Last play - court level

[pulaski74]

I'm not 100% on this college rule. How is this not a foul in the act of shooting?

Trevor obviously bodies him. He then does not take another dribble. He then makes an attempt to still heave the ball toward the basket. It clearly must be a shot attempt because there is no time for him to be trying to do anything else.

Put it this way - I think the 'shot attempt' was ignored because he was so far from the basket and because he didn't take a normal jump and release jumpshot. But had this happened on non-last-second play, and 15' from the rim, wouldn't you expect he'd get two shots?

If this exact play had happened to cooney with us on the short end, Boeheim goes postal and the board goes into apoplexy. We got 'lucky,' and maybe this evens out the CJ/jacket affair.

It's a W. Let's just accept and enjoy it until it gets abdicated 12 years from now.

just for your info smartass, no continuation in cbb. and you are right , if they start calling shooting fouls from 60-70 feet whats next. You can't pull that crap on a official

 

[kuethstheman]

just for your info smartass, no continuation in cbb. and you are right , if they start calling shooting fouls from 60-70 feet whats next. You can't pull that crap on a official

Down boy!

 

[pulaski74]

Down boy!

sorry, just a little too much caffiene this morn

 

[81South]

With ~2 seconds left you know whoever gets the rebound has time for 1 or 2 dribbles max before shooting a prayer. The only thing you should be trying to do is running some weak ass interference against the player with the ball as they heave it up from 60 ft. Just because you have a foul to give doesn't mean you give it.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I think you stated well in your own description why it isn't a shooting foul "Trevor obviously bodies him. He then does not take another dribble. He then makes an attempt to still heave the ball toward the basket." He was fouled first then attempts to take a shot - it wasn't a foul committed in the act of shooting.

Okay. There's a nuance in the difference between the college versus pro rule that I see inconsistently applied. I thought 'continuation' in the nba allows the ball handler one dribble for an 'and one.' I thought the college rule stipulated the player only had to be 'in the act of shooting,' which leaves some room for interpretation. Which is why players and coaches are always signaling to refs that the player was 'on the floor' or in the act, depending on how they want to spin it.

When I said Trevor bodies him, I'm not expressing s difference between a foul at the body versus one on the ball. It's still the same foul. And when I watch this again and again, I see the shot motion (even if it only comes as a result of the contact) comes so close to, and closely related to the foul that I don't see why it's not ruled a shooting foul. What helps us is that the 'shot' was so wildly off-target, but if his happens in the half court offense with five minutes remaining, I think he's on the line. I don't like the idea that refs 'swallow the whistle' at crunch time, or in the playoffs. "Let them play" is just a stupid statement.

As I said, I'm pleased as punch that we got this one. Payback for CJ. They'll remind us of the circumstances in replays for a year or two, but I can live with that.

I'm now going to search for the actual rule clarification... which I shoulda done before posting...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

With ~2 seconds left you know whoever gets the rebound has time for 1 or 2 dribbles max before shooting a prayer. The only thing you should be trying to do is running some weak ass interference against the player with the ball as they heave it up from 60 ft. Just because you have a foul to give doesn't mean you give it.

But, that's what they did at e end of he first half, and Allen spanned nearly the entire court in two seconds. With the 'Duke clock,' you gotta be thinking they're going to get a layup this time.

 

[orangefog]

Jones is going to win an Oscar some day.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Found a bunch of conflicting posts from actual refs in an officiating forum. Then this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Mark, for those who currently work NCAA-M's at any level, this is the relevant part of the interp:

"Comment-The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball”, refers to the hand(s)/arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion includes raising the ball with the hand(s) and/or arms to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include but is not limited to picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet." "


The last sentence in the Comment, is self-cotradictory, and appears to be an oversight in its script or structure. The common usage of such sentence structure would be: "This act of shooting motion includes, but is not limited to: picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet." Such statement would align the interpretation/comment with generally accepted understanding of the concept being discussed.
JMHO"

In this, and a related thread, they debate the rule and interpretation. If THEY can't agree, I don't know what chance I have. Some guys think two FTs can be awarded after he picks up the dribble. Another opines that it's a matter of assessing when the player begins a "normal" sequence of actions to shoot the ball. The problem with this is that in a 3/4 court situation, sandwiched by defenders, there is not likely to be any such thing as a "normal" shot sequence. It's just not going to look like a normal jumper or layup, and the act of shooting sorta includes the propelling run-up to get enough on the shot to reach the hoop.

