Manning or Rivers?

[SWC75]

I remember when Peyton Manning and Ryan leaf went #1-2 in the 1998 NFL draft and people wondered whether the Colts or the Chargers got the better player. That became a very easy question to answer. here's a harder one: In 2004, Eli manning and Philip Rivers both were drafted, Manning #1 by the Chargers and Rivers #4 by the Giants. Manning balked at playing in San Diego and so the two teams traded their drafted quarterbacks. Who got the better part of that deal?

Manning started immediately and went on to win two Super Bowls over the mighty Patriots. he's started 228 regular season games and the Giants are 116-112 in those games (.509). He's completed 4755 of 7898 passes (60.4%) for 55,371 yards, (11.6 per completion, 7.0 per attempt) for 357 touchdowns and 237 interceptions (1.5 more TD passes). In the playoffs, he's 8-4 and has completed 242 of 400 (60.5%) for 2,815 yards (11.6/7.0), 18TDs and 9 picks (2.0).
Eli Manning Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Rivers backed up Drew Brees his first two years and became the starter in 2006. He's started 206 regular season games and the Chargers are 117-89 in those games (.568). He's completed 4481 of 6939 passes (.646) for 54,299 yards (12.1 per completion and 7.8 per attempt) for 373 touchdowns and 174 interceptions (2.1 more TDs passes). In the playoffs he's 9-9 and has completed 164 of 272 (60.3%) for 2,165 yards (13.2 per completion and 8.0 per attempt), 11TDs and 9 picks (1.2).
Philip Rivers Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Who got the better of the deal? You could call it a wash since both are likely Hall of Famers. River';s regular season numbers are clearly better. His post season numbers aren't quite as good. His team has won more frequently in the regular season, less frequently in the post season. How many Super Bowl rings would Rivers have had with the Giants?

 

[donniesyracuse]

I remember when Peyton Manning and Ryan leaf went #1-2 in the 1998 NFL draft and people wondered whether the Colts or the Chargers got the better player. That became a very easy question to answer. here's a harder one: In 2004, Eli manning and Philip Rivers both were drafted, Manning #1 by the Chargers and Rivers #4 by the Giants. Manning balked at playing in San Diego and so the two teams traded their drafted quarterbacks. Who got the better part of that deal?

Manning started immediately and went on to win two Super Bowls over the mighty Patriots. he's started 228 regular season games and the Giants are 116-112 in those games (.509). He's completed 4755 of 7898 passes (60.4%) for 55,371 yards, (11.6 per completion, 7.0 per attempt) for 357 touchdowns and 237 interceptions (1.5 more TD passes). In the playoffs, he's 8-4 and has completed 242 of 400 (60.5%) for 2,815 yards (11.6/7.0), 18TDs and 9 picks (2.0).
Eli Manning Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Rivers backed up Drew Brees his first two years and became the starter in 2006. He's started 206 regular season games and the Chargers are 117-89 in those games (.568). He's completed 4481 of 6939 passes (.646) for 54,299 yards (12.1 per completion and 7.8 per attempt) for 373 touchdowns and 174 interceptions (2.1 more TDs passes). In the playoffs he's 9-9 and has completed 164 of 272 (60.3%) for 2,165 yards (13.2 per completion and 8.0 per attempt), 11TDs and 9 picks (1.2).
Philip Rivers Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Who got the better of the deal? You could call it a wash since both are likely Hall of Famers. River';s regular season numbers are clearly better. His post season numbers aren't quite as good. His team has won more frequently in the regular season, less frequently in the post season. How many Super Bowl rings would Rivers have had with the Giants?

Whom did the Chargers get with the picks the Giants traded in that deal? I’m too lazy to look it up.

 

[Day2]

I remember when Peyton Manning and Ryan leaf went #1-2 in the 1998 NFL draft and people wondered whether the Colts or the Chargers got the better player. That became a very easy question to answer. here's a harder one: In 2004, Eli manning and Philip Rivers both were drafted, Manning #1 by the Chargers and Rivers #4 by the Giants. Manning balked at playing in San Diego and so the two teams traded their drafted quarterbacks. Who got the better part of that deal?

