Looking at the depth chart and the Hale analysis

[blizz]

History tells us otherwise. Franklin worked into the LB rotation as a true frosh; Franklin and Bennett were starting LBs as true sophs, and Thomas also played early as a true soph. Shafer's wide receivers Ishmael & Phillips were contributors as true sophs. We aren't talking here about the OL. If the recruiting is going in the right direction, several more of Babers' recruits should be working into roles at skill positions, in the secondary, even LB. And I expect they will.

You made my point for me. How did we do that year with sophomore Zaire Franklin and Parris Bennet as starting LB's?

Working in and making contributions is different than carrying the load. I did say "major contributors" to qualify the point.

Seeing time early is great and we're all rooting for these young guys to get on the field and make plays. If you think we're going to build a winning season this year on the likes of Tyrell Richards and Trill Williams, enjoy your inevitable disappointment.

 

[SoBristol]

….How did we do that year with sophomore Zaire Franklin and Parris Bennet as starting LB's?

Working in and making contributions is different than carrying the load. I did say "major contributors" to qualify the point.

...If you think we're going to build a winning season this year on the likes of Tyrell Richards and Trill Williams, enjoy your inevitable disappointment.

Good rejoinder, though Franklin & Bennett were among the better players in that defense, not the reason for the results. You might remember our DT rotation that season? If you check the depth chart, no one is asking the younger LBs to start in September -- we have two listed seniors at the top, and a bunch of potential contributors potentially pushing for roles.
Babers is looking to build a winning season on a host of veterans -- 18 returning starters (including OT Martin). Is he building on Richards or Trill Williams (did I say that)? Only if they beat out the veterans ahead of them, but sure, Richards may be in the rotation at LB.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Its probably my orange-tinted glasses; I don't see the LB, and by extension, back 7 as a HUGE issue. Issue? Yes. Let's remember that staying healthy is probably most important and we have been trotting out guys who have transferred to low FBS and FCS schools at the end of the last couple of seasons when depth was more of an issue.

I think it's a shame that we brought in some big talented youngsters, and all the previous defensive backs transferred out. What did we lose, five guys back there? Now, I understand that the new guys are bigger and faster, but they are also younger. I'm disappointed that we couldn't have held on to a couple of those guys who left, just for depth. We've lost so many players to injury, playing in this league.

 

[SmilinBob]

I think it's a shame that we brought in some big talented youngsters, and all the previous defensive backs transferred out. What did we lose, five guys back there? Now, I understand that the new guys are bigger and faster, but they are also younger. I'm disappointed that we couldn't have held on to a couple of those guys who left, just for depth. We've lost so many players to injury, playing in this league.

That's why I often wonder if depth will always be an issue. Kids want to play.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

Until proven otherwise, I'm going to believe that we have talent all over the field, and it is just waiting for the chance to reveal itself.

Your belief in Dino is of Heaven's Gate-level proportions.

 

[TheCusian]

I look forward to revisiting this thread.

Do you:

- Mistake question marks for demerits?
- Assume the talent Dino has brought in is the same as Shafer talent?
- Look at last year's last 3 games as the true Dino experience?
- Believe that we've seen Dino's offense run efficiently for more than 2Q at a time?

Hmmm.

 

[jr4750]

Agreed. The LB unit is still young and raw

Fagan is 213 lbs - true soph who played specials last year
Trotter checks in at 206lbs and redshirted last year

These guys are just too small right now.

Armstrong is the backup MIKE - junior

Here's your LB Roster

Ryan Guthrie 6-2 - 224 SR. Cumming, Ga. / West Forsyth
Kielan Whitner 6-0 - 215 SR. Lawrenceville, Ga. / Mountain View

Andrew Armstrong 6-2 - 228 JR. Youngstown, Ohio / Cardinal Mooney
Shyheim Cullen 6-0 - 224 R-JR. Lowell, Mass. / Lowell
Lakiem Williams 6-0 - 234 JR. Tacoma, Wash. / Spanaway Lake

Tim Walton 6-2 - 232 R-SO. Detroit, Mich. / Cass Technical
Nadarius Fagan 6-1 - 213 SO. Goulds, Fla. / Miami Southridge

Kadeem Trotter 6-2 - 206 R-FR. Canton, Ohio / McKinley
Tyrell Richards 6-4 - 227 R-FR. Brampton, Ontario, Canada / Clarkson Secondary School

Tre Allison 6-2 - 230 FR. Tyler, Texas / John Tyler
Juan Wallace 6-2 - 215 FR. Washington, D.C. / IMG Academy (Fla.)

Yikes, looking at this list, I now know why we are going 4-2-5. The depth vs experience is scary thin. (personal caveat being I haven't yet looked at the DB roster) I think we need to maximize the number of downs we have Guthrie/Armstrong out there and hope like crazy they stay healthy enough to get the young guys feet wet in the early season. Everyone down to Richards and potentially further should see a few downs against WMU, Wagner, UCONN. Need to get them live reps and keep the starters fresh. Cordy/Slayton are keys as experienced players. We need both those guys on the field for sure.