 

[81South]

But, that's what they did at e end of he first half, and Allen spanned nearly the entire court in two seconds. With the 'Duke clock,' you gotta be thinking they're going to get a layup this time.

You're right about the first half although I can't remember where Allen received the in bounds pass. I submitted a question to JB's radio show about this scenario to see what we wanted there.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Found a bunch of conflicting posts from actual refs in an officiating forum. Then this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Mark, for those who currently work NCAA-M's at any level, this is the relevant part of the interp:

"Comment-The language of 5-1.10, “The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally precedes the release of the ball”, refers to the hand(s)/arm(s) in preparing to release the ball on a try for goal. Examples of the act of shooting motion includes raising the ball with the hand(s) and/or arms to shoot a layup or jump shot or the downward motion of the hand(s) or arm(s) in completing a dunk or alley-oop play. This act of shooting motion does not include but is not limited to picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet." "


The last sentence in the Comment, is self-cotradictory, and appears to be an oversight in its script or structure. The common usage of such sentence structure would be: "This act of shooting motion includes, but is not limited to: picking up the dribble, catching (gathering) the ball, or advancing on the court with one or both feet." Such statement would align the interpretation/comment with generally accepted understanding of the concept being discussed.
JMHO"

In this, and a related thread, they debate the rule and interpretation. If THEY can't agree, I don't know what chance I have. Some guys think two FTs can be awarded after he picks up the dribble. Another opines that it's a matter of assessing when the player begins a "normal" sequence of actions to shoot the ball. The problem with this is that in a 3/4 court situation, sandwiched by defenders, there is not likely to be any such thing as a "normal" shot sequence. It's just not going to look like a normal jumper or layup, and the act of shooting sorta includes the propelling run-up to get enough on the shot to reach the hoop.

At the distance he was from the basket, going into the motion of shooting the ball is a very obvious thing. There is significant gathering that takes place in order to get the ball all the way down the court. He didn't do anything like what I would consider preparation for a shot. He did the Duke throw his arms in the air after contact, but not an actual shot. I think the refs on the floor got it absolutely right. There may have been a foul, but we still had one to give and the clock expired at the same time.

 

[tbonezone]

as i watch both of the disputed replays the one constant i see is the duke player throwing both hands up in the air (like they really don't care) after the whistle. is this move something they actually practice ? if true they've certainly raised the bar on their patented flop techniques.

 

[Halfmooncuse]

If K had any balls he would have whipped off his jacket! Then given it to JB who WOULD SELL IT AND RAISE ANOTHER $5000 for coaches v cancer,

 

[longtimefan]

At the distance he was from the basket, going into the motion of shooting the ball is a very obvious thing. There is significant gathering that takes place in order to get the ball all the way down the court. He didn't do anything like what I would consider preparation for a shot. He did the Duke throw his arms in the air after contact, but not an actual shot. I think the refs on the floor got it absolutely right. There may have been a foul, but we still had one to give and the clock expired at the same time.

Similar to one of Paul Harris's favorite moves, which drove me crazy.

 

[Toga]

At the distance he was from the basket, going into the motion of shooting the ball is a very obvious thing. There is significant gathering that takes place in order to get the ball all the way down the court. He didn't do anything like what I would consider preparation for a shot. He did the Duke throw his arms in the air after contact, but not an actual shot. I think the refs on the floor got it absolutely right. There may have been a foul, but we still had one to give and the clock expired at the same time.

Those that can't do - flail.

