Lester & AJ - playbook vs progression reads

[chakka3421]

Im trying to get a handle on the seemingly quicker progression reads made by AJ. Is it a function of a much simpler playbook, simpler route running OR is AJ just a quicker at reading defenses & finding open WRs? It also seems he has a quicker release coupled with the right speed and loft on the ball for our WRs to make catchable plays vs Hunt.

Nassib got better by his senior year but he always seemed to throw too hard on short passes or didn't have the right loft and speed on longer passes. I still admire Hunt's toughness and will always appreciate that comeback BC win getting us bowling last year and subsequent bowl win but he doesn't seem quick enough reading progressions, finding open WRs, throwing catchable balls and simply relied too much on his own run game that ended with his stress fracture injury.

I wonder if Hunt would play better and read progressions quicker with Lester's simpliier playbook. AJ really has the opportunity to win the starting job for the next 3 years given his performance over the next 5 (6) games and it's amazing how this has played out so far. If AJ continues to be productive for the remainder of the year he will be hard to unseat.

It's also amazing how Lester's success as OC could come down to and tied to AJ's success as a QB as much as Marrone's success was very dependent upon Nassib's success as a QB. As Arb would say - it's good to be Orange! Go Cuse!

 

[upperdeck]

I think AJ is a step in the right direction, but not sure he has the arm to take it to the next level. he can get better with decisions though, the fact he probably threw 3-4x as many passes in HS is helping now over what Hunt had to learn in college.

 

[memcorsu]

I am thinking it is coming more from the scaled down O. We saw the same progression with Hackett. His first year and a half or so he was unproven and had very little experience; his offense was way to complex. The same can be said about GM and Lester. GM is Hackett early on and Lester is calling Hackett once the light came on. I want to say it is when we had to get like 4 or 5 wins to make a bowl and the simplified the offense and we moved the ball a lot more efficiently. Once the offense was dialed back, we were able to run a much higher uptempo game because Nassib was having to make much fewer reads. I do think that Long is a very smart player much like Nassib.

This is a much different offense or offensive philosophy than GM. GM had way to many schemes of which had to develop for the play to be successful. That is awesome when everyone on your team has NFL talent (he had been bouncing around studying NFL teams the last couple of off seasons, Hackett was too guilty of this). His focus was much more side to side which allowed defenses to cheat up. I think that the efficiency goes way up when it is a "boom boom" kind of thing over when you are having to wait for things to develop. When the plays develop quick you can fit them in tighter windows because the defenders eyes are not on the QB. When the plays take time, the defender has their heads turned and you have to throw the ball much differently. (not saying Hunt can or can't do this, because I don't know) Lester has focused more down the field and quicker throws/plays, which allows you to run a quick screen or bubble here and there and be successful because the D is back.

As far as Hunt and Long. I think I have not seen enough of Long and have seen none of Hunt in this offense to judge. I do think Long has not shown all of what he can do as a rusher and might be as good if not better than Hunt because of his speed compared to Hunts. Although Hunt is shifty and has size. I will admit that I am impressed with some of the throws that Long is making and if he is the best QB than give him the job. Shoot, if big WW somehow got a shot and showed he was better than I all for it. Let the best man win regardless.

A great example was the FSU game last night. They were trying to do to much in the first half simplifies and started hitting players on the run and making quick throws in the second. Two very different teams.

 

[Crusty]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but nothing much has changed except the plays from a reduced playbook came in faster and AJ is far more accurate than Hunt. Before you think that is enough, remember that 1) we continued to have our perplexing problems in the red zone, and; 2) the offense only scored 16 points, including one TD on a broken play. At this point in AJ's development, we can expect to see a lot of good things and almost as many bad.

On the bright side, we got a TD on that pick play that was called back (probably a correct call on Flemming) and West missed a possible TD when the sun got in his eyes . On the replay it looked obvious that he couldn't quite find the ball and, having been at the game, I can tell you the sun was right in his eyes.

AJ is a talented teenager, but he has a long way to go. I wish we had not had to burn his shirt because he has a lot to learn. I like the kid and I think he is going to be a really good QB for us, but yesterday's game reminded me not to have great expectations for him this year. (It's really unfair to him, but it is what it is.)
Don't get me wrong , AJ played an OK game for a true freshman, but his inexperience showed all game as he made many poor decisions on his reads yesterday. He was very fortunate not to have had at least 2 and as many as 3 picks.On one play, two defenders collided with each other to prevent a pick and on another his pass was thrown late and was six inches away from a pick six.
.
Watching the replay, he missed far too many zone reads. At first, I thought he might have been told not to keep it and run, but why call a zone read option play with no option?

