Let’s Talk About the 2022 Syracuse Offense

[kcsu]

Quick game reads and Wr screens is part of everyone's offense. Thats not going away. Some might have to do it more than others based on strength and weakness of the team. Briles ran a power run offense, tempo was just part of it. Power and counter runs was the meat of it. Briles version alone was never used at SU. Dino used his philosophy but had his OC's focused on certain parts. Believe me, all these spread teams run the same stuff they just do it in different ways. Briles took from others to create his system. He also doesnt own the rights of tempo. So many coaches have been running it. Look at the top 11 offenses in the country and tell me what they have in common.View attachment 215906

Money. If everyone is ru ning something similar why was Dino so secretive. No physical playbook etc

 

[money3189]

Money. If everyone is ru ning something similar why was Dino so secretive. No physical playbook etc

All coaches are secretive. Some more than others. They all have their way of running the team. Giving us more access is not going to generate more wins. We can crack jokes and complain ( I do it as well) but its not going to stop them from running the team the way they feel is best. I go on other teams boards all the time. It cracks me up to see all the same complaints we have lol.

 

[blizz]

The system he got recruited for isn’t the system he ran. His strengths were not able to be utilized as we transitioned from that system to something new. His weaknesses went very poorly with bad OL play.

Sometimes it’s wrong guy at the wrong time. He’s not good enough to overcome the challenges he faced here. But that doesn’t mean he won’t at Illinois, as you said

It'll be interesting to watch him at Illinois this year. And will go a long way to answer a lot of questions that we are asking and arguing about here. I hope he plays a lot because it will be fascinating to analyze and contrast with what he did here.

What did you see as his strengths and weaknesses?

 

[money3189]

What did you see as his strengths and weaknesses?

Thats the key. The staff decided to use the strengths of the offense and that was Tucker and Shrader's legs. There wasnt a new system. Just more run focused and slower tempo. I think Devito can be efficient in Illinois offense. We will see.

 

[TheCusian]

Quick game reads and Wr screens is part of everyone's offense. Thats not going away. Some might have to do it more than others based on strength and weakness of the team. Briles ran a power run offense, tempo was just part of it. Power and counter runs was the meat of it. Briles version alone was never used at SU. Dino used his philosophy but had his OC's focused on certain parts. Believe me, all these spread teams run the same stuff they just do it in different ways. Briles took from others to create his system. He also doesnt own the rights of tempo. So many coaches have been running it. Look at the top 11 offenses in the country. I want to say almost all of them run up tempo.View attachment 215906

Fair. When I say "figured out" I think it's a combo of "some of this stuff won't work like it used to" (the defenses have gotten better at stopping it) and it's been gobbled up into normal CFB and broken down for parts. We didn't evolve well and had a QB/OL combo that didn't take to certain realities well.

 

[TheCusian]

It'll be interesting to watch him at Illinois this year. And will go a long way to answer a lot of questions that we are asking and arguing about here. I hope he plays a lot because it will be fascinating to analyze and contrast with what he did here.

What did you see as his strengths and weaknesses?

DeVito?

Pros: strong accurate arm, fairly athletic
Cons: bad under duress, not great at reading quickly and getting the ball out, small-ish

 

[money3189]

Fair. When I say "figured out" I think it's a combo of "some of this stuff won't work like it used to" (the defenses have gotten better at stopping it) and it's been gobbled up into normal CFB and broken down for parts. We didn't evolve well and had a QB/OL combo that didn't take to certain realities well.

I agree with that last sentence. Kendall Briles offense was one of the best in the SEC this past year. Maybe his offense executes at a higher level or his play calling is better. IDK. There is no systems out that DC's havent seen. It doesnt mean their defense is going to stop them either. It comes down to play calling, execution and players.

 

[TheCusian]

I agree with that last sentence. Kendall Briles offense was one of the best in the SEC this past year. Maybe his offense executes at a higher level or his play calling is better. IDK. There is no systems out that DC's havent seen. It doesnt mean their defense is going to stop them either. It comes down to play calling, execution and players.

