Manager in Need of Advice

[chugg21]

So the face-to-face meeting happened this afternoon.

I began by asking if he knew why the meeting was called. He did not.

I asked him if he recalled a text message that was sent to me at 10:30 p.m. Tuesday. He did not.

I asked him to take out his phone and look at our chain of communication. His face did not project to me as someone who was noticing this error for the first time.

Upon this "realization," he said he was sorry, quickly followed by the fact that he had been wanting to discuss with me at the end of the fiscal year some things he thought our group could improve on and things he thought we could do better.

I was extremely patient - did not raise my voice. Expressed my disappointment, disapproval, the breach in trust, making it clear that I thought our relationship was to the point after two years of working together that he could come to me with any issues he had.

He followed up with a bit of a shift, in saying this was a tough time for him, that this year had been tough, he has just bought a house, and that he had allowed little things to bubble up. He also brought up his salary as a concern, which felt sort of convenient as we had discussed all of these things and issues this summer - at length - when all companies were going through pandemic-related issues.

I kept at it and continued to tell him how disappointed I was, until it finally started to sink in I think. He mentioned that he found out that a position was open at another org at the same level as him, starting out at significantly higher a salary. It just so happens the hiring manager is a personal friend.

I told him I would like nothing more than to recommend him for a job that gets him to where he wants to go - but that I needed him to work on the things unrelated to his actual day-to-day job. His relationships with others, the cadence to his questions, his tone and general unwillingness to ever "be wrong".

One of the main things this person struggles with in general is taking all criticisms or critiques personal. Or any perceived slights to heart, making it "all about him" rather than understanding that others have duties and jobs that don't revolve around him. This has been a constant theme and discussion, and it snowballs for him so we discussed that at length.

We continued for about an hour total, and I think by the end I was able to get through to him. He stuck around in the conference room after to decompress when I left, and I am hopeful he makes significant changes to the way he approaches things and is more positive and more open minded about what others have going on. We shall see.

Thanks all for the advice. It helped give me some perspective that was extremely beneficial.

Wild decision to come in and act like you have no idea what happened. Just a really weird coincidence to feel sick and need the next day off and request it in what I imagine was the same text thread as the original text that caused the issue in the 1st place. But nope, had no idea that happened.

 

[SUFan44]

Wild decision to come in and act like you have no idea what happened. Just a really weird coincidence to feel sick and need the next day off and request it in what I imagine was the same text thread as the original text that caused the issue in the 1st place. But nope, had no idea that happened.

He emailed the illness/day off request, no text. But yes, I'm with you. I find it hard to believe with the way people use their phones that he had no idea.

That being said, we are a small staff and are in our busy season so I need him to do his job effectively - which he does.

 

[UpstateSM]

I know this thread is about a specific issue but I would like to bitch about something that just happened to me in case it will help any managers or hiring coordinators here avoid the same mistake.

I went through a really informal application process for a clerk position with an organization just outside of DC. I had a phone "interview" (it was more of a casual conversation) with a staff counsel last Monday and she spent the last 10 minutes of that call detailing the position and what the structure and daily life is like there.

She ended the call by saying that I would hear back by the end of last week or early this week with either a conversation about starting the job or to schedule a follow up interview after she talked to the other candidates. Fast forward to today and I still haven't heard back. Not a call, email, text or anything.

I email the hiring coordinator I went back and forth with before interviewing asking for a timeframe to hear back and she responds in less than an hour telling me that the legal team decided to hire another candidate. Apparently nobody had the thought (or the balls) to, you know, call me and tell me the position was filled when summer is a month or so away.

So yeah, I'm pissed off. Don't do this to people if you're in a position to hire people.

Also, if anyone knows of any summer positions for a rising 3L my pms are open and I'm willing to go wherever. Lol

 

[maxxyz]

So the face-to-face meeting happened this afternoon.

I began by asking if he knew why the meeting was called. He did not.

I asked him if he recalled a text message that was sent to me at 10:30 p.m. Tuesday. He did not.

I asked him to take out his phone and look at our chain of communication. His face did not project to me as someone who was noticing this error for the first time.