After the 33 yard pass completion to West on our opening drive of the second half, we ran an option play in the third period from their 18. AJ tossed it out-of-bounds well in front of Gulley, who had an angle on the safety who had come up to stop the play. It would have been a long gain or even a TD. It was actually ruled a fumble (OOB) for a loss of 3 yards. A freshman mistake. On the next play AJ was sacked ending the drive.

AJ threw some really great passes, but we just have to be patient with him while he learns. Long to Ishmael is going to be a great combo going forward.

At this point I still don't know if Lester is the guy. He has had his good and bad series just like every OC in the game. I like a lot of what I see. We will learn more each week.

 

[Stern]

The fact SU has kept the offensive gameplan pretty simple under Lester and the offense is moving the ball better with an QB who had zero experience tells you simple is good! These are college kids not pros. Keeping it simple is the way to go now, the rest of the year, next year and years beyond. SU has some talented players on offense, keep the gameplan simple and let those players make plays with their god given abilities.

Lester has been fantastic though 2 games and I only think he will get better

 

[Crusty]

The fact SU has kept the offensive gameplan pretty simple under Lester and the offense is moving the ball better with an QB who had zero experience tells you simple is good! These are college kids not pros. Keeping it simple is the way to go now, the rest of the year, next year and years beyond. SU has some talented players on offense, keep the gameplan simple and let those players make plays with their god given abilities.

Lester has been fantastic though 2 games and I only think he will get better

"Fantastic" would be a bit over-the-top, I think. When he starts scoring in the RZ then I will get properly ecstatic.

 

[jgeorge322]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but nothing much has changed except the plays from a reduced playbook came in faster and AJ is far more accurate than Hunt. Before you think that is enough, remember that 1) we continued to have our perplexing problems in the red zone, and; 2) the offense only scored 16 points, including one TD on a broken play. At this point in AJ's development, we can expect to see a lot of good things and almost as many bad.

On the bright side, we got a TD on that pick play that was called back (probably a correct call on Flemming) and West missed a possible TD when the sun got in his eyes . On the replay it looked obvious that he couldn't quite find the ball and, having been at the game, I can tell you the sun was right in his eyes.

AJ is a talented teenager, but he has a long way to go. I wish we had not had to burn his shirt because he has a lot to learn. I like the kid and I think he is going to be a really good QB for us, but yesterday's game reminded me not to have great expectations for him this year. (It's really unfair to him, but it is what it is.)
Don't get me wrong , AJ played an OK game for a true freshman, but his inexperience showed all game as he made many poor decisions on his reads yesterday. He was very fortunate not to have had at least 2 and as many as 3 picks.On one play, two defenders collided with each other to prevent a pick and on another his pass was thrown late and was six inches away from a pick six.
.
Watching the replay, he missed far too many zone reads. At first, I thought he might have been told not to keep it and run, but why call a zone read option play with no option?

After the 33 yard pass completion to West on our opening drive of the second half, we ran an option play in the third period from their 18. AJ tossed it out-of-bounds well in front of Gulley, who had an angle on the safety who had come up to stop the play. It would have been a long gain or even a TD. It was actually ruled a fumble (OOB) for a loss of 3 yards. A freshman mistake. On the next play AJ was sacked ending the drive.

AJ threw some really great passes, but we just have to be patient with him while he learns. Long to Ishmael is going to be a great combo going forward.

At this point I still don't know if Lester is the guy. He has had his good and bad series just like every OC in the game. I like a lot of what I see. We will learn more each week.

We only scored 16 pts but the game was over in the third quarter and we really werent trying to score.

Also wake shortened the game with its run heavy offense.

Also, if not for a bad call by the refs, we wouldve had two red zone tds.

The offense is clearly better w aj under center and lester calling the plays. Thats obvious from watching. Hopefully it improves even more over time. Im thrilled w the changes however

 

[nzm136]

Lets keep in mind that we were playing Wake. Next week (Clemson) will be a real test.

