LeQuint Allen is Back

[Toga]

The school should send Hamilton Burger to represent the school at the hearing. Or send no one.

The Washington Generals of attorneys.

 

[sufandu]

not to be critical, that's typically what good reporters do

Really? I thought they just got to watch sports and make witty quips about athletes and coaches. At least, that's what I see more and more from sports journalists now.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Campus hearings are such a joke

 

[SUbear]

Reading what the judge has said in the memorandum. The smart thing for the University to do is nothing.
The judge rules no case and reinstates LA, and the University doesn't have to try to explain their actions.

Best way out of this mess is for a judge to rule for LA, and the U to not contest anything.

Going forward the U must revamp their policies and procedures.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Best way out of this mess is for a judge to rule for LA, and the U to not contest anything.

Going forward the U must revamp their policies and procedures.

I would bet that the University is waiting for just this outcome. That gives them an easy way out.

 

[rocklloyd]

Get a new dog and name him Riggie...

Or Vinnie

 

[rocklloyd]

Reading what the judge has said in the memorandum. The smart thing for the University to do is nothing.
The judge rules no case and reinstates LA, and the University doesn't have to try to explain their actions.

So count on SU doing whatever the exact opposite of this is?

 

[FrancoPizza]

Best way out of this mess is for a judge to rule for LA, and the U to not contest anything.

Going forward the U must revamp their policies and procedures.

But do we know if the judge will do the honorable thing here?

Either overturn SU’s decision or delay it until January 20, 2024.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

It’s an interesting circumstance when you consider it in light of customer service. Students are paying customers of the University but are rarely treated that way. Liability limitation is more important than common sense.

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

You should write about how we fix it.

 

[721Comstock]

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

Great rant!

The biggest problems are that college tuitions & cost of attendance have increased at more than double the nominal inflation rate.
Inflation long-term rate is in the 2.5-3% range, vs college is north of 7%.

That’s absurd. And unjustifiable.

A big fix would be to lower &/or cap the interest rates on student debt.
(Alas, all rates are higher now, but this would’ve been massively beneficial for the prior 15 years)

The other huge problem is, college grads can’t just automatically get good jobs anymore, so now they’re stuck with tens of thousands in student debt, often at high rates, and no way to pay it off.

The people who are the most screwed are those who took out loans, but then never got their degree.
It’s the worst of all worlds - they are saddled with debt, and don’t have the ‘piece of paper’ that allows access to potentially higher earning jobs.

And then you’ve got the parents, who often also take on big debts to help their kids attend colllege, and now they’ve sacrificed their financial well being and/or a comfortable retirement.

 

[All4SU]

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

 

[dollarbill44]

This would never have happened if Quincy had been on the case

Quincy was a coroner! He only investigated murders (don't ask me why a coroner is out investigation murders).

 

[David332]

What’s really scary is the thought of these students who clearly abhor due process possibly being in the legal system as professionals, or even worse as legislators one day.

 

[anomander]

I hope LA is also suing the school for damages.

 

[cusefan88]

I'm hoping there's behind the scenes stuff and as mentioned in this thread, judge rules for Allen and this quietly goes away.

 

[tep624]

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

My comment was more pointed at these judicial processes and how they basically exist as a CYA for the university irrespective of the impact they have on students who largely, in one way shape or form, are paying to be there. But I guess that aligns well with how you’re describing how things have evolved. Sounds like the whole racket now is just about bringing in tuition revenue to fund useless administrative positions.

 

[Cuseregular]

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

Preach on brother!

This mirrors my experience exactly and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. As someone with a BS BA and doctorate degree and then having taught others to get their doctorate degree for 30 years I know it all too well.

Add in the school loan issue for a blue collar kid with no family $, despite getting some scholly $ still had to pay out way too much to get educated to do what I’m doing now. Such that at age 60 still paying college loans and will til I drop (spread them out to 30 years to be able to have a good comfortable life).

So yeah I was the original way ahead of the curve with this stuff experiencing this world. Been sounding the alarm on it for 25 years and now (for ex. encouraging all the young ones in my family NOT to go to college and take up a trade instead - which pains me to no end knowing as you write above the intrinsic value of education for society in general but most especially for the individuals growth). Regardless of that, now we see our warnings have come to pass.