Upon this "realization," he said he was sorry, quickly followed by the fact that he had been wanting to discuss with me at the end of the fiscal year some things he thought our group could improve on and things he thought we could do better.

I was extremely patient - did not raise my voice. Expressed my disappointment, disapproval, the breach in trust, making it clear that I thought our relationship was to the point after two years of working together that he could come to me with any issues he had.

He followed up with a bit of a shift, in saying this was a tough time for him, that this year had been tough, he has just bought a house, and that he had allowed little things to bubble up. He also brought up his salary as a concern, which felt sort of convenient as we had discussed all of these things and issues this summer - at length - when all companies were going through pandemic-related issues.

I kept at it and continued to tell him how disappointed I was, until it finally started to sink in I think. He mentioned that he found out that a position was open at another org at the same level as him, starting out at significantly higher a salary. It just so happens the hiring manager is a personal friend.

I told him I would like nothing more than to recommend him for a job that gets him to where he wants to go - but that I needed him to work on the things unrelated to his actual day-to-day job. His relationships with others, the cadence to his questions, his tone and general unwillingness to ever "be wrong".

One of the main things this person struggles with in general is taking all criticisms or critiques personal. Or any perceived slights to heart, making it "all about him" rather than understanding that others have duties and jobs that don't revolve around him. This has been a constant theme and discussion, and it snowballs for him so we discussed that at length.

We continued for about an hour total, and I think by the end I was able to get through to him. He stuck around in the conference room after to decompress when I left, and I am hopeful he makes significant changes to the way he approaches things and is more positive and more open minded about what others have going on. We shall see.

Thanks all for the advice. It helped give me some perspective that was extremely beneficial.

Sounds like he was doing some damage control. I would have respected him more if he came in and apologized first thing. Its a little offensive that he thinks you believe that he had no idea he sent his rant to you by mistake.

My gut reaction to the follow up meeting is that he's going to be a problem for you in the future. I'm going to guess he will feel the need to save face with his co-workers by spreading some propaganda, so be vigilant. But you did the right thing in having the meeting; at the very least you got a better read on where he is at.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I know this thread is about a specific issue but I would like to bitch about something that just happened to me in case it will help any managers or hiring coordinators here avoid the same mistake.

I went through a really informal application process for a clerk position with an organization just outside of DC. I had a phone "interview" (it was more of a casual conversation) with a staff counsel last Monday and she spent the last 10 minutes of that call detailing the position and what the structure and daily life is like there.

She ended the call by saying that I would hear back by the end of last week or early this week with either a conversation about starting the job or to schedule a follow up interview after she talked to the other candidates. Fast forward to today and I still haven't heard back. Not a call, email, text or anything.

I email the hiring coordinator I went back and forth with before interviewing asking for a timeframe to hear back and she responds in less than an hour telling me that the legal team decided to hire another candidate. Apparently nobody had the thought (or the balls) to, you know, call me and tell me the position was filled when summer is a month or so away.

So yeah, I'm pissed off. Don't do this to people if you're in a position to hire people.

Also, if anyone knows of any summer positions for a rising 3L my pms are open and I'm willing to go wherever. Lol

That sucks, man. Unfortunately, it's pretty common.

Last year I had two interviews with a founding CEO. At the end of the 2nd he said that he would send me a document with a little assignment so I could demonstrate my planning process.

He never did. Never responded to my follow up emails. Just ghosted. Seemed weird. This was to be his first VP Marketing as he built out his leadership team.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Note to self... don't accidentally send the DM to SUFan44 when I am complaining about his posts.

I am of course kidding.

Although it reminds me of something. Back in 2012 after I had just moved to Ohio (end of Oct), I was heading back to Syracuse a few weeks after I moved with a girl who lived around here but also graduated from SU a few months earlier. She was going back to hang with some friends still in school so I said screw it, I'm in. She drove. During the drive, there was a Syracuse game on (I cannot remember if it was basketball or football or what), and I was struggling to get score updates on my phone for some reason so I was texting a buddy who was giving me some insights.