I think that’s what made the Baylor thing interesting - it was kind of new (though had bones in the air raid) and defenses didn’t know what to do for a long while. It had to evolve but they blew up due to scandal. Maybe Kendall has rebuilt things and evolved well.

I agree that talent and coaching tends to be the most important factors

 

[sufandu]

I think that’s what made the Baylor thing interesting - it was kind of new (though had bones in the air raid) and defenses didn’t know what to do for a long while. It had to evolve but they blew up due to scandal. Maybe Kendall has rebuilt things and evolved well.

I agree that talent and coaching tends to be the most important factors

We don't know if it had to evolve. Nobody had slowed it down before the scandal. We know people from the Briles tree ran it, or versions of it, in a variety of places but that doesn't mean they're as good as Briles at doing it. It's no different than when the west coast offense, or the wishbone, or etc. etc. was the vogue offense. Some were good at it and others weren't as good or were flat out bad.

 

[TheCusian]

We don't know if it had to evolve. Nobody had slowed it down before the scandal. We know people from the Briles tree ran it, or versions of it, in a variety of places but that doesn't mean they're as good as Briles at doing it. It's no different than when the west coast offense, or the wishbone, or etc. etc. was the vogue offense. Some were good at it and others weren't as good or were flat out bad.

It evolved. It’s a fact. It had to. I think if Briles were still coaching (glad he has not) he’d have to change to beat the defenses that grew from his innovations.

Of course some ran it better than others - even every Baylor team had slight differences due to personnel.

What I’m saying is - Dino didn’t go out and get a new OC from out of “the family” because he thought it would be a fun twist. He had to.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

What exactly have defenses done to adjust to the offense?

 

[sufandu]

It evolved. It’s a fact. It had to. I think if Briles were still coaching (glad he has not) he’d have to change to beat the defenses that grew from his innovations.

Of course some ran it better than others - even every Baylor team had slight differences due to personnel.

What I’m saying is - Dino didn’t go out and get a new OC from out of “the family” because he thought it would be a fun twist. He had to.

So your evidence is "it had to." That's not much evidence. Before the scandal, Briles wasn't doing anything different. Sure his personnel dictated differences from year to year, but that's not an evolution of a system. For the teams running an iteration of it, tell me what's being done different. Are alignments different? Are different plays being run? As money3189 said, there's nothing new. All systems pull from previous systems and DC's have seen it all.

I think Dino got an OC from outside the family because he and the accompanying QB coach were the best available. If Kendall Briles was available and interested, maybe he stays in the family.

There just isn't evidence that the system was simply "figured out." Our lack of success isn't much evidence when others are running it successfully.

 

[sutomcat]

What exactly have defenses done to adjust to the offense?

I am not one that believes this.

To my eye, defenses are running run blitzes against us a ton. They are attacking our OL really aggressively, routinely playing press coverage with no help from the safeties.

We want them to make this choice. In theory, we should be able to throw the long ball and get a lot of huge gains passing it deep against single coverage. Long gains running the ball as well.

So I think the scheme is fine.

The problem is that our WRs can’t beat press coverage very often. Our QBs, particularly Devito, have been poor handling the blitz. And our OL and RBs have been bad in pass protection. Only last year was our OL reasonably good run blocking, and only until Carlos got hurt. There was a massive drop off after that happened. The backups were not ready to play.

When Dungey was here, he served as another run threat. That made sending a heavy run blitz at the RB less effective. They had to respect Eric. The same thing happened when Garrett took over at QB.

The OL was a little better when Eric was playing QB than after he graduated. And the WRs have been a lot worse beating man coverage post Dungey.

Incompetent play calling has also played a role. Last year there was problems with Garrett’s throwing accuracy as well.

I totally disagree that the scheme was figured out. That makes no sense to me.

That said, there can always be improvements made in any scheme. Our not throwing the ball to the TE has made it easier to stop the offense. We could throw it to our RBs in space more as well. More motion will confuse the defense and help us. Adding more routes designed to get WRs open (like rub routes) will help a lot. These are all things good offenses do that Dino has for some reason shown little interest in.

