Manning or Rivers?

[bpo57]

Poor Harold Baines. He's the poster child for the guy who had strong career numbers but who never had a great peak. Mr. consistency: Harold Baines Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

He hit .289 lifetime with 384 home runs. His similarity scores include the following Hall of Famers: Tony Perez .279/379; Al Kaline .297/399; Billy Williams .290/426 and Andre Dawson .279/438. I'll throw in Orlando Cepeda .297/379 and Jim Rice .298/382. You gotta make that big splash!

At no time during his career did you look at Harold Baines and say yeah he's a HoFer.

 

[br801]

Raising Hal | Articles | Bill James Online

This article by Bill James discusses Baines. Most of it is about a method he uses to imagine if his numbers were "bunched" like the players similar to him, especially Tony Perez. I find that part of it a little dense. But his point that Baines, due to his aching knees, rarely played full seasons is relevant. That might have kept him out of MVP races. if you look at the "per 162 games" line for the similar players who are in the Hall of Fame, it's interesting:

Baines: .289 with 22 home runs 93 rbi 74 runs scored 264 total bases
Harold Baines Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Perez: .279 22 home runs 96rbi 74 runs scored 264 total bases
Tony Perez Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Kaline: .297 23 home runs 90rbi 932 runs scored 271 total bases
Al Kaline Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Williams: .290 28 home runs 96rbi 92 runs scored 299 total bases
Billy Williams Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Dawson: .279 27 home runs 98rbi 85 runs scored 295 total bases
Andre Dawson Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Baines' numbers are almost identical to Perez, who played on high profile teams full of star players. They are only slightly worse than Kaline's. Williams and Dawson were clearly better but not by so much that Baines couldn't join them in this group. Did Baines' hits, homers, rbis, runs scored and bases count any less than theirs? Were their impact on games somehow less? They are all in the Hall of Fame.

Tony Perez never seemed like a Hall of Famer to me during his career, although perhaps that was because he was surrounded by clearly superior talents like Rose, Bench and Morgan. He was a consistently solid hitter, but never great, and was a decidedly mediocre fielder at two positions.

Kaline was an excellent hitter and great right fielder, and almost always the best player on his own team. Billy Williams was a consistently strong hitter and good outfielder who rarely missed a game. Both Kaline and Williams were far superior to Perez, IMO. Dawson was a five-tool star with numerous legitimately great seasons.

Baines is this generation's Tony Perez.

 

[Ghost]

Rivers by a mile. It's not really even close. If you took away Norv Turner and his stupid offense that was designed to get Rivers killed it would be even a greater disparity.

 

[creatorsgam]

Rivers by a mile. It's not really even close. If you took away Norv Turner and his stupid offense that was designed to get Rivers killed it would be even a greater disparity.

Right, it isn’t even close.

2 > 0

 

[Ghost]

Right, it isn’t even close.

2 > 0

It's not - Super Bowls is about the only thing that puts Manning above Rivers. If that's the argument - it's fair as some people put a ton of value on SBs. Otherwise, not really close.

What does Eli do better? Anything? He might have an edge as a runner - a slight edge.

 

[creatorsgam]

It's not - Super Bowls is about the only thing that puts Manning above Rivers. If that's the argument - it's fair as some people put a ton of value on SBs. Otherwise, not really close.

What does Eli do better? Anything? He might have an edge as a runner - a slight edge.

Rivers is a pompous and arrogant hot-head that never would have made it in NY. The kind of guy that threw the ball at his O-line after a false start penalty. Yeah, Captain Crybaby would have been run out of town.

He never did anything with a great cast around him except underachieve. A career loser in big spots with zero leadership ability; put up good numbers in a no-pressure market that doesn’t care about football.

Giants dodged a bullet. They wouldn’t have won a thing with Rivers under center.

 

[OrangeDW]

Rivers is a pompous and arrogant hot-head that never would have made it in NY. The kind of guy that threw the ball at his O-line after a false start penalty. Yeah, Captain Crybaby would have been run out of town.