At some point, a big time play happened in favor of SU, and in complete over-the-top exaggeration for dramatic effect, I replied to said pro-SU sequence by saying something along the lines of "I am so erect right now". Except my mother had just texted me right around the same time, so I accidently sent that text to her and not my friend. Clearly there was some confusion, and I tried my best to explain what I meant (how do you even do that?).

Once I did realize what happened though, I clearly had some reaction that was noticed by my friend driving, and once I told her what I did she had to pull over on the highway because she was laughing so hard.

Anyway... Hope it all works out!

 

[cliftonparksufan]

So the face-to-face meeting happened this afternoon.

I began by asking if he knew why the meeting was called. He did not.

I asked him if he recalled a text message that was sent to me at 10:30 p.m. Tuesday. He did not.

I asked him to take out his phone and look at our chain of communication. His face did not project to me as someone who was noticing this error for the first time.

Upon this "realization," he said he was sorry, quickly followed by the fact that he had been wanting to discuss with me at the end of the fiscal year some things he thought our group could improve on and things he thought we could do better.

I was extremely patient - did not raise my voice. Expressed my disappointment, disapproval, the breach in trust, making it clear that I thought our relationship was to the point after two years of working together that he could come to me with any issues he had.

He followed up with a bit of a shift, in saying this was a tough time for him, that this year had been tough, he has just bought a house, and that he had allowed little things to bubble up. He also brought up his salary as a concern, which felt sort of convenient as we had discussed all of these things and issues this summer - at length - when all companies were going through pandemic-related issues.

I kept at it and continued to tell him how disappointed I was, until it finally started to sink in I think. He mentioned that he found out that a position was open at another org at the same level as him, starting out at significantly higher a salary. It just so happens the hiring manager is a personal friend.

I told him I would like nothing more than to recommend him for a job that gets him to where he wants to go - but that I needed him to work on the things unrelated to his actual day-to-day job. His relationships with others, the cadence to his questions, his tone and general unwillingness to ever "be wrong".

One of the main things this person struggles with in general is taking all criticisms or critiques personal. Or any perceived slights to heart, making it "all about him" rather than understanding that others have duties and jobs that don't revolve around him. This has been a constant theme and discussion, and it snowballs for him so we discussed that at length.

We continued for about an hour total, and I think by the end I was able to get through to him. He stuck around in the conference room after to decompress when I left, and I am hopeful he makes significant changes to the way he approaches things and is more positive and more open minded about what others have going on. We shall see.

Thanks all for the advice. It helped give me some perspective that was extremely beneficial.

I'm reading this now thinking the meeting was today on a Friday and not yesterday. I'm curious if there was any interaction today. I wonder if he is serious about another offer. It's no surprise that people keep something in the fire. Just in case. A lot of millenials will not think twice about switching jobs so if money is a true issue don't be surprised to get his notice shortly. Two weeks if you are lucky.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm reading this now thinking the meeting was today on a Friday and not yesterday. I'm curious if there was any interaction today. I wonder if he is serious about another offer. It's no surprise that people keep something in the fire. Just in case. A lot of millenials will not think twice about switching jobs so if money is a true issue don't be surprised to get his notice shortly. Two weeks if you are lucky.

Millennials figured out a few things.

1, the biggest pay increases are associated with title changes. So, if a person wants to maximize their income (or feels they need to thanks to soul crushing student loans), getting a promotion as quickly as they can makes sense.

2, but also, at their current company, a person might be looking at a 3% annual increase, but if they're recruited away and join a new company, that recruiter expects that they're going to need to offer something in the neighborhood of 10-20% above to get that employee to jump. And very few companies will make raises that aggressive in order to retain their people.

3, so the best combination really is to get enough experience that a person is an intriguing candidate to be recruited by someone else into a position above where they currently are.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. These are the rules organizations collectively decide they want to play by.

 

[Mareiniss]

So the face-to-face meeting happened this afternoon. ... I asked him to take out his phone and look at our chain of communication. His face did not project to me as someone who was noticing this error for the first time. ... He followed up with a bit of a shift, in saying this was a tough time for him, that this year had been tough, he has just bought a house, and that he had allowed little things to bubble up. He also brought up his salary as a concern ... He mentioned that he found out that a position was open at another org at the same level as him, starting out at significantly higher a salary. It just so happens the hiring manager is a personal friend.

