Last 13 years, average 3p% rank is 190th

[OttoMets]

Yeah I admit I haven't been posting as much as usual (gee I wonder why?) but I have seen the Red won 20 games thing last year, and I mostly agree with you. They were 7th in the country in luck rating on Ken Pom last year. They had a barely positive scoring margin, yet they went 20-12 (also 20 wins isn't what it used to be, but I feel like we should all be well aware of that by now). So I guess you could look at that and say 1) Man Red did a hell of a job coaching those guys up last year or 2) the team should've been a little above 500 and instead ran hot in close games and won a few more than they "should" have. Which of those 2 seems more likely now?

This says it better than I did.

 

[IthacaMatt]

What specific things did Red do last season that made a team of misfits and ne'er-do-wells into a 20-win team and better than JAB's squads but look like he's never coached a game before this season with his players?

IMO, I chock it up to a modestly-talented team and natural variance luckily tipped into the positive side of things instead of the negative. They went 5-2 in 2 or fewer possession games. They lost games by an average of 17.5 points and won them by an average of 9.7. That tells me that they were probably a little bit better than a .500 team and got lucky a few times.

PS: I love people thinking Brown could barely play D1 yet somehow he's "only" the sixth man on the no. 4 team in the country and arguably the ACC DPOTY. Meanwhile Red overpaid for an overweight point-center because NC State went to the final four with one.

Look, he's not doing well now, but last year, he handled a lot of challenges.

First, one big man, and then the other went down with injuries in only December / early January. The remaining backups were not playable.

Then, our starting forward kind of melts down and gets kicked off the team. Regardless of whether he ever lived up to his press clippings, he was a guy who could score 10 points or more in a game, and a guy who could get you half a dozen rebounds on a good day. So, we lost that guy, too.

That's 3 of our 4 biggest players size wise. What impact did that have? We had no choice but to play Maliq at center most of the time, and Justin Taylor at PF (!?!?!?) most of the time, even when he went full Chuck Knoblauch and couldn't / wouldn't / shouldn't shoot anymore. Just for defense, we still had to play that massively flawed player 20+ minutes a game just to have a complete rotation.

Forget all the rest of the prima donna stuff. He somehow lost 3 of his 4 big men, changed defenses to play more zone, and got us to 20 wins. I mean, that was a very good coaching job.

And now, it seems like he just doesn't get it at all. I just don't understand how he could be so much worse at the job this year. Makes no sense.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

3 seasons in top 100

Dinosaurs

How do you have this roster and think, i know let's bring in a 5'9 guard who can't shoot

I thought he was brought in to be a backup. And then we didn’t land the starter, so he got ‘elevated.’ Carlos would have been a pretty good backup per the original plan.

 

[SmilinBob]

I think part of the problem is beyond just shooting ability. Its the ability to generate better quality looks schematically part of which is a coaching and personnel issue.

Be it drive and kicks, which are more often personnel related. Or Screening action at the top of the 3 point line by big man, or set plays that rely on screens / motion below the line, I don't think the coaching staff (this one or the prior one) has been particularly strong.

I have often watched games over the years where I feel our threes are much more forced than opponents, or often of the 1 on 1 pull up variety, which is a lower % look.

Regarding kicks and drives it's tough because Carlos is no threat to score when he drives as even Ernie Digregorio at 73 years old could block his shot.

 

[Millhouse]

I thought he was brought in to be a backup. And then we didn’t land the starter, so he got ‘elevated.’ Carlos would have been a pretty good backup per the original plan.

I can go back to Starling and ask is this they guy we needed at the time we got him

Guards should be able to make jump shots

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I can go back to Starling and ask is this they guy we needed at the time we got him

Guards should be able to make jump shots

I don’t know what you’re saying.

 

[TinyManInside]

IMO the poor 3-point shooting over a decade is a combination of a lot things. 1) not having a coherent offensive scheme to get your perimeter shooters good open shots (probably the biggest factor), 2) not putting a high enough emphasis on recruiting players who are already good 3-point shooters, 3) not enough emphasis on teaching/refining the shot mechanics of the players, and 4) not recruiting ENOUGH players who are good 3-point shooters. Having rosters with limited numbers of threats = much easier to defend against the few guys who are capable.

Most of these deficiencies are a result of conscious choice and program philosophy. I can't say that I see any obvious program philosophy or direction with Red, so I don't expect our team perimeter shooting to improve any time soon.

 

[Cuse12]

Here are the stats of the guys that we lost to the portal last year.
Copeland 6.7 pts a game averaging 15 minutes a game at McNeese st
Justin Taylor 1.7 pts a game and averaging 10.3 minutes a game
Benny Williams at Central Florida 6.7 pts a game
Brown 3.1 pts a game at Duke
Not one guy that averages 7 pts a game among the bunch
Hima, remember him, never gets in a game.