 

[LAOrange]

I see the Duke player clearly lose control of the ball before he heaves it in the air; therefore, a good no call on a foul being called!

Thoughts?

Absolutely. Can't call a shooting foul when he didn't even have the ball.

 

[pulaski74]

Those that can't do - flail.

All I'm saying is common sense has to prevail sometimes, neither of these plays to me are worthy of national news, I just do not get the controversy. guess i'll grab my su blanket and go to bed.

 

[retro44]

Cooney barely touched him, but a nice 101 acting job.

 

[retro44]

If you look you can see Coach K in line already and no students around the players.

 

[Dave85]

If you look you can see Coach K in line already and no students around the players.

Duke fans harass the opposing team the entire game. I'm not buying the Coach K was being a good guy explanation from JB. I think he snubbed our players because Malachi was right there when K snubbed off. Malachi's hair was more than K could bear!

 

[retro44]

Watch the direction the Ref takes right after he waves off the call. It looks like he is beating feet to get out of the Arena alive and heads to the locker room. In this video you can see Coach K starting to walk to shake the players hands. Now go look at the Video where he snubs the players and he starts to head very fast in the direction of where the ref heads but slows down after passing the Coaches from Syracuse. No students were seen harassing the players at that point.The ref beat him to the locker room so K heads for the ACC office official right after.

 

[Toga]

Watch the direction the Ref takes right after he waves off the call. It looks like he is beating feet to get out of the Arena alive and heads to the locker room. In this video you can see Coach K starting to walk to shake the players hands. Now go look at the Video where he snubs the players and he starts to head very fast in the direction of where the ref heads but slows down after passing the Coaches from Syracuse. No students were seen harassing the players at that point.The ref beat him to the locker room so K heads for the ACC office official right after.

Exactly

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Duke fans harass the opposing team the entire game. I'm not buying the Coach K was being a good guy explanation from JB. I think he snubbed our players because Malachi was right there when K snubbed off. Malachi's hair was more than K could bear!

It was the dude with the man bun he didn't want to touch.

 

[SU_Fan_in_VA]

All this discussion about foul or no foul on the last play when it is evident on the video above that Cooney actual stripped Jones of the ball. Pause the video at 0.07 left to see the official closest to the play give the hand-on-ball signal to indicate a strip or block. Jones took a flopping dive and threw his empty hands up as if attempting a shot after he had lost the ball.

It was truly AMAZING that the refs did not REWARD Jones for the beautiful acting job as K later mentioned in his AMAZING post-game conference.

 

[Toga]

All this discussion about foul or no foul on the last play when it is evident on the video above that Cooney actual stripped Jones of the ball. Pause the video at 0.07 left to see the official closest to the play give the hand-on-ball signal to indicate a strip or block. Jones took a flopping dive and threw his empty hands up as if attempting a shot after he had lost the ball.

It was truly AMAZING that the refs did not REWARD Jones for the beautiful acting job as K later mentioned in his AMAZING post-game conference.

Good observation. Had not noticed that before. While maybe not the greatest angle - it does look like Cooney got ball.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

All this discussion about foul or no foul on the last play when it is evident on the video above that Cooney actual stripped Jones of the ball. Pause the video at 0.07 left to see the official closest to the play give the hand-on-ball signal to indicate a strip or block. Jones took a flopping dive and threw his empty hands up as if attempting a shot after he had lost the ball.

It was truly AMAZING that the refs did not REWARD Jones for the beautiful acting job as K later mentioned in his AMAZING post-game conference.

I thought we were discussing what actually happened, not what the calls were. When i look at it, I see Trevor with both arms going across Jones' body at the hip area, well before the ball is loose. In any other scenario, TWO arms across a dude is going to be whistled. And in this scenario, it looks like an intentional.

But, the fact that there are even differing opinions on what we see, on replay, days later illustrates how difficult it is to officiate. That a forum of actual officials don't agree on what constitutes certain fouls, though — that's disconcerting. Good that we actually came up on the plus side of this one. And always good to give 'those guys' a taste of their own bad medicine.