He never did anything with a great cast around him except underachieve. A career loser in big spots with zero leadership ability; put up good numbers in a no-pressure market that doesn’t care about football.

Giants dodged a bullet. They wouldn’t have won a thing with Rivers under center.

Yup. Eli has been a phenomenal leader and has handled the NY media and BS impeccably. It matters big time too.

 

[Ghost]

Rivers is a pompous and arrogant hot-head that never would have made it in NY. The kind of guy that threw the ball at his O-line after a false start penalty. Yeah, Captain Crybaby would have been run out of town.

He never did anything with a great cast around him except underachieve. A career loser in big spots with zero leadership ability; put up good numbers in a no-pressure market that doesn’t care about football.

Giants dodged a bullet. They wouldn’t have won a thing with Rivers under center.

Huh? They would have made a Super Bowl but for Marlon McRee not taking a knee after picking off Brady - the Chargers take a knee on offense if he takes a knew like any semi-intelligent player would, and the game is over. McRee tries to return the INT, fumbles it back to New England, and the Pats win. That's not on Rivers. Chargers management taking a dive to get out of San Diego isn't on Rivers.

Rivers is one of the nicest dudes in the NFL - he is kind of jackass on the field though at times. Everyone knows that. Almost every reporter in San Diego said he was far nicer, modest fellow than Drew Brees was - he just isn't as marketable.

He never did anything except underachieve? Do you watch football?

 

[creatorsgam]

Huh? They would have made a Super Bowl but for Marlon McRee not taking a knee after picking off Brady - the Chargers take a knee on offense if he takes a knew like any semi-intelligent player would, and the game is over. McRee tries to return the INT, fumbles it back to New England, and the Pats win. That's not on Rivers. Chargers management taking a dive to get out of San Diego isn't on Rivers.

Rivers is one of the nicest dudes in the NFL - he is kind of jackass on the field though at times. Everyone knows that. Almost every reporter in San Diego said he was far nicer, modest fellow than Drew Brees was - he just isn't as marketable.

He never did anything except underachieve? Do you watch football?

Yes, underachieve. With the team he had around him? Dude should have rings. Plural. Not one boneheaded play from a SB. They should have been coasting.

Doesn’t have it between the ears.

Glad he was never a Giant.

 

[Ghost]

Yes, underachieve. With the team he had around him? Dude should have rings. Plural. Not one boneheaded play from a SB. They should have been coasting.

Doesn’t have it between the ears.

Glad he was never a Giant.

What years were the Chargers favored to win anything? Again, I'm happy to give Eli all the credit in the world to the 'Super Bowl victories dictates this decision crowd,' as a lot of people go that route, otherwise, nope, Rivers is clearly the better QB in every way imaginable.

I don't even know what that means. Doesn't have it between the ears? When did he meltdown and cost them a game?

He would have been - but Eli was afraid to tell his Daddy and big Bro, no, when they told him who he had to play for.

 

[Alsacs]

What years were the Chargers favored to win anything? Again, I'm happy to give Eli all the credit in the world to the 'Super Bowl victories dictates this decision crowd,' as a lot of people go that route, otherwise, nope, Rivers is clearly the better QB in every way imaginable.

I don't even know what that means. Doesn't have it between the ears? When did he meltdown and cost them a game?

He would have been - but Eli was afraid to tell his Daddy and big Bro, no, when they told him who he had to play for.

2006 the Chargers were the one seed and as you said Troy Brown won the Patriots that game they had no business winning but they did.
2007 Rivers beat Peyton in Indy and played the AFC title with a torn ACL while LT wore his Darth Vader helmet and tapped out in the first quarter.
2008 Rivers beat Peyton in WC and then lost to Pittsburgh in an ugly game that the refs killed him.
2009 was the real choke by Rivers that loss to the Jets at home in the divisional round was a gag.
2010- to present he has had a garbage organization around him.