Manning started immediately and went on to win two Super Bowls over the mighty Patriots. he's started 228 regular season games and the Giants are 116-112 in those games (.509). He's completed 4755 of 7898 passes (60.4%) for 55,371 yards, (11.6 per completion, 7.0 per attempt) for 357 touchdowns and 237 interceptions (1.5 more TD passes). In the playoffs, he's 8-4 and has completed 242 of 400 (60.5%) for 2,815 yards (11.6/7.0), 18TDs and 9 picks (2.0).
Eli Manning Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Rivers backed up Drew Brees his first two years and became the starter in 2006. He's started 206 regular season games and the Chargers are 117-89 in those games (.568). He's completed 4481 of 6939 passes (.646) for 54,299 yards (12.1 per completion and 7.8 per attempt) for 373 touchdowns and 174 interceptions (2.1 more TDs passes). In the playoffs he's 9-9 and has completed 164 of 272 (60.3%) for 2,165 yards (13.2 per completion and 8.0 per attempt), 11TDs and 9 picks (1.2).
Philip Rivers Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Who got the better of the deal? You could call it a wash since both are likely Hall of Famers. River';s regular season numbers are clearly better. His post season numbers aren't quite as good. His team has won more frequently in the regular season, less frequently in the post season. How many Super Bowl rings would Rivers have had with the Giants?

For now, I'd say the Giants. If the Chargers win the Super Bowl this year (or before Rivers retires), I think it swings the other way.

 

[Trueblue25]

Everyone circle around Alsacs and Kaiser.

 

[Shark58]

2 rings

 

[Alsacs]

Giants won the trade they got 2 rings.
Who is the better QB?
Philip Rivers without doubt.
Clown organization- Chargers
Competent organizations Giants under Arcosi.

 

[Alsacs]

Whom did the Chargers get with the picks the Giants traded in that deal? I’m too lazy to look it up.

Chargers got Lights out Shawn Merriman with the Giants pick in 2005.

 

[OrangeDW]

Chargers got Lights out Shawn Merriman with the Giants pick in 2005.

What a bizarre career he had.

 

[donniesyracuse]

Yeah, I think one has to consider what the Giants gave up (a 1st, 3rd, and 5th). If the Giants stuck with Rivers or even taken Roethlisberger, who knows what pieces they could have added with those three picks?

 

[KaiserUEO]

 

[KaiserUEO]

 

[orange79]

Except here...but no one listens.

{enter Alsacs with numbers and arguments saying Eli sucks and shouldn't be in the HOF but Rivers should. Oh yeah, and Mara sucks too!}

 

[Alsacs]

Except here...but no one listens.

{enter Alsacs with numbers and arguments saying Eli sucks and shouldn't be in the HOF but Rivers should. Oh yeah, and Mara sucks too!}

Once Harold Baines got into the HOF I don’t care anymore about any player getting in.
Rivers sucked last night but he has been a stud QB for a 11-4 team thus far this year and Baltimore is the top ranked defense in the league.

Eli defenders would say if Gates didn’t fumble he is in a position to win that game with 2 minutes left and would excuse Eli/Rivers performance or say the Chargers OL was garbage and why he struggled.

Rivers sucked last night and I am not going to use Eli spin. I hope you guys bring him back as it will continue with the slow starts and being out of it by Halloween. It’s cool annual tradition 5 of the last 6 years.
I wish Giants fans had to deal with the consistent negativity Patriots fans have to deal with from their media for only being 9-5 now. It honestly ruins enjoyment of the sport:

 

[MikeSU02]

Giants won the trade they got 2 rings.
Who is the better QB?
Philip Rivers without doubt.
Clown organization- Chargers
Competent organizations Giants under Arcosi.

I generally agree with this, but there is one other item I’ve always thought about - I think Eli would have been solid in San Diego, Rivers’ personality in NY may not have meshed. He would have had a lot more scrutiny. Not sure if it would have worked out.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Eli is now Mr Perfect Game.

As in, if he doesn’t throw one...he gets killed.

And as for media hate, there’s a lot of NY media guys still butthurt from Eli winning not 1, but 2...Super Bowls, when they’ve been predicting 2-14 for 15 years and now they’re trying to make everyone forget the success and jump on their anti-Eli bandwagon.

