Let’s Talk About the 2022 Syracuse Offense

[kcsu]

Serious question… What specifically did they “figure out?”

How to defend it.

 

[kcsu]

What do you mean by figured out? They ran all the same common plays as everyone else. Everyone runs inside/outside zone, counters and power plays. Anae runs them too. Their pass concepts and Rpo plays were just as common. Play caling and execution was the problem (Gilbert sucked and the O line was horrendous). The most basic offenses are some of the most lethal ones when you execute them right.

My reference is to his tempo.

 

[TeamGlasses]

Babers needs 7 wins or his job is gone so to do that passing option and play action have to be practiced repitition. WIth a rb in place throw it deep to lull the defense to sleep run Tucker and Shrader has speed good enough to do some outside the pocket deep passes.

 

[ForCuseSake]

It seems clear to me that the failure of the Babers system was driven by the lack of horizontal stretch plays in the passing game beginning in 2019. Go back and watch any games from 2016-2018 and it's very noticeable, especially in the early game scripts how they were making an effort to attack the flats to force the outside linebackers to get wider in pre-snap alignments. Then they would mix in inside zone runs to get the safeties to move up to account for both the stretches to the flat and the running lanes between the backers. And this opened up the vertical and one-on-one passing game, which is what the Babers offense really thrived on.

I've had the conviction that this shift was personnel driven. I saw Devito as just being unwilling to throw those hook and seam routes to the slot receivers, where the ball had to be delivered into a tight window. On the other hand, I'm not quite sure why we got away from throwing the wide receiver screen pass into the 2x2 stack on the outside. This was an easy throw that Devito was perfectly suited for. This was a bread and butter play for Dungey, but beginning in 2019, it seems to have suddenly gone away.

My hope is that the passing game can get back to the original mode of forcing the defense to make adjustments that open up other avenues of attack. I'm encouraged because Anae seems to use alignment and motions to prescribe pre-snap reads. I think this is preferable as it gives better information and simplifies the pre-snap routine for the quarterback. Anae also seems adept at exploiting the combination of the seam/flat routes with plays that also drag linebackers and safeties across the middle of the field. I think this is the perfect complement to Babers system of exploiting space, both horizontally and vertically.

Great post and I wanted to add/ask:

Do you think our QB being less of a running threat contributed to the move away from the horizontal passing game?

Not trying to start a back & forth on why/who’s fault (scheme change, DeVito or the poor OL he played behind) but it seemed to me the QB being less of a ground threat allowed opposing defenses to sit on those horizontal routes.

You think this contributed at all or is it chicken/egg (those routes would’ve opened up more running lanes regardless of QB or RB carrying)?

 

[Cuse12]

Babers needs 7 wins or his job is gone so to do that passing option and play action have to be practiced repitition. WIth a rb in place throw it deep to lull the defense to sleep run Tucker and Shrader has speed good enough to do some outside the pocket deep passes.

That’s just wrong. I agree that no one will be content unless we go bowling. And ideally more then just bowling, a good bowl. But with our new hires, we are not going to bring the whole ship down in one year of being together. I think he has two years to make us happy about SUFB, whatever that means to our AD.

 

[All4SU]

My reference is to his tempo.

Teams were able to defend us because we were one-dimensional. Better skill position players make us less so. Offense versus defense is always a game of take something away but give something up. You have to be “multiple” no matter what offense you run. The trouble was we weren’t able to take advantage. JMO

 

[JRHEETER]

Babers needs 7 wins or his job is gone so to do that passing option and play action have to be practiced repitition. WIth a rb in place throw it deep to lull the defense to sleep run Tucker and Shrader has speed good enough to do some outside the pocket deep passes.

I can promise you, as long as Dino doesn’t go 0-12 he will be coming back in 2023 barring something crazy happening

 

[syrBossHogg]

I wonder if they will get rid of the option WR routes that Dino's offense had and just go more to concept based routes. It seemed odd to rely on the QB and WR both reading the coverage right when the offense last year had a new QB and a ton of young WRs playing.

 

[RMH44]

Great post and I wanted to add/ask:

Do you think our QB being less of a running threat contributed to the move away from the horizontal passing game?