 

[chugg21]

Your belief in Dino is of Heaven's Gate-level proportions.

I'd like this 100 times just for that reference.

 

[blizz]

Good rejoinder, though Franklin & Bennett were among the better players in that defense, not the reason for the results. You might remember our DT rotation that season? If you check the depth chart, no one is asking the younger LBs to start in September -- we have two listed seniors at the top, and a bunch of potential contributors potentially pushing for roles.
Babers is looking to build a winning season on a host of veterans -- 18 returning starters (including OT Martin). Is he building on Richards or Trill Williams (did I say that)? Only if they beat out the veterans ahead of them, but sure, Richards may be in the rotation at LB.

What is a rejoinder? Are we exchanging briefs? So I can only quote your words verbatim and not the path of your argument? Just what is your argument? Because you're all over the place. I'm simply saying having superstar expectations of freshmen and sophomores is unrealistic and it would benefit everyone to come back to earth. You want to jump all over me for saying that? Ok.

 

[RF2044]

The progress of our LB corps is going to be a key story to track this year.

I'm not sure that we're going to end up having as big of an issue there as some seem to fear. Also, I would much rather have inexperience at LB than at DL or in the secondary. It is entirely possible that by October, we won't view the LBs as being a "weak spot" - similar to how last year many were tremendously concerned about the defensive line, only for that group to emerge.

Looking forward to getting Williams in for a full camp, seeing what Wallace can do, and of course seeing improvements from the likes of Richards, Fagan, Trotter, and Cullen. I have a feeling we'll be better off at LB than people think, once they get a chance to show what they can do.

 

[007]

The progress of our LB corps is going to be a key story to track this year.

I'm not sure that we're going to end up having as big of an issue there as some seem to fear. Also, I would much rather have inexperience at LB than at DL or in the secondary. It is entirely possible that by October, we won't view the LBs as being a "weak spot" - similar to how last year many were tremendously concerned about the defensive line, only for that group to emerge.

Looking forward to getting Williams in for a full camp, seeing what Wallace can do, and of course seeing improvements from the likes of Fagan, Trotter, and Cullen. I have a feeling we'll be better off at LB than people think, once they get a chance to show what they can do.

Agree with all that RF. Inexperience is never a good thing, especially on D. Pure speculation until we actually see the new guys perform, but I'm hoping the apparent athleticism, speed and size combination that Richards, Shy, Williams, Allison and Wallace seem to have will translate to 1 or 2 of these guys emerging.

 

[upperdeck]

It would really help if he oline is better so we can run and get control of a few games so the other teams become more 1-dimensional. All the D would much easier on the guys who are green

 

[RandomGuy]

It would really help if he oline is better so we can run and get control of a few games so the other teams become more 1-dimensional. All the D would much easier on the guys who are green

That's what Dino said at the ACC kickoff.(that the Oline should help out the def)

 

[Ish88888]

Yes, those are losses, but nearly every team in the ACC lost more to the NFL draft than one player and lost more to graduation generally than we did. We worry about 2 spots on D (the two listed LBs, with Cordy as the nickel) and 2 spots on O (one inside receiver, one outside receiver). Can dwell on that, or also weigh the units that are definitely stronger -- and the sum of the parts is better than we have had since 2012. I believe Guthrie (an all-American in jucos) will be better than expected, and Dino has options for the other LB spot.

It might be a sign of how down our fanbase is -- all we can see is the 4 question marks, not acknowledging that every college team has that many or more.

The fanbase is down and i believe its a combo of having alot of unproven players at lb and safety as well as wr. The defensive worries also stem from the fact we are doing this with young players who are trying to learn the T2 system, a system unproven in college and is thus another level of worry on top of having inexperienced players.

I do like our Dline in particular Slayton, McKinley, ruff, and a few of the young DEs.

 

[Ish88888]

Idk if this is what she means by this, but all fan bases overrate their players. These were very solid players, but they were not irreplaceable players. Syracuse did not lose much that can’t be replaced. As this stat shows, only 1 drafted player. We have a lot of growing to go and a lot of talent that can grow!!

If you dont think we lost significant talen from our lb crew last year, not sure what to tell you. We lost 3 very talented and accomplished kids and leaders ans well as Jonathan Thomas whose speed and coverage ability will be missed. You dont just plug and play lbs. They need reps, they are YOUR leaders on D. They also have alot expected of them im this whacky T2 system.

 

[Ish88888]

Good point but if NCS actually reloaded with talent right behind those guys that were drafted we have a problem here in Upstate NY because they own SU in football. SU needs to beat them at the Dome this year.

They do own us, yes, another "basketball school " that in recent years has been killing it recruiting wise being 3rd or 4th fiddle in the NC college landscape with a DB for a coach and they have been smoking us on and off the field. The talent level there oj both sides of the ball is mind boggling.

 

[Ish88888]

Agreed. The LB unit is still young and raw

Fagan is 213 lbs - true soph who played specials last year
Trotter checks in at 206lbs and redshirted last year

These guys are just too small right now.