I would take Rivers before Eli but Eli has 2 rings which he was clutch in the 4th Q but really rode the defenses to both wins in SB.
Patriots scores 14 and 17 points in both SBs the Giants D was why they won.
Eli has the rings but Rivers is the better QB.

 

[creatorsgam]

What years were the Chargers favored to win anything? Again, I'm happy to give Eli all the credit in the world to the 'Super Bowl victories dictates this decision crowd,' as a lot of people go that route, otherwise, nope, Rivers is clearly the better QB in every way imaginable.

I don't even know what that means. Doesn't have it between the ears? When did he meltdown and cost them a game?

He would have been - but Eli was afraid to tell his Daddy and big Bro, no, when they told him who he had to play for.

They had a great team of players yet never had a lot of postseason success. QB is the most important on the field; he has to be accountable.

Between the ears... the context was meant for NY, not SD where nobody cares. No way he would have handled the pressure of playing there. So even as a better overall quarterback, no chance he is the same player in NY. That matters.

Continue being a Rivers stan. He has great numbers. But this is a complete hypothetical situation. So while it was fun to channel my inner Bob Ryan/Woody Paige and go full on Around the Horn debate here with you, I don’t care enough to keep going.

I’m glad the trade was made. No way of ever knowing how it would have gone otherwise.

 

[Ghost]

2006 the Chargers were the one seed and as you said Troy Brown won the Patriots that game they had no business winning but they did.
2007 Rivers beat Peyton in Indy and played the AFC title with a torn ACL while LT wore his Darth Vader helmet and tapped out in the first quarter.
2008 Rivers beat Peyton in WC and then lost to Pittsburgh in an ugly game that the refs killed him.
2009 was the real choke by Rivers that loss to the Jets at home in the divisional round was a gag.
2010- to present he has had a garbage organization around him.

I would take Rivers before Eli but Eli has 2 rings which he was clutch in the 4th Q but really rode the defenses to both wins in SB.
Patriots scores 14 and 17 points in both SBs the Giants D was why they won.
Eli has the rings but Rivers is the better QB.

Okay, 2009 was not entirely Rivers. That was the year that Cromartie had a clean shot lined up on the Jets RB to make the stop on 3rd or 4th and long in the 4th, and chose to slow down to avoid having to attempt to touch someone on defense. As he was prone to do...but in the playoffs???????

That wasn't even the first time that game where he did that. He likely was throwing the game...because he's an idiot and wanted to see what it felt like to throw a game.

 

[Ghost]

They had a great team of players yet never had a lot of postseason success. QB is the most important on the field; he has to be accountable.

Between the ears... the context was meant for NY, not SD where nobody cares. No way he would have handled the pressure of playing there. So even as a better overall quarterback, no chance he is the same player in NY. That matters.

Continue being a Rivers stan. He has great numbers. But this is a complete hypothetical situation. So while it was fun to channel my inner Bob Ryan/Woody Paige and go full on Around the Horn debate here with you, I don’t care enough to keep going.

I’m glad the trade was made. No way of ever knowing how it would have gone otherwise.

"No way of ever knowing how it would have gone otherwise."

But you say earlier that "no way he would have handled the pressure of playing here." Okay. That makes sense.

Fine, well, I know that Rivers would have won 2 SBs in New York if he played for the Jets. So, it falls back on everything else, and Rivers handily wins in those categories - soooo, Rivers is the better QB. Done.

 

[creatorsgam]

"No way of ever knowing how it would have gone otherwise."

But you say earlier that "no way he would have handled the pressure of playing here." Okay. That makes sense.

Fine, well, I know that Rivers would have won 2 SBs in New York if he played for the Jets. So, it falls back on everything else, and Rivers handily wins in those categories - soooo, Rivers is the better QB. Done.