So after calling in "sick," he decided to try to lie his way out of his predicament, and then doubled-down by essentially asking for a raise! That doesn't sound like a formula for long-term success at your organization, IMO. However, there may be a future for him in politics

 

[SUFan44]

I'm reading this now thinking the meeting was today on a Friday and not yesterday. I'm curious if there was any interaction today. I wonder if he is serious about another offer. It's no surprise that people keep something in the fire. Just in case. A lot of millenials will not think twice about switching jobs so if money is a true issue don't be surprised to get his notice shortly. Two weeks if you are lucky.

A lot of interaction today due to a few situations that called for it. Nothing out of the ordinary. No follow-up apology, which is fine but may have been something I would have done.

However, noteworthy that he sent me a text at 7 p.m. telling me he had applied for the other position. Not a total surprise, but given the fact that the hiring manager is a personal friend of mine, and he knows it, I am not sure what his expectation is.

Another fun fact - the hiring manager at the other company already called me earlier in the evening when he applied, and said there was no way he could hire him based on everything he already knows.

 

[orange79]

A lot of interaction today due to a few situations that called for it. Nothing out of the ordinary. No follow-up apology, which is fine but may have been something I would have done.

However, noteworthy that he sent me a text at 7 p.m. telling me he had applied for the other position. Not a total surprise, but given the fact that the hiring manager is a personal friend of mine, and he knows it, I am not sure what his expectation is.

Another fun fact - the hiring manager at the other company already called me earlier in the evening when he applied, and said there was no way he could hire him based on everything he already knows.

Thanks for sharing.

It seems as if the old saw, "You've made your bed..." fits well here.

Hope it all works out for you.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

A lot of interaction today due to a few situations that called for it. Nothing out of the ordinary. No follow-up apology, which is fine but may have been something I would have done.

However, noteworthy that he sent me a text at 7 p.m. telling me he had applied for the other position. Not a total surprise, but given the fact that the hiring manager is a personal friend of mine, and he knows it, I am not sure what his expectation is.

Another fun fact - the hiring manager at the other company already called me earlier in the evening when he applied, and said there was no way he could hire him based on everything he already knows.

I thought the hiring mgr was his friend and not yours. That changes everything for now (until he finds another opportunity). Once he realizes that job won't be offered to him maybe he will value your job more. Doubtful but you never know.

 

[4evaOrange]

This post heightened my anxiety for some reason.

I don’t know why.

 

[UpstateSM]

That sucks, man. Unfortunately, it's pretty common.

Last year I had two interviews with a founding CEO. At the end of the 2nd he said that he would send me a document with a little assignment so I could demonstrate my planning process.

He never did. Never responded to my follow up emails. Just ghosted. Seemed weird. This was to be his first VP Marketing as he built out his leadership team

The higher up you are in whatever relevant hierarchy the less time/respect you’re expected to give other people haha

I guess that’s what separates good leaders from poor ones

 

[Toga]

Call him in on Monday and tell him you were kidding last week and that he's actually fired.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The higher up you are in whatever relevant hierarchy the less time/respect you’re expected to give other people haha

I guess that’s what separates good leaders from poor ones

Yeah, made me feel like I don't really want to work with this guy anyway.

 

[SUFan44]

Yeah, made me feel like I don't really want to work with this guy anyway.

Was similarly put off recently. Long story short, through either a direct source or a “friend of a friend”, my boss was contacted about my application despite my not listing him as a reference or giving permission to contact. He was very good and an advocate for me, but it could have put me in a very bad spot. Really made me question if I wanted to work there, despite the fact it was a shorter commute and more money. Worst of all, they offered the other finalist. If you’re going to do that, you better know that you’re offering the person, right?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Millennials figured out a few things.

1, the biggest pay increases are associated with title changes. So, if a person wants to maximize their income (or feels they need to thanks to soul crushing student loans), getting a promotion as quickly as they can makes sense.