Can this group of WRs can open against press coverage? Can the OL get a little better and hold up for a whole season? Can Garrett improve his throwing accuracy?

I think it is a good sign Shrader appears to have taken complete control of the offense. I like a lof of the changes to the offense we are hearing about, even if many are relatively minor.

I believe we are going to be a lot harder to defend in the fall. But time will tell.

 

[TheCusian]

What exactly have defenses done to adjust to the offense?

Beyond my pay grade. But if you google Big 12 defenses and spread offenses - there’s been a sea change in how a league that was dominated by spread offense is now a strong defensive league with far less 50 pt track meet games.

What happened?

 

[TheCusian]

I am not one that believes this.

To my eye, defenses are running run blitzes against us a ton. They are attacking our OL really aggressively, routinely playing press coverage with no help from the safeties.

We want them to make this choice. In theory, we should be able to throw the long ball and get a lot of huge gains passing it deep against single coverage. Long gains running the ball as well.

So I think the scheme is fine.

The problem is that our WRs can’t beat press coverage very often. Our QBs, particularly Devito, have been poor handling the blitz. And our OL and RBs have been bad in pass protection. Only last year was our OL reasonably good run blocking, and only until Carlos got hurt. There was a massive drop off after that happened. The backups were not ready to play.

When Dungey was here, he served as another run threat. That made sending a heavy run blitz at the RB less effective. They had to respect Eric. The same thing happened when Garrett took over at QB.

The OL was a little better when Eric was playing QB than after he graduated. And the WRs have been a lot worse beating man coverage post Dungey.

Incompetent play calling has also played a role. Last year there was problems with Garrett’s throwing accuracy as well.

I totally disagree that the scheme was figured out. That makes no sense to me.

That said, there can always be improvements made in any scheme. Our not throwing the ball to the TE has made it easier to stop the offense. We could throw it to our RBs in space more as well. More motion will confuse the defense and help us. Adding more routes designed to get WRs open (like rub routes) will help a lot. These are all things good offenses do that Dino has for some reason shown little interest in.

Can this group of WRs can open against press coverage? Can the OL get a little better and hold up for a whole season? Can Garrett improve his throwing accuracy?

I think it is a good sign Shrader appears to have taken complete control of the offense. I like a lof of the changes to the offense we are hearing about, even if many are relatively minor.

I believe we are going to be a lot harder to defend in the fall. But time will tell.

The quick reads have evaporated along with tempo. Some of the concepts remain - but the scheme has changed from his first year here and he was forced to. Be it from talent (QB, WR, OL) or defenses getting better.

I agree that we’ll be better this year - by incorporating new concepts/scheme.

 

[SoBristol]

The 2018 OL was the best we’ve had since 2012; and the 2019 and 2020 versions were the opposite. More than a bit of a fall-off.

This 2022 OL has 7 returning players with starting experience and ACC size and at least 3 on the second unit who have the size and talent to contribute. Bergeron is a candidate for all-ACC honors. We haven’t had that experience and depth since at least 2012. This coaching staff, on the offensive side and particularly the OL, has a lot to work with.

Having Shrader in place, taking reps with the 1s from day 1, is another huge advantage for this coaching group. Compare that to last season when you had the struggling Devito (arm talent) taking the majority of reps, and Shrader with a different style and talents beginning to compete.

Of course this offense will be good.

 

[TheCusian]

So your evidence is "it had to." That's not much evidence. Before the scandal, Briles wasn't doing anything different. Sure his personnel dictated differences from year to year, but that's not an evolution of a system. For the teams running an iteration of it, tell me what's being done different. Are alignments different? Are different plays being run? As money3189 said, there's nothing new. All systems pull from previous systems and DC's have seen it all.

I think Dino got an OC from outside the family because he and the accompanying QB coach were the best available. If Kendall Briles was available and interested, maybe he stays in the family.