Armstrong is the backup MIKE - junior

Here's your LB Roster

Ryan Guthrie 6-2 - 224 SR. Cumming, Ga. / West Forsyth
Kielan Whitner 6-0 - 215 SR. Lawrenceville, Ga. / Mountain View

Andrew Armstrong 6-2 - 228 JR. Youngstown, Ohio / Cardinal Mooney
Shyheim Cullen 6-0 - 224 R-JR. Lowell, Mass. / Lowell
Lakiem Williams 6-0 - 234 JR. Tacoma, Wash. / Spanaway Lake

Tim Walton 6-2 - 232 R-SO. Detroit, Mich. / Cass Technical
Nadarius Fagan 6-1 - 213 SO. Goulds, Fla. / Miami Southridge

Kadeem Trotter 6-2 - 206 R-FR. Canton, Ohio / McKinley
Tyrell Richards 6-4 - 227 R-FR. Brampton, Ontario, Canada / Clarkson Secondary School

Tre Allison 6-2 - 230 FR. Tyler, Texas / John Tyler
Juan Wallace 6-2 - 215 FR. Washington, D.C. / IMG Academy (Fla.)

Agree, trotter and fagan are following in the mould of Jonathan Thomas. It took JT a few years to see the field, rightfully so. yup

 

[SoBristol]

The fanbase is down and i believe its a combo of having alot of unproven players at lb and safety as well as wr. The defensive worries also stem from the fact we are doing this with young players who are trying to learn the T2 system, a system unproven in college and is thus another level of worry on top of having inexperienced players.

I do like our Dline in particular Slayton, McKinley, ruff, and a few of the young DEs.

Agree about the DL -- it is deeper and better than any we have had in several years. And those DEs aren't so young or inexperienced in their 3rd years.

The T2 (whatever its merits) has been Brian Ward's system and now entering its 3rd year at SU. How long does it take for Fredrick, Bradshaw, Whitner, Foster & Cordy (all in their 3rd years with Ward) to learn a system? We have others (Armstrong & Cullen) who are also in their 3rd years with Ward.

If you have to replace a very good LB (Franklin), how about a juco all-American who has been in our program for a year (Guthrie)?

I believe some of the anxiety is not having seen what we actually have at WR in the two Johnson or in the RsF that are moving into to be the second unit DBs (Melifunwo, Stritzinger). But maybe some of the guys can contribute, and we certainly have a solid base of veterans in 18 returning starters.

 

[TheCusian]

I think the lack of LB and WR is starting to get overblown. We are not the first program to lose starters that were good. Most of the players set to take those roles were recruited by Dino for the system.

Inexperienced does not equal bad.

 

[Pearl309]

I think the lack of LB and WR is starting to get overblown. We are not the first program to lose starters that were good. Most of the players set to take those rolls were recruited by Dino for the system.

Inexperienced does not equal bad.

Yeah it’s not like we’re throwing tackling dummies out there in place of Franklin and Bennett.
Until I see any of the new guys get steamrolled or missing assignments. I’m not worried. Whitner gives me some pause but that’s about it

 

[storange]

This team is going to need to average 48pts and 500 yds to get to a winning season this year. Only hope is to be insanely efficient on offense and scoring on almost every possession and hoping for a couple of stops/turnovers a game.

Arena ball or bust.

500yds and 48 pts. So this defense is that terrible. Hmmm

 

[sufandu]

It would really help if he oline is better so we can run and get control of a few games so the other teams become more 1-dimensional. All the D would much easier on the guys who are green

Especially if we can put some of the early games away quickly. Getting starters some rest and young guys some snaps in a couple early games could pay some dividends later in the year.

 

[Newhouser]

If you dont think we lost significant talen from our lb crew last year, not sure what to tell you. We lost 3 very talented and accomplished kids and leaders ans well as Jonathan Thomas whose speed and coverage ability will be missed. You dont just plug and play lbs. They need reps, they are YOUR leaders on D. They also have alot expected of them im this whacky T2 system.

I respectfully disagree a little - good programs plug and play LB's all the time. WR's too. I liked our LB's and they made plays for us, but that in part was attributed to the fact that the rest of the D was not up to par. Year 3 of the Dino experiment should have LB's ready to step up and be just as good IMHO.

 

[Pearl309]

I respectfully disagree a little - good programs plug and play LB's all the time. WR's too. I liked our LB's and they made plays for us, but that in part was attributed to the fact that the rest of the D was not up to par. Year 3 of the Dino experiment should have LB's ready to step up and be just as good IMHO.

100%.
If anyone actually thought Zaire was a game changer I think isn’t watching the games clearly. He was a constant, steady dude with limited athleticism. Sorry. The younger guys have bigger potential and bigger potential to miss on what he was. Agreed. I’m so not worried about this.

 

[TheCusian]

100%.
If anyone actually thought Zaire was a game changer I think isn’t watching the games clearly. He was a constant, steady dude with limited athleticism. Sorry. The younger guys have bigger potential and bigger potential to miss on what he was. Agreed. I’m so not worried about this.

His pro day numbers held up to the guys who got invited to the combine. He was good - but not irreplaceable. Especially in this system that requires more coverage.