2, but also, at their current company, a person might be looking at a 3% annual increase, but if they're recruited away and join a new company, that recruiter expects that they're going to need to offer something in the neighborhood of 10-20% above to get that employee to jump. And very few companies will make raises that aggressive in order to retain their people.

3, so the best combination really is to get enough experience that a person is an intriguing candidate to be recruited by someone else into a position above where they currently are.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. These are the rules organizations collectively decide they want to play by.

Good post and I find extremely accurate. If people are willing to jump ship there is always a raise out there if your are even slightly above average at your job.

I kind of did that for first 10 years of my career. The issue is you soon become a guy/gal with 15 years experience and 7-8 different jobs. Doesn't look all that good long term.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

So the face-to-face meeting happened this afternoon.

I began by asking if he knew why the meeting was called. He did not.

I asked him if he recalled a text message that was sent to me at 10:30 p.m. Tuesday. He did not.

I asked him to take out his phone and look at our chain of communication. His face did not project to me as someone who was noticing this error for the first time.

Upon this "realization," he said he was sorry, quickly followed by the fact that he had been wanting to discuss with me at the end of the fiscal year some things he thought our group could improve on and things he thought we could do better.

I was extremely patient - did not raise my voice. Expressed my disappointment, disapproval, the breach in trust, making it clear that I thought our relationship was to the point after two years of working together that he could come to me with any issues he had.

He followed up with a bit of a shift, in saying this was a tough time for him, that this year had been tough, he has just bought a house, and that he had allowed little things to bubble up. He also brought up his salary as a concern, which felt sort of convenient as we had discussed all of these things and issues this summer - at length - when all companies were going through pandemic-related issues.

I kept at it and continued to tell him how disappointed I was, until it finally started to sink in I think. He mentioned that he found out that a position was open at another org at the same level as him, starting out at significantly higher a salary. It just so happens the hiring manager is a personal friend.

I told him I would like nothing more than to recommend him for a job that gets him to where he wants to go - but that I needed him to work on the things unrelated to his actual day-to-day job. His relationships with others, the cadence to his questions, his tone and general unwillingness to ever "be wrong".

One of the main things this person struggles with in general is taking all criticisms or critiques personal. Or any perceived slights to heart, making it "all about him" rather than understanding that others have duties and jobs that don't revolve around him. This has been a constant theme and discussion, and it snowballs for him so we discussed that at length.

We continued for about an hour total, and I think by the end I was able to get through to him. He stuck around in the conference room after to decompress when I left, and I am hopeful he makes significant changes to the way he approaches things and is more positive and more open minded about what others have going on. We shall see.

Thanks all for the advice. It helped give me some perspective that was extremely beneficial.

Well done. The flip around is always quite common. Other companies paying more, was hoping for a bigger raise, Going through tough time personally. "Only commenting because I love this company" "we use to do things better". A lot of it is passive aggressive nonsense quietly taking their shots. Divorce with kids always gets me especially if the one who pursued the divorce works for me because rest assured they will be coming to you a year later saying they don't make enough $ etc. They can't afford to ever retire, no money for college, etc. Sounds like you did a nice job of sticking to your guns and staying on task.

Only job I can't do at my place is that of our controller and she knows it. If she left I would be 100% screwed. 100%. Those talks are a bit different but I refuse to beg anyone to stay working here or chase what they perceive to be better offers, just never seems to work. If they leave the right way they are always welcomed back and I would say 50-60% do

 

[Chip]

Only job I can't do at my place is that of our controller and she knows it. If she left I would be 100% screwed. 100%.

I said that same thing about 7 years ago when I started my current job. Then my controller quit on me that year, on July 1 and gave me 2 days' notice.

I ended up hiring someone much better, and we got through it. But that was a dark summer. I was on vacation at the beach with the family the following week, doing interviews and accounting entries. So. much. fun.

As for the job jumping, it's the biggest red flag for us now when reviewing resumes. Even though I did that in the early part of my career too. Glad to be past that.