Difference is the genie is out of the bottle for good as I see no solution that has even a remote chance of occurring (for example, look what just happened with the recent Supreme Court decision on schools loans). So I’ll be curious to hear your take.

Again thx for taking the time to write out what’s been in my head a long long time.

 

[GoSU96]

I hope LA is also suing the school for damages.

He’s not. What is his claim? What’s the basis? What are his damages?

 

[tep624]

Great rant!

The biggest problems are that college tuitions & cost of attendance have increased at more than double the nominal inflation rate.
Inflation long-term rate is in the 2.5-3% range, vs college is north of 7%.

That’s absurd. And unjustifiable.

A big fix would be to lower &/or cap the interest rates on student debt.
(Alas, all rates are higher now, but this would’ve been massively beneficial for the prior 15 years)

The other huge problem is, college grads can’t just automatically get good jobs anymore, so now they’re stuck with tens of thousands in student debt, often at high rates, and no way to pay it off.

The people who are the most screwed are those who took out loans, but then never got their degree.
It’s the worst of all worlds - they are saddled with debt, and don’t have the ‘piece of paper’ that allows access to potentially higher earning jobs.

And then you’ve got the parents, who often also take on big debts to help their kids attend colllege, and now they’ve sacrificed their financial well being and/or a comfortable retirement.

Well not for nothing, but the worst thing that ever happened to the whole college education system was the boomer generation’s children and this concept that every child HAD to go to college or else there was something wrong with the child or the system. There were probably hundreds of thousands of kids that were better suited at trade schools, the military or working straight out of high school that were sold on a college education being what they were entitled to regardless of how much it cost, who was paying for it or if it made sense. And that perspective just perpetuated itself in the years following.

 

[SUFan44]

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

Higher ed employee here too, and I feel the same way.

House of cards and it will collapse for many very soon. Hopefully it will not for those I know.

 

[buffalorange]

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

My oldest son graduated from high school in 2009. He attended community college for three years, then transferred to a four year school. While at the four year school many of his high school friends began graduating from college. The employment picture wasn't pretty. Many of his friends had big student loans and were finding employment only at retail establishments. Part time at Lowes, Starbucks, Kohl's, etc.
To be honest, my son was kind of treading water in school, not really advancing to a degree. However, he wasn't dumb. He saw what was happening to his friends and changed paths by joining the US Navy and is now a nuclear machinist mate. With no student loans.
More high schools should encourage this path, or a skilled trade career. Unfortunately, too many guidance counselors are stuck in the mindset described by Clockwork Orange, college is the only path to success.

 

[Orangezoo]

Oh no, I'm going to rant. As someone who teaches in higher ed., this is one of my biggest bugaboos. An advanced degree is not customer service. It's a service to society. Well-educated people worldwide help buoy their national infrastructure and create technologically advanced societies that help raise the well-being of everyone.

A college degree SHOULD be about a life of the mind. It should be about gaining new perspectives and ideas to create a well-rounded individual who can think critically and act accordingly regarding the world around them. Unfortunately, the American education system is so fundamentally broken at both the elementary and high school levels and the university levels that so few students consider education a way to be productive citizens of an intelligent society.

I blame low-cost student loans. LBJ introduced the government-backed low-interest college loan system, which was a GREAT idea then. Universities and colleges shouldn't be free of charge, but high-achieving students who could make a difference in the world should have the opportunity to continue their education. Unintended consequences are unintended for a reason, and the consequences of this noble idea have helped to tear down the very structure of higher education.

Now that students could access higher education, enrollments started to climb. As competition between universities to grab the best students increased, these institutions decided they needed a better infrastructure to lure students. So they start building gyms, campus centers with myriad dining options, etc.. With all that new infrastructure, they need more employees and administrators to oversee these areas. Tuition started to rise, but for baby boomers and Gen X'ers who never thought they'd have a path to college, the increases were minuscule. The education and the jobs they would get from college overshadowed any slight tuition increase. With interest rates for student loans at 2 or 3%, the cost-benefit was a no-brainer.