What this info tells me (thanks for compiling this) is that we simply are severely lacking in talent. Yes we can talk coaching all we want, but look how much easier Kyle McCord made Fran’s first year (not a knock at Fran I think he is an awesome coach). Talent is king, and in the latter years of JB recruiting plummeted and it appears to have continued to some degree. Red has some bigger wins on paper, but that hasn’t come to fruition on the court.

 

[Blanko97]

Look, he's not doing well now, but last year, he handled a lot of challenges.

First, one big man, and then the other went down with injuries in only December / early January. The remaining backups were not playable.

Then, our starting forward kind of melts down and gets kicked off the team. Regardless of whether he ever lived up to his press clippings, he was a guy who could score 10 points or more in a game, and a guy who could get you half a dozen rebounds on a good day. So, we lost that guy, too.

That's 3 of our 4 biggest players size wise. What impact did that have? We had no choice but to play Maliq at center most of the time, and Justin Taylor at PF (!?!?!?) most of the time, even when he went full Chuck Knoblauch and couldn't / wouldn't / shouldn't shoot anymore. Just for defense, we still had to play that massively flawed player 20+ minutes a game just to have a complete rotation.

Forget all the rest of the prima donna stuff. He somehow lost 3 of his 4 big men, changed defenses to play more zone, and got us to 20 wins. I mean, that was a very good coaching job.

And now, it seems like he just doesn't get it at all. I just don't understand how he could be so much worse at the job this year. Makes no sense.

Center concerns: Roster construction issues. He chose to carry 3 centers who couldn't play at this level instead of cutting one loose and getting an even marginally decent PF to spell time for maliq which leads to your second point,

Forward meltdown: Could be seen from a mile away and another roster construction issue. Shouldnt have kept him considering his clear off the floor issues and his lack of production when he was on the court.

Lineup management: Coaching and (once again) roster construction issues. Taylor playing PF is a problem for roster construction, taylor playing at all was a massive coaching issue.

Also, it was only 19 wins since one came over a D2 team and it appears judah and maliq won 20* (19) games, seeing the result that is on the floor today.

Red isnt doing worse, he is doing just as bad as last year but he doesnt have players like judah and maliq
to bail him out of terrible decision making.

 

[Blanko97]

What this info tells me (thanks for compiling this) is that we simply are severely lacking in talent. Yes we can talk coaching all we want, but look how much easier Kyle McCord made Fran’s first year (not a knock at Fran I think he is an awesome coach). Talent is king, and in the latter years of JB recruiting plummeted and it appears to have continued to some degree. Red has some bigger wins on paper, but that hasn’t come to fruition on the court.

What that tells me is that we cant identify talent. Red was the one who was doing the recruiting under JB the last few years, that means talent failings also fall on him. But honestly, that isn't really a good excuse because you still had teams far less talented, whether it be Youngstown State, Le Moyne, or Colgate who all kept games close. That is a coaching issue. if it happens ONCE in a season, okay maybe its just jitters or looking ahead, but 3 times in a row? That is a Red problem through and through. Would he do better with 10 top 50 guys? Of course. But with JB and a roster like that I would expect a final four run, with red they might be a bubble team at beast.

 

[Scooch]

IMO the poor 3-point shooting over a decade is a combination of a lot things. 1) not having a coherent offensive scheme to get your perimeter shooters good open shots (probably the biggest factor), 2) not putting a high enough emphasis on recruiting players who are already good 3-point shooters, 3) not enough emphasis on teaching/refining the shot mechanics of the players, and 4) not recruiting ENOUGH players who are good 3-point shooters. Having rosters with limited numbers of threats = much easier to defend against the few guys who are capable.

Most of these deficiencies are a result of conscious choice and program philosophy. I can't say that I see any obvious program philosophy or direction with Red, so I don't expect our team perimeter shooting to improve any time soon.

This, this, this.

Hell, go back 20+ years and our best 3 point shooters never quite had the %s they should have because our offensive "scheme" largely forced them to get open looks on their own.

All you hear about the game of basketball these days is that it has become a 3 point shooting content. But not at Syracuse! We still think that if we have 2 guys who are good from distance we got it covered. It's WILD.

We're 10 games into the season and there isn't a single guy on this team who I feel good about taking a 3.

 

[AZOrange]

What this info tells me (thanks for compiling this) is that we simply are severely lacking in talent. Yes we can talk coaching all we want, but look how much easier Kyle McCord made Fran’s first year (not a knock at Fran I think he is an awesome coach). Talent is king, and in the latter years of JB recruiting plummeted and it appears to have continued to some degree. Red has some bigger wins on paper, but that hasn’t come to fruition on the court.