Not trying to start a back & forth on why/who’s fault (scheme change, DeVito or the poor OL he played behind) but it seemed to me the QB being less of a ground threat allowed opposing defenses to sit on those horizontal routes.

You think this contributed at all or is it chicken/egg (those routes would’ve opened up more running lanes regardless of QB or RB carrying)?

I know you didn't ask for my opinion but here goes.

I honestly believe that DeVito didn't/couldn't grasp the basic concept (take what the defense gives you) of DB's offense. Additionally, he came in with a gunslinger mentality.

Combine these 2 things with a less than average offensive line and you have the makings of a pending disaster.

Imo, TD's biggest failings came at the LOS. Rather than take what the D offered, he seemed to approach the LOS with his mind made up...which was usually looking vertically first and then run for cover. I'm not even going to get into his lack of feel in the pocket or comprehension of in-game situational awareness.

TD might actually be OK at Illinois because Bielema doesn't ask much from his QB's and runs a very structured offense which usually involves hand-offs on 1st and 2nd downs. He won't have to make as many decisions at the line of scrimmage. Time will tell.

 

[CuseMan4]

A few things
1) I think Allen is going to be a great compliment to Tucker. I don’t think Price is going to get zero touches but I bet Allen is the back up to Tucker. Kid is talented

2) Hatcher is going to get run and might even be a starting WR opening game

3) I think this o-line in their second year with Schmidt and a healthy Bleich is going to be a really good unit for us. Left side of the line is solid. RG is solid with a healthy Bleich. The real question marks is where do you put Davis (who is solid) and Carlos (who I think is the weakest on the line but still very serviceable). I like that this unit has some legit depth now too.

4) I really think with the additions of Anae and Beck the passing game goes to the next level. We aren’t gonna be elite passing like Virginia was last year. But I think these guys will know how to use Garrett and the receivers to offset our run game and Tucker. To me that is the key to the whole season is the passing game.


I think the D-line with have some bumps along the way because they are so young but there is talent there to be productive and the linebackers and secondary are loaded to help offset the inexperience there. This team honestly might be the most talented and has the best coaches of any Babers team yet. I know they have a tough schedule but if they can put everything together they can make some noise. I think Dino and the kids know that too

 

[money3189]

My reference is to his tempo.

Gotcha. Keep in mind lots of teams do up tempo, including UVA

 

[upperdeck]

plays break down for lots of reasons.. You can easily find 10-15 TDs lost because of bad throws or drops of pretty simple passes. Have to limit those as they are hard to come by.. Then go back and look at plays perfectly called and blocking mistakes happened, tons of those as well.. Then you have the D just beat the O plays where you might have called the perfect play. the coaches have a much better handle on that. Then we have the plays that we have no idea on. coaches called a play, they have the perfect audible to handle the D as shown and we dont check out or a player goes the wrong way. We have no idea on those how many of those did we have.. We run 60-80 plays a game and you probably have 10-20% of that type of thing happening.

Now when the happen in the running game most of the time is not gain or short loss, when it happens in the passing game its sack/INT/ and we end up on bad down and distance or worse..

How much of that can we cut down on. can we improve 10% so 5-10 plays a game we have a better chance of positive outcomes?

 

[blizz]

Great post and I wanted to add/ask:

Do you think our QB being less of a running threat contributed to the move away from the horizontal passing game?

Not trying to start a back & forth on why/who’s fault (scheme change, DeVito or the poor OL he played behind) but it seemed to me the QB being less of a ground threat allowed opposing defenses to sit on those horizontal routes.

You think this contributed at all or is it chicken/egg (those routes would’ve opened up more running lanes regardless of QB or RB carrying)?

It's a good question. I don't see the QB running situation with Devito as having an effect on the horizontal pass game. In fact, quite the opposite. When executed, streching the defense horizontally should relieve a lot of pressure off the qb and oline. It takes defenders out of the box and makes a blitz from the outside less likely and easier to pick up. Those quick passes out to the flat or in the seam between linebackers are predicated on speed, the ball has to get out of the qb's hands very quickly in order to exploit the reaction of a linebacker reading a pass play. They are equivalent to outside runs, but usually create a little bit of space underneath because of that split second reaction where the read of a pass play causes the defender to initiate a drop back. It was these subtle gaps in coverage (a reactive backpedal, a linebacker lining up deep, a safety lining up three yards short and inside, a corner who's hips are out of phase off the bump) that Devito never seemed to grasp or exploit.