You also have to realize in the tri-state area, it’s 50% Giants, 20% jets and 30% fans of the rest of the NFL...so half the town roots against him with just reason.

NE it’s 99.9 pats

 

[orange79]

I wish Giants fans had to deal with the consistent negativity Patriots fans have to deal with from their media for only being 9-5 now. It honestly ruins enjoyment of the sport:

Eli is now Mr Perfect Game.

As in, if he doesn’t throw one...he gets killed.

And as for media hate, there’s a lot of NY media guys still butthurt from Eli winning not 1, but 2...Super Bowls, when they’ve been predicting 2-14 for 15 years and now they’re trying to make everyone forget the success and jump on their anti-Eli bandwagon.

You also have to realize in the tri-state area, it’s 50% Giants, 20% jets and 30% fans of the rest of the NFL...so half the town roots against him with just reason.

NE it’s 99.9 pats

I have lived in MA for the last 8+ years - I proudly wear my Giants gear up here, but Kaiser is right - NE is 99.9% Patriots.

One thing I don't agree on is the media up here being consistently, overly negative. And I'm only talking about print media here - I don't listen to sports radio up here. To me, as a non-NE fan, the coverage seems relatively fair (all towns have their negative Nellies, as my Dad would say). At least the Globe seems fairly balanced, again as a non-NE fan. But I'm used to NYDN/NYPost-type attacks, so...

 

[Alsacs]

I have lived in MA for the last 8+ years - I proudly wear my Giants gear up here, but Kaiser is right - NE is 99.9% Patriots.

One thing I don't agree on is the media up here being consistently, overly negative. And I'm only talking about print media here - I don't listen to sports radio up here. To me, as a non-NE fan, the coverage seems relatively fair (all towns have their negative Nellies, as my Dad would say). At least the Globe seems fairly balanced, again as a non-NE fan. But I'm used to NYDN/NYPost-type attacks, so... View attachment 148204

You think the Globe is balanced?
Maybe for the Red Sox because Henry owns them.
Ben Volin is Trollin’ Ben.
Dan Shaunghnessy has written tomato cans more than anyone. He calls playoff teams tomato cans.
Chris Gasper is so out of touch with the common fan it’s laughable he is a columnist.
Tara Sullivan has written something interesting since she was hired.

The Globe Patriots coverage is laughable bad.

 

[SWC75]

I generally agree with this, but there is one other item I’ve always thought about - I think Eli would have been solid in San Diego, Rivers’ personality in NY may not have meshed. He would have had a lot more scrutiny. Not sure if it would have worked out.

The Nolan Ryan syndrome- Sure he was great elsewhere. But he wasn't a New York kinda guy.

 

[SWC75]

Once Harold Baines got into the HOF I don’t care anymore about any player getting in.
Rivers sucked last night but he has been a stud QB for a 11-4 team thus far this year and Baltimore is the top ranked defense in the league.

Eli defenders would say if Gates didn’t fumble he is in a position to win that game with 2 minutes left and would excuse Eli/Rivers performance or say the Chargers OL was garbage and why he struggled.

Rivers sucked last night and I am not going to use Eli spin. I hope you guys bring him back as it will continue with the slow starts and being out of it by Halloween. It’s cool annual tradition 5 of the last 6 years.
I wish Giants fans had to deal with the consistent negativity Patriots fans have to deal with from their media for only being 9-5 now. It honestly ruins enjoyment of the sport:

Poor Harold Baines. He's the poster child for the guy who had strong career numbers but who never had a great peak. Mr. consistency: Harold Baines Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

He hit .289 lifetime with 384 home runs. His similarity scores include the following Hall of Famers: Tony Perez .279/379; Al Kaline .297/399; Billy Williams .290/426 and Andre Dawson .279/438. I'll throw in Orlando Cepeda .297/379 and Jim Rice .298/382. You gotta make that big splash!

 

[Alsacs]

Poor Harold Baines. He's the poster child for the guy who had strong career numbers but who never had a great peak. Mr. consistency: Harold Baines Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

He hit .289 lifetime with 384 home runs. His similarity scores include the following Hall of Famers: Tony Perez .279/379; Al Kaline .297/399; Billy Williams .290/426 and Andre Dawson .279/438. I'll throw in Orlando Cepeda .297/379 and Jim Rice .298/382. You gotta make that big splash!