There just isn't evidence that the system was simply "figured out." Our lack of success isn't much evidence when others are running it successfully.

This is a good place to start: How the hell do you stop Baylor? Part I: What are they doing?

Read up. Let’s talk after.

 

[sufandu]

Beyond my pay grade. But if you google Big 12 defenses and spread offenses - there’s been a sea change in how a league that was dominated by spread offense is now a strong defensive league with far less 50 pt track meet games.

What happened?

Probably changes in coaching regimes, recruiting, etc. Look at the SEC. A traditionally defense oriented league utilizing more spread to be near the top of the country in offense. Alabama, Ole Miss, and Tennessee were all top 10 in total offense at nearly 500ypg. Things shift, especially in college where there is so much player turnover.

 

[TheCusian]

Probably changes in coaching regimes, recruiting, etc. Look at the SEC. A traditionally defense oriented league utilizing more spread to be near the top of the country in offense. Alabama, Ole Miss, and Tennessee were all top 10 in total offense at nearly 500ypg. Things shift, especially in college where there is so much player turnover.

Spread has spread and offenses everywhere have used the concepts at the same time that defenses have gotten better at defending it. That’s an evolution.

Think we’re all talking about the same stuff.

 

[buffalorange]

Thats the key. The staff decided to use the strengths of the offense and that was Tucker and Shrader's legs. There wasnt a new system. Just more run focused and slower tempo. I think Devito can be efficient in Illinois offense. We will see.

TD never got a chance to play with the best line combination we had last year. Shrader's debut coincided with the implementation of that line and TD never saw the field again. I would have liked to see him get some snaps with a line that could provide decent protection, especially with the running threat of Tucker.

I hope TD is a big success at Illinois.

 

[money3189]

TD never got a chance to play with the best line combination we had last year. Shrader's debut coincided with the implementation of that line and TD never saw the field again. I would have liked to see him get some snaps with a line that could provide decent protection, especially with the running threat of Tucker.

I hope TD is a big success at Illinois.

I've watched TD's games over and over. He was a victim of a bad line and he was also a victim of his own head. You have to look beyond the obvious when you evaluate TD's experience at Cuse.

 

[sufandu]

This is a good place to start: How the hell do you stop Baylor? Part I: What are they doing?

Read up. Let’s talk after.

I don't need to. I know that it wasn't stopped and other offenses that were previously more conservative were forced to adapt because of it, regardless of what theory a column proposes.

Did you not just say in post 114 you can't explain what exactly defenses have done to stop it? If you can't explain the what or the how, is it possible you are mistaken in your insistence that the scheme was simply figured out?

Players and coaches are not robots. Football isn't as simple as plug in scheme and if mine is better than yours I win. There are so many factors that determine success or failure. Scheme, the coaches' ability to teach it, the coaches' ability to teach position specific technique, the players' ability to absorb it, player buy in/commitment, physical athletic talent, game planning, in game decision and adjustments from coaches and players, etc.

In this era of advanced stats, I think, in looking at the plethora of numbers, people forget about the nuanced human element of sport, especially on the college level. Anyone that has lined up against an opponent on a court or field understands that. It's an over simplification to state success or failure of an offense is that the scheme was just figured out.

 

[sufandu]

Spread has spread and offenses everywhere have used the concepts at the same time that defenses have gotten better at defending it. That’s an evolution.

Think we’re all talking about the same stuff.

I'm not sure we are. You're insisting a system was figured out. I'm saying others saw that it worked and adopted it or at least parts of it.

I'll make my stance clear and you can decide if we are in agreement. Our problems on offense and the reason we hired the coaches we hired was NOT because the system was figured out by opposing defenses. There are other reasons a system that was closely related to Briles did not work for us beginning in 2019.

 

[orangezen]

Any thoughts if we could use single wing formation .. we. have the personel How to Run the Single Wing Offense (Complete Football Guide)

 

[McNabb2Brominski]

Prediction for 2022: Lamson wins the backup role and sees meaningful playing time this year.