The NBA rosters should tell you everything you need to know about our talent

 

[Millhouse]

I don’t know what you’re saying.

We didn't need starling and should've gotten someone other than him.

We keep getting transfer guards who can't shoot to complement guards who are here who can't shoot

 

[Millhouse]

IMO the poor 3-point shooting over a decade is a combination of a lot things. 1) not having a coherent offensive scheme to get your perimeter shooters good open shots (probably the biggest factor), 2) not putting a high enough emphasis on recruiting players who are already good 3-point shooters, 3) not enough emphasis on teaching/refining the shot mechanics of the players, and 4) not recruiting ENOUGH players who are good 3-point shooters. Having rosters with limited numbers of threats = much easier to defend against the few guys who are capable.

Most of these deficiencies are a result of conscious choice and program philosophy. I can't say that I see any obvious program philosophy or direction with Red, so I don't expect our team perimeter shooting to improve any time soon.

At one point you could explain it by the zone (even if you hated the zone). That was the big constraint

Guys big enough to make the zone work who can move and shoot are highly sought after so we had to accept tradeoffs

But now that our guards don't need to be 6'4 now that we are no longer so constrained by the zone, why are we getting short guys who can't shoot

 

[Millhouse]

This, this, this.

Hell, go back 20+ years and our best 3 point shooters never quite had the %s they should have because our offensive "scheme" largely forced them to get open looks on their own.

All you hear about the game of basketball these days is that it has become a 3 point shooting content. But not at Syracuse! We still think that if we have 2 guys who are good from distance we got it covered. It's WILD.

We're 10 games into the season and there isn't a single guy on this team who I feel good about taking a 3.

Goes back to swish's thread about shooting form. We have guys doing stuff that id expect coaches to fix with twelve year olds

 

[OttoinGrotto]

At one point you could explain it by the zone (even if you hated the zone). That was the big constraint

Guys big enough to make the zone work who can move and shoot are highly sought after so we had to accept tradeoffs

But now that our guards don't need to be 6'4 now that we are no longer so constrained by the zone, why are we getting short guys who can't shoot

Because they make up for their lack of height by being poor shooters?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

We didn't need starling and should've gotten someone other than him.

We keep getting transfer guards who can't shoot to complement guards who are here who can't shoot

You quoted my post about Carlos.
And then said "I can go back to Starling and ask is this they guy we needed" — Sounds like you're asking Starling if we needed Carlos... Either way, not sure why you're complaining about JJ's shooting at this point. Who didn't want JJ at that time?

 

[Millhouse]

You quoted my post about Carlos.
And then said "I can go back to Starling and ask is this they guy we needed" — Sounds like you're asking Starling if we needed Carlos... Either way, not sure why you're complaining about JJ's shooting at this point. Who didn't want JJ at that time?

We got starling who couldn't shoot when we had mintz who couldn't shoot

Then mintz leaves and we get Carlos who can't shoot when we had starling who can't shoot

 

[IthacaMatt]

We got starling who couldn't shoot when we had mintz who couldn't shoot

Then mintz leaves and we get Carlos who can't shoot when we had starling who can't shoot

And Cuffe, and Copeland, and Westry, and ...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

We got starling who couldn't shoot when we had mintz who couldn't shoot

Then mintz leaves and we get Carlos who can't shoot when we had starling who can't shoot

I don't remember much discussion about Starling not being able to shoot when we were recruiting him. Were we not supposed to get him? Was the staff supposed to have predicted a shoulder thing and a new hitch? I still am not sure how Starling became The Problem.

And, again—wasn't Carlos meant to be the backup, ostensibly to someone who could shoot? The plan was PG1, Starling, Moore, Bell, Westry, and Carlos. 3-4 of those guys were supposed to be shooters. Plus Freeman, who was a really good perimeter player in high school.

What went wrong in the aggregate, i don't know. Start with not being able to get a true No. 1 PG. Which isn't Starling's fault. But, if i'm missing something, let me know. In a soft, kind voice, please. I'm kinda fragile these days.

 

[sufandu]

A few years ago, we had Joe G. Buddy, Cole Swider and had a losing season. We also had a pretty good center in Edwards.

Yep. We've swung back and forth between athletes lacking skills and skilled guys lacking athleticism. There was a time when we had players that had both. Good teams have players that have both. And they have players that fill a variety roles. This idea that you just throw 5 shooters on the floor that can't do anything else and everything will be ok is so flawed. It makes me wonder if people understand basketball when they watch it or if they just look at stats and imagine what the game looks like in their mind's eye.