And I don't think Devito was not a threat to run the ball, he was fast enough to be a dangerous runner. More than anything he displayed an unwillingness to run, and clearly teams exploited that tendency. The Babers system doesn't rely on qb mobility so much as the recognition of when there are easy yards for the qb to pick up by tucking and running for an easy gain. Matt Johnson at Bowling Green was nowhere near the athlete Devito is, yet he routinely picked up lots of easy yards by running the ball when the underneath defenders had cleared out to defend against a vertical concept.

 

[money3189]

Then we have the plays that we have no idea on. coaches called a play, they have the perfect audible to handle the D as shown and we dont check out or a player goes the wrong way. We have no idea on those how many of those did we have.. We run 60-80 plays a game and you probably have 10-20% of that type of thing happening.

Some people think a stop by the defense is a bad offensive call. Most of the time its a good play by the defense. I have a buddy that thinks every offensive play should work. lol

 

[SUDadx2]

Babers needs 7 wins or his job is gone

Nonsense

 

[PhatOrange]

Great post and I wanted to add/ask:

Do you think our QB being less of a running threat contributed to the move away from the horizontal passing game?

Not trying to start a back & forth on why/who’s fault (scheme change, DeVito or the poor OL he played behind) but it seemed to me the QB being less of a ground threat allowed opposing defenses to sit on those horizontal routes.

You think this contributed at all or is it chicken/egg (those routes would’ve opened up more running lanes regardless of QB or RB carrying)?

How do these dates align with the changes:

2016 Sean Lewis
2017 Sean Lewis
2018 Mike Lynch
2019 Mike Lynch
2020 Sterlin Gilbert
2021 Sterlin Gilbert

 

[baggerbob]

How do these dates align with the changes:

2016 Sean Lewis
2017 Sean Lewis
2018 Mike Lynch
2019 Mike Lynch
2020 Sterlin Gilbert
2021 Sterlin Gilbert

A Senior Dungey saved Lynch in 2018, by creating plays out of nothing. He even said many times the play calls wouldn't work.

 

[ForCuseSake]

How do these dates align with the changes:

2016 Sean Lewis
2017 Sean Lewis
2018 Mike Lynch
2019 Mike Lynch
2020 Sterlin Gilbert
2021 Sterlin Gilbert

Good question. Not sure because I think the change in QB (Dungey to DeVito) distorts things.

Wonder how the dates align with the changes in OL coaching:

2016 Mike Lynch
2017 Mike Lynch
2018 Mike Cavanaugh
2019 Mike Cavanaugh
2020 Mike Cavanaugh
2021 Mike Schmidt

Edit - That's a lot of Mike's. Maybe we can hire a Tom, Dick or Harry.

 

[upperdeck]

A Senior Dungey saved Lynch in 2018, by creating plays out of nothing. He even said many times the play calls wouldn't work.

you also had a bunch of times ED did not run the plays correctly. coaches were frustrated by that as well..

 

[upperdeck]

Some people think a stop by the defense is a bad offensive call. Most of the time its a good play by the defense. I have a buddy that thinks every offensive play should work. lol

people also have to know what the play was to know why a play didnt work.,. we see a play and no one is open and think its a bad call. But maybe if the X ran the correct route the Y would have been open but when they dont no one gets open.. the D wants to win more than 50% of the time as well. Sometimes you win by play calls and sometimes you win by talent.

 

[money3189]

people also have to know what the play was to know why a play didnt work.,. we see a play and no one is open and think its a bad call. But maybe if the X ran the correct route the Y would have been open but when they dont no one gets open.. the D wants to win more than 50% of the time as well. Sometimes you win by play calls and sometimes you win by talent.

Good points. Something has to give. Most of the time it comes down to my guy is just better than yours.