People started looking at higher education as job training. As universities went nuts trying to lure students with everything except for better, more highly trained faculty, the arms race began in earnest. This is essentially the early to mid-'90s if you're looking for a time frame. Universities needed to give students all the creature comforts they could want as that would draw in more students. It also increased the cost of going there. It didn't matter, though, because higher education became a birthright for the middle class. Vocations and the military were dirty words for most households. That meant you were "stupid." College was the ONLY way to get ahead.

With this corroding of what a higher education experience meant historically (literally for 600 years, university education was about a "life of the mind"), people began viewing it as transactional. Prices became too high, and student loan interest rates increased mainly based on a formula from the original 1965 act. Many students in the mid-2000s dealt with interest rates as high as 8% on federal student loans. At a place like Syracuse, they were paying more than a quarter-million for a degree they would have to pay off for as long as a mortgage.

These high-interest rates and heightened tuition creep come to a head at the worst possible time - the 2009 recession. All of a sudden, these students can't get jobs, and the ones they are getting aren't cutting them to pay off these loans. Gen X parents and Millenial children become disenfranchised with the entire system (and rightly so) and look at college as a fully transactional customer service. No longer was it "I pay for an education." It was "I pay, and you give me a degree," and by the way, the customer is always right.

It all happened gradually and then all at once. I can tell you that the university I work at 100% looks at the student as the customer, and the customer IS always right. Their college experience is so different from the one you and I went through that it's completely foreign. The food options, the gyms, and the perks (water slides, lazy rivers, free ice cream trucks) are absurd. The quality of life is something they won't experience when they leave college. Paying for a gym membership that could even remotely compete with on-campus facilities would be astronomical. Administrative bloat is at an all-time high. I personally know of nearly a dozen campus administrators who get paid for doing nearly nothing. And they get paid VERY well. I'm not talking about senior admin here. I'm talking middle management types.

Faculty salaries, by and large, are stagnant. Universities decided a long time ago that to entice students, they needed to become country clubs. The education was ancillary. That callous attitude toward education by administrators has created the perfect storm of "I pay, you give me a degree." Education is only a tiny part of why the majority of kids go to college in the first place.

The higher ed. system in this country is built on a house of cards, and it will start tumbling in the next few years (it already has in some cases). Excellent private universities will start to fold within the next three to four years. The number of college-aged students has been rising for decades. For the first time in generations, that college-aged group is falling? Fewer students mean even more competition. Prominent state universities will continue to increase in size, gobbling up small privates in their sphere.

There are ways to fix this, but it will take a herculean effort. For now, though, my job has become akin to a Home Depot return specialist. I know they broke the tool themselves, but I have to give them what they want because that's our store policy. It blows, and it's terrible for everyone.

I told you I was going to rant. If you're interested in how we fix this mess - let me know. I can write another War and Peace on that subject.

Great breakdown. I will just add and emphasize the customer aspect. If you are going to crack down on SLs( fair enough) then crackdown on legacy admissions too where you can name your price as a school and there are enough takers to support the never-ending rise in the cost to attend.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Let’s stay on topic, please.

 

[gmoney44]

My oldest son graduated from high school in 2009. He attended community college for three years, then transferred to a four year school. While at the four year school many of his high school friends began graduating from college. The employment picture wasn't pretty. Many of his friends had big student loans and were finding employment only at retail establishments. Part time at Lowes, Starbucks, Kohl's, etc.
To be honest, my son was kind of treading water in school, not really advancing to a degree. However, he wasn't dumb. He saw what was happening to his friends and changed paths by joining the US Navy and is now a nuclear machinist mate. With no student loans.
More high schools should encourage this path, or a skilled trade career. Unfortunately, too many guidance counselors are stuck in the mindset described by Clockwork Orange, college is the only path to success.

The military is a great way to expunge student loan debt. Doing the military first and college second is also a great option. You’re 3 to 4 years more mature and you have the GI bill to significantly reduce the financial burden.

Unfortunately most would rather get nickel and dimed for 20 to 30 years than 3 to 4 years of intense pain. The interest they pay over those 20 to 30 years is mind blowing.