He never was top 5 in the MVP in one season.
Which means he was never one of the best players in his league for a single year.
Sorry but being a stat compiler doesn’t make you a HOF it you don’t have 3000 hits or 500 HRs.
Baines selection is terrible and hurts the credibility of that HOF.
He played 20 years and only got MVP votes in 4 seasons.
Jim Rice is borderline but the guy who won an MVP and had tremendous seasons in his prime. Rice had 5 seasons he finished top 5 in the MVP.
Baines best finish in one year was 9th.
A guy like Dale Murphy should be a HOFer way before Baines.
Baines never got close with the writers.

 

[orange79]

You think the Globe is balanced?
Maybe for the Red Sox because Henry owns them.
Ben Volin is Trollin’ Ben.
Dan Shaunghnessy has written tomato cans more than anyone. He calls playoff teams tomato cans.
Chris Gasper is so out of touch with the common fan it’s laughable he is a columnist.
Tara Sullivan has written something interesting since she was hired.

The Globe Patriots coverage is laughable bad.

I'm not looking at it through the same lenses you are.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I hated the trade when it happened. I was at a Yankees - Red Sox game and was pissed. However he gave us two titles so I will never question the trade. I wanted to either take Sean Taylor or trade down and take Big Ben. Had the Giants taken Big Ben they would have kept their pucks they gave to SD and gained picks on top of that. Chances are they may have been better off going that route. But since we will never know, I am ecstatic with the move to get Eli.

 

[SWC75]

He never was top 5 in the MVP in one season.
Which means he was never one of the best players in his league for a single year.
Sorry but being a stat compiler doesn’t make you a HOF it you don’t have 3000 hits or 500 HRs.
Baines selection is terrible and hurts the credibility of that HOF.
He played 20 years and only got MVP votes in 4 seasons.
Jim Rice is borderline but the guy who won an MVP and had tremendous seasons in his prime. Rice had 5 seasons he finished top 5 in the MVP.
Baines best finish in one year was 9th.
A guy like Dale Murphy should be a HOFer way before Baines.
Baines never got close with the writers.

So it's not where you wound up. It's how you got there?

 

[Alsacs]

So it's not where you wound up. It's how you got there?

I just don’t think the numbers say Baines is a HOFer and he doesn’t have the period of time he was dominant as a fallback.
Baines selection is mind boggling. He wasn’t a member of the all 80s decade team.

The all-decade team: the ‘80s | The Hardball Times

Hell a guy like Will Clark is a better HOF candidate than Baines.

 

[SWC75]

I just don’t think the numbers say Baines is a HOFer and he doesn’t have the period of time he was dominant as a fallback.
Baines selection is mind boggling. He wasn’t a member of the all 80s decade team.

The all-decade team: the ‘80s | The Hardball Times

Hell a guy like Will Clark is a better HOF candidate than Baines.

Raising Hal | Articles | Bill James Online

This article by Bill James discusses Baines. Most of it is about a method he uses to imagine if his numbers were "bunched" like the players similar to him, especially Tony Perez. I find that part of it a little dense. But his point that Baines, due to his aching knees, rarely played full seasons is relevant. That might have kept him out of MVP races. if you look at the "per 162 games" line for the similar players who are in the Hall of Fame, it's interesting:

Baines: .289 with 22 home runs 93 rbi 74 runs scored 264 total bases
Harold Baines Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Perez: .279 22 home runs 96rbi 74 runs scored 264 total bases
Tony Perez Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Kaline: .297 23 home runs 90rbi 932 runs scored 271 total bases
Al Kaline Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Williams: .290 28 home runs 96rbi 92 runs scored 299 total bases
Billy Williams Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Dawson: .279 27 home runs 98rbi 85 runs scored 295 total bases
Andre Dawson Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Baines' numbers are almost identical to Perez, who played on high profile teams full of star players. They are only slightly worse than Kaline's. Williams and Dawson were clearly better but not by so much that Baines couldn't join them in this group. Did Baines' hits, homers, rbis, runs scored and bases count any less than theirs? Were their impact on games somehow less? They are all in the Hall of Fame.