 

[721Comstock]

It's a good question. I don't see the QB running situation with Devito as having an effect on the horizontal pass game. In fact, quite the opposite. When executed, streching the defense horizontally should relieve a lot of pressure off the qb and oline. It takes defenders out of the box and makes a blitz from the outside less likely and easier to pick up. Those quick passes out to the flat or in the seam between linebackers are predicated on speed, the ball has to get out of the qb's hands very quickly in order to exploit the reaction of a linebacker reading a pass play. They are equivalent to outside runs, but usually create a little bit of space underneath because of that split second reaction where the read of a pass play causes the defender to initiate a drop back. It was these subtle gaps in coverage (a reactive backpedal, a linebacker lining up deep, a safety lining up three yards short and inside, a corner who's hips are out of phase off the bump) that Devito never seemed to grasp or exploit.

And I don't think Devito was not a threat to run the ball, he was fast enough to be a dangerous runner. More than anything he displayed an unwillingness to run, and clearly teams exploited that tendency. The Babers system doesn't rely on qb mobility so much as the recognition of when there are easy yards for the qb to pick up by tucking and running for an easy gain. Matt Johnson at Bowling Green was nowhere near the athlete Devito is, yet he routinely picked up lots of easy yards by running the ball when the underneath defenders had cleared out to defend against a vertical concept.

Yeah, the whole idea of an RPO, where the QB NEVER runs it, is pointless.

Much like how we'd often have Courtney motion across behind the QB to fake the sweep, and NEVER give him the ball.

Fakes don't work if the D knows it's a fake.

We went from extremes: Dungey often too prone to calling his own #, to then Devito NEVER calling his own # to run it.
Clearly the former was much more successful, but that's because ED was a baller who made things happen.

 

[sufandu]

Yeah, the whole idea of an RPO, where the QB NEVER runs it, is pointless.

Much like how we'd often have Courtney motion across behind the QB to fake the sweep, and NEVER give him the ball.

Fakes don't work if the D knows it's a fake.

We went from extremes: Dungey often too prone to calling his own #, to then Devito NEVER calling his own # to run it.
Clearly the former was much more successful, but that's because ED was a baller who made things happen.

The problems with Devito were more complex than that. He ran more when he played this past year, but he's just not a dynamic runner or improviser.

 

[SoBristol]

Good question. Not sure because I think the change in QB (Dungey to DeVito) distorts things.

Wonder how the dates align with the changes in OL coaching:

2016 Mike Lynch
2017 Mike Lynch
2018 Mike Cavanaugh
2019 Mike Cavanaugh
2020 Mike Cavanaugh
2021 Mike Schmidt

Edit - That's a lot of Mike's. Maybe we can hire a Tom, Dick or Harry.

You could also try to align production with the quality, experience, depth and health of what we had in the OL personnel. 2018 was by far the best group. 2019 and 2020 - big issues.
Fortunately, 2022 looks like the OL has more experience, depth, and talent - losing only Servais. Easier for the OL coach to look good when the personnel is better.

 

[timkay99]

I've had the conviction that this shift was personnel driven. I saw Devito as just being unwilling to throw those hook and seam routes to the slot receivers, where the ball had to be delivered into a tight window. On the other hand, I'm not quite sure why we got away from throwing the wide receiver screen pass into the 2x2 stack on the outside. This was an easy throw that Devito was perfectly suited for. This was a bread and butter play for Dungey, but beginning in 2019, it seems to have suddenly gone away.

IMO, this went away because there was no outside blocking and there was a distinct lack of physicality from the WR's, to the point they were physically overpowered by DB's. Went from a specimen in Custis, a physical Butler and Taj (with a physical Ravian Pierce) to Courtney and Taj w/ Luke Benson replacing Pierce. Not exactly a lot of physicality on the outside (though 2 NFL pass catchers).

Will be curious to see what the aerial UVA attack looks like with these WR's, there is more talent at WR presently then there has been in some time. Young, yes. But lot of talent getting honed going against those DB's everyday.

2018 Outside WR
6'3, 194 Devin Butler
6'5, 213 Jamal Custis
6'2, 175 Taj Harris

2018 TE
6'3, 244 Ravian Pierce
6'3, 228 Aaron Hackett
6'0, 282 Chris Elmore

2019 Outside WR
6'1, 191 Trishton Jackson
6'2, 175 Taj Harris

2019 TE
6'3, 234 Aaron Hackett
6'3, 210 Luke Benson
6'0, 295 Chris Elmore