is going to be here next year. And you haven't accepted that yet.

 

[Nicknack]

What specific things did Red do last season that made a team of misfits and ne'er-do-wells into a 20-win team and better than JAB's squads but look like he's never coached a game before this season with his players?

IMO, I chock it up to a modestly-talented team and natural variance luckily tipped into the positive side of things instead of the negative. They went 5-2 in 2 or fewer possession games. They lost games by an average of 17.5 points and won them by an average of 9.7. That tells me that they were probably a little bit better than a .500 team and got lucky a few times.

Yeah, that's kind of where I am (and was prior to this year's season). Just because we got to 20 wins with a team of misfits doesn't mean Red is a great coach. That seems to be the leap some have made. I think it's too early to tell and he should get more time before anyone makes any bold claims. I will say though, it's not trending well.

Thing about last year's team, even though it sounds like things were toxic, we had a PG who I was very critical of and was happy to see go, but carried the team to a handful of wins between his scoring and putting the other team into foul trouble. We don't have a guy (at least yet) who can do that.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I think shooting is too far down their list of must haves

Autry comes from a different time where 4 attempts a game at 33% is good

Carlos shot 316 from 3 at hofstra. No chance they thought he'd be good at shooting

i think they thought this would be a good 3 pt shooting roster...and it is...in theory

bell was a beast last year

jj can shoot 3s

moore is also a great 3 pt shooter

then freeman is avery good 3 pt shooter for his size

problem isnt really shooting ability...its the offense

stagnant with zero schemes and zero effective plays...opponents can easily take SU 3s away

SU telegraphs its plans on offense...they have trouble doing things like making an entry pass

another problem with this year specifically is that the "PG" ...the guy who has the ball in his hands the most...is not a 3pt threat at all...so that hurts too

 

[CardiacCuse]

I agree. Moore is actually exceeding my expectations. I thought he would be good, but I think he is really good. His shot will fall. He'll figure out how to get open.

why is it on him?

why doesnt the team run plays to get shooters shots?

tehy run nothing for moore/bell 3s...its bizarre

 

[jncuse]

I think part of the problem is beyond just shooting ability. Its the ability to generate better quality looks schematically part of which is a coaching and personnel issue.

Be it drive and kicks, which are more often personnel related. Or Screening action at the top of the 3 point line by big man, or set plays that rely on screens / motion below the line, I don't think the coaching staff (this one or the prior one) has been particularly strong.

I have often watched games over the years where I feel our threes are much more forced than opponents, or often of the 1 on 1 pull up variety, which is a lower % look.

 

[jncuse]

For most of JB's tenure he relied on one or maybe two shooters. He never really changed his strategy until the end. Dinosaur ISO ball was not great for creating open catch and shoot looks.

Red has a bunch of guys outside of Bell(supposedly) and Moore who are below average shooters. Moore shooting 33% as a freshman is solid and I expect it to go up from there.

I just made a post about having no schemes, hurting the quality of our looks. You captured it well by calling it "Dinosaur ISO" ball. It feels we have took way more 1 on 1 pull up threes in the half court with somebody in our face than our opponents over the years.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I just made a post about having no schemes, hurting the quality of our looks. You captured it well by calling it "Dinosaur ISO" ball. It feels we have took way more 1 on 1 pull up threes in the half court with somebody in our face than our opponents over the years.

Always felt like when we won games under JB near the end of his career it was because we hit a bunch of tough shots. Our transition game died when MCW went to the NBA. Our off the ball movement has historically been non existent.

 

[Millhouse]

i think they thought this would be a good 3 pt shooting roster...and it is...in theory

bell was a beast last year

jj can shoot 3s

moore is also a great 3 pt shooter

then freeman is avery good 3 pt shooter for his size

problem isnt really shooting ability...its the offense

stagnant with zero schemes and zero effective plays...opponents can easily take SU 3s away

SU telegraphs its plans on offense...they have trouble doing things like making an entry pass

another problem with this year specifically is that the "PG" ...the guy who has the ball in his hands the most...is not a 3pt threat at all...so that hurts too

JJ can shoot them but he doesn't make them

Moore and Freeman aren't good shooters come on

When we do get a good shooter, we ruin him with our terrible offense, i agree with that

 

[OttoMets]

That team of misfits had a fringe NBA guard who scored 200 points from the line ...

TBF there's a LOT of dumb luck in the "flail toward the hoop and hope for freebies" stat.

If Kris Joseph got the whistles that Mintz got, he'd be SU's all-time leading scorer.