 

[Rautins07]

Our biggest problem in the red zone is stupid,stupid penalties! Get 1st and goal at the 6 and next thing you know it is first and goal from the 26. PI penalty was a horrible call, but there have been very few clean trips in the RZ this season.

 

[Chip]

There's probably no right answer to who gets credit, and it's not like we're lighting up the world out there on offense.

But given the hand dealt, and the fact that we're doing pretty good, I'd say at this point Lester deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Avert your eyes next week, but the last 4 are all toss up games. We hopefully get some guys back, without losing more, and Lester's audition should have a big enough sample size.

 

[TheCusian]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but nothing much has changed except the plays from a reduced playbook came in faster and AJ is far more accurate than Hunt. Before you think that is enough, remember that 1) we continued to have our perplexing problems in the red zone, and; 2) the offense only scored 16 points, including one TD on a broken play. At this point in AJ's development, we can expect to see a lot of good things and almost as many bad. On the bright side, we got a TD on that pick play that was called back (probably a correct call on Flemming) and West missed a possible TD when the sun got in his eyes . On the replay it looked obvious that he couldn't quite find the ball and, having been at the game, I can tell you the sun was right in his eyes. AJ is a talented teenager, but he has a long way to go. I wish we had not had to burn his shirt because he has a lot to learn. I like the kid and I think he is going to be a really good QB for us, but yesterday's game reminded me not to have great expectations for him this year. (It's really unfair to him, but it is what it is.) Don't get me wrong , AJ played an OK game for a true freshman, but his inexperience showed all game as he made many poor decisions on his reads yesterday. He was very fortunate not to have had at least 2 and as many as 3 picks.On one play, two defenders collided with each other to prevent a pick and on another his pass was thrown late and was six inches away from a pick six. . Watching the replay, he missed far too many zone reads. At first, I thought he might have been told not to keep it and run, but why call a zone read option play with no option? After the 33 yard pass completion to West on our opening drive of the second half, we ran an option play in the third period from their 18. AJ tossed it out-of-bounds well in front of Gulley, who had an angle on the safety who had come up to stop the play. It would have been a long gain or even a TD. It was actually ruled a fumble (OOB) for a loss of 3 yards. A freshman mistake. On the next play AJ was sacked ending the drive. AJ threw some really great passes, but we just have to be patient with him while he learns. Long to Ishmael is going to be a great combo going forward. At this point I still don't know if Lester is the guy. He has had his good and bad series just like every OC in the game. I like a lot of what I see. We will learn more each week.

That was not a correct call on Flemming. The contact was within 5 yards and was light. It also did not pick the other defender. He didn't touch him.

Also - you can't write off a red zone TD because it was a broken play. That's what they teach these guys. Everyone is covered and you see green, run it in. Not sure how that's a negative.

Wakes defense is pretty good.

 

[Fjoinkay]

In the first 5 games including playing Nova and CMU the SU offense converted on 3rd down 33 percent of the time. In 3 of those 5 games, against Maryland, ND, and Louisville, the SU offense converted on 3rd down 26 percent of the time. Against Maryland specifically the SU offense had 589 yards of total offense at home, but was 4 for 14 on 3rd down which is 28 percent.

Against FSU and and Wake the SU offense has converted on 3rd down 48 percent of the time playing freshman QBs. The percentage is above 50 percent if you discount the possessions in the 4th quarter yesterday when SU ran the ball every down with Kimble in the game.

GM came into this season saying the offense would be simplified and sharp, but for whatever reason we never saw it. We saw a lot of confusion and lack of clarity about assignments. SU struggled to block and to execute especially the screen passes which were supposed to be an important fundamental part of the offense.

 

[Franz69]

Regarding play calling, I've stopped screaming at my tv, so Lester must be doing a pretty good job.

 

[Crusty]

We only scored 16 pts but the game was over in the third quarter and we really werent trying to score.

Also wake shortened the game with its run heavy offense.

Also, if not for a bad call by the refs, we wouldve had two red zone tds.

The offense is clearly better w aj under center and lester calling the plays. Thats obvious from watching. Hopefully it improves even more over time. Im thrilled w the changes however

While I share your view that the offense is better with AJ (largely because he is more accurate than Hunt), it is only marginally better - so far. As a matter of fact, we gained more yards against ND (429) and MD (589) than we did against Wake (370). I think what everyone is seeing is the potential and that is certainly understandable for this fan base.