 

[Roger N]

See him at the end of the day on the Friday of a three day weekend, saying I want to speak with you first thing Monday morning about a text you sent.

And finish it by saying "Enjoy your weekend"

 

[RF2044]

I said that same thing about 7 years ago when I started my current job. Then my controller quit on me that year, on July 1 and gave me 2 days' notice.

I ended up hiring someone much better, and we got through it. But that was a dark summer. I was on vacation at the beach with the family the following week, doing interviews and accounting entries. So. much. fun.

As for the job jumping, it's the biggest red flag for us now when reviewing resumes. Even though I did that in the early part of my career too. Glad to be past that.

I just think it's a different ethic / orientation around job hopping, but there are patterns which suggest good vs. bad. Research shows a much faster path to upward mobility and salary if you hop companies -- and things aren't the way they were vis a vis corporate loyalty toward employees, so it is unrealistic to expect contemporary employees to adhere to the mentality that career "success" is putting their nose to the grindstone and rising up the corporate ranks the old fashioned way.

Good pattern = upward trend of job titles, and staying in jobs for ~2 years or more -- even with hopping.

Bad pattern = tons of jobs, lateral movement in terms of job titles, jobs lasting about 1 year each.

To me, the latter set of stuff implies that the prospective employee is only staying put long enough to show that they don't have the chops, and they are moving on to stay one step ahead of getting canned.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I just think it's a different ethic / orientation around job hopping, but there are patterns which suggest good and bad. Research shows a much faster path to upward mobility and salary if you hop companies -- and things aren't the way they were vis a vis loyalty, so it is unrealistic to expect contemporary employees to adhere to the mentality that career "success" is putting their nose to the grindstone and rising up the corporate ranks the old fashioned way.

Good pattern = upward trend of job titles, and staying in jobs for ~2 years or more -- even with hopping.

Bad pattern = tons of jobs, lateral movement in terms of job titles, jobs lasting about 1 year each.

To me, the latter set of stuff implies that the prospective employee is only staying put long enough to show that they don't have the chops, and they are moving on to stay one step ahead of getting canned.

I've interviewed a lot of young kids that have had more before they reach 21 than I have had in the last 40 years (4 companies). Even in school I worked the same summer job six years in a row. It's a totally different world.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I said that same thing about 7 years ago when I started my current job. Then my controller quit on me that year, on July 1 and gave me 2 days' notice.

I ended up hiring someone much better, and we got through it. But that was a dark summer. I was on vacation at the beach with the family the following week, doing interviews and accounting entries. So. much. fun.

As for the job jumping, it's the biggest red flag for us now when reviewing resumes. Even though I did that in the early part of my career too. Glad to be past that.

Yeah, job hopping is a red flag, but as it's becoming more common I think hiring managers will have to think about it differently.

One thing it makes weird - I still prefer a single page resume, but if you're changing organizations, roles and responsibilities a lot it's pretty difficult for a candidate to capture much of that.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I just think it's a different ethic / orientation around job hopping, but there are patterns which suggest good vs. bad. Research shows a much faster path to upward mobility and salary if you hop companies -- and things aren't the way they were vis a vis corporate loyalty toward employees, so it is unrealistic to expect contemporary employees to adhere to the mentality that career "success" is putting their nose to the grindstone and rising up the corporate ranks the old fashioned way.

Good pattern = upward trend of job titles, and staying in jobs for ~2 years or more -- even with hopping.

Bad pattern = tons of jobs, lateral movement in terms of job titles, jobs lasting about 1 year each.

To me, the latter set of stuff implies that the prospective employee is only staying put long enough to show that they don't have the chops, and they are moving on to stay one step ahead of getting canned.

This is a good way to think about it.

I have a buddy that's an exception, but it's given him an opportunity to be proactive about the short tenure conversation. He's an analyst and went through a really bad divorce that really put the hurt on him financially. So whenever a recruiter reached out to him he took the new job for the pay raise because the income really helped. He's learned that he has to address that I front, and basically admit that he gets the lateral appearing moves look bad, and for the most part gets a positive response when people understand that he was temporarily motivated to do that but now is looking for a much longer term gig.