The play calling really did not change until about 5 minutes left in the Q4. We had just as many passes and runs before that - we were trying to score.

I really don't see that Wake shortened the game either. They only ran 59 plays for a TOP of 28:13.

Blaming the refs every game is never useful. There are calls that go both ways every game. The pick play didn't look like a bad call to me, just a bad play by Flemming. Don't know what the second one was.

As for Lester, I like some of what he is trying to do in the RZ and hate others. (That trick tank play from the I formation only seems to trick us.) It is unfair to judge him so early, but as I say, we will learn more each week. So far, so good.

 

[upperdeck]

RS numbers look much better when you dont call back 2 tds and drop 3 more.

 

[upperdeck]

While I share your view that the offense is better with AJ (largely because he is more accurate than Hunt), it is only marginally better - so far. As a matter of fact, we gained more yards against ND (429) and MD (589) than we did against Wake (370). I think what everyone is seeing is the potential and that is certainly understandable for this fan base.

The play calling really did not change until about 5 minutes left in the Q4. We had just as many passes and runs before that - we were trying to score.

I really don't see that Wake shortened the game either. They only ran 59 plays for a TOP of 28:13.

Blaming the refs every game is never useful. There are calls that go both ways every game. The pick play didn't look like a bad call to me, just a bad play by Flemming. Don't know what the second one was.

As for Lester, I like some of what he is trying to do in the RZ and hate others. (That trick tank play from the I formation only seems to trick us.) It is unfair to judge him so early, but as I say, we will learn more each week. So far, so good.

considering we pretty much moved the ball every time at least a bit losing 2 possessions for scores by the D took away 30-50 yds. add in we lost about 25 running out the clock and the effort solid not great, but solid

 

[Crusty]

considering we pretty much moved the ball every time at least a bit losing 2 possessions for scores by the D took away 30-50 yds. add in we lost about 25 running out the clock and the effort solid not great, but solid

You made the one point that I do think mitigated the offense yardage and perhaps scoring. When you have pick sixes and scoop and scores you get one less offensive series for each one. I was thinking about that as I looked at the scoring drives.

 

[Crusty]

RS numbers look much better when you dont call back 2 tds and drop 3 more.

??? But we DO drop passes! What

 

[kcsu]

Lester is a much better play caller than GM. Lester has a better feel for his personal than GM and Lester allows players to get into a game flow vs GM. In short we are seeing the results of better coaching.

 

[Fjoinkay]

GM is definitely talented. If he learns from this experience I'm pretty sure he will have a lot of success as a future OC.

 

[anomander]

Simpler is better. Lester avoids that 1 bonehead call per drive McDonald was good for.

 

[upperdeck]

one thing i didnt see mentioned was the reverse we called that was set up and the tackle and QB didnt block the only guy on the D close to the play.

 

[Fjoinkay]

Plenty of room for improvement for sure, and that's exciting.

Going into this game just about every ACC expert agreed that Wake's defense is pretty good. SU traveled to Winston-Salem with a banged up OLine and a freshman QB making his first start. In the end SU moved the ball consistently playing against a good defense which was coming off a bye week and playing at home. I'm happy with that.

 

[Crusty]

Plenty of room for improvement for sure, and that's exciting.

Going into this game just about every ACC expert agreed that Wake's defense is pretty good. SU traveled to Winston-Salem with a banged up OLine and a freshman QB making his first start. In the end SU moved the ball consistently playing against a good defense coming off a bye week and playing at home. I'm happy with that.

Wake is 10th in total defense in the ACC in total defense vs ACC opponents giving up an average of 422 ypg (the in all games). They just are not that good.

I am happy with the win but I don't think we are good enough to make it to a bowl and that will really hurt. We need those extra practices.

 

[Fjoinkay]

Wake is 10th in total defense in the ACC in total defense vs ACC opponents giving up an average of 422 ypg (the in all games). They just are not that good.

I am happy with the win but I don't think we are good enough to make it to a bowl and that will really hurt. We need those extra practices.

Take that up with the ACC experts. Wake believed they had a good defense, and today they are doing some soul searching. Lets see how they perform the rest of the season. The problems they have on offense work against their defense over the course of a game. It's hard to tell how good they are.

Making a bowl this year was going to be a challenge from the get go, and the Maryland loss at home hurt. But I'm excited to see these guys work hard each week and see where they end up.