Yes, no way of knowing how it would have gone otherwise. Many different scenarios could have played out but none of those involve Rivers winning in NY. That is about as certain as it gets. They would have booted him after 3 seasons, gone a different direction, and who knows? Maybe they win 5 straight SB’s with a different QB and the draft picks they saved. Or maybe Rivers gets traded to a different team and they help him get some jewelry.

I get that you love him and apparently everyone knows he is one of the nicest guys in the NFL (anecdotal reports from several people in the Raleigh area suggest this is not the case, but I’ve never met him). I think that is wonderful.

For now he is a career loser with nice numbers. Nothing more.

I’ll gladly take the L here if you stop quoting me so I’m not tagged on this thread again. I see that this is kind of a big deal to you.

 

[Ghost]

Yes, no way of knowing how it would have gone otherwise. Many different scenarios could have played out but none of those involve Rivers winning in NY. That is about as certain as it gets. They would have booted him after 3 seasons, gone a different direction, and who knows? Maybe they win 5 straight SB’s with a different QB and the draft picks they saved. Or maybe Rivers gets traded to a different team and they help him get some jewelry.

I get that you love him and apparently everyone knows he is one of the nicest guys in the NFL (anecdotal reports from several people in the Raleigh area suggest this is not the case, but I’ve never met him). I think that is wonderful.

For now he is a career loser with nice numbers. Nothing more.

I’ll gladly take the L here if you stop quoting me so I’m not tagged on this thread again. I see that this is kind of a big deal to you.

You already said you were done (and replied yet again) - so it seems like a bigger deal to you.

You dismissed stats and moved into hypotheticals, and now dismiss hypotheticals you don't agree with. You have the Super Bowls - if that's the totality of your argument, fantastic. Otherwise, Rivers wins in almost every statistical category. He's just been better and pretty much throughout their entire careers.

Manning's first act going into the NFL was to put himself into a better situation because the challenge of playing for a franchise that was an utter disaster was too daunting. That was the Manning's own reasoning. He chose his own destiny. Giving him all the credit in the world for taking on the challenge of picking the best scenario possible for himself is kind of insane.

He played in NY! He chose that because it was the better situation - by far.

What a daring move, playing in New York, a situation he chose because playing for the biggest dud of a franchise in the NFL was too scary. Yes, he takes on all challenges. He picked NY. Not many NFL QBs have that luxury...maybe like one other.

 

[KaiserUEO]

To sum up, this ghost guy doesn’t like Eli because of the draft.


The rest is just horsehit.

 

[Ghost]

To sum up, this ghost guy doesn’t like Eli because of the draft.


The rest is just horsehit.

Just tell me where Manning excels that Rivers hasn't, back up statistically.

Again, if Super Bowls is heavily weighted, I give Manning the edge. It's undeniable. He's better than Drew Brees as well if that's the ultimate measure.

If the question is who is the better QB, Rivers just is. Advanced stats has Eli as below average for his career. Rivers is well above that.

Seriously, Giants fans are a strange bunch to argue about when it comes to Eli, makes me think it may be the easiest job in the NFL being their QB, considering how many starting QBs they've had since 1980 (amongst the least for sure) and how passionate they are defending their QBs.

Rivers, Brees, Brady, Peyton, Steve Young and Aaron Rogers are the only QBs with 4 or more seasons of 100+ passer ratings on over 400 attempts. Rivers played for a ridiculous franchise that fired a coach the year he went 14-2, and hired the coach with (I'm fairly certain I'm remembering this fact correctly) the worst winning percentage in NFL history at the time he was hired for someone that had coached over 50 games. Norv!!!!

Eli meanwhile is an interception machine, and more akin to a Jim Plunkett. A Super Bowl hero, but for his career, a fairly pedestrian QB. Eli has always seemed like a good guy though, unlike his brother.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Just tell me where Manning excels that Rivers hasn't, back up statistically.

Again, if Super Bowls is heavily weighted, I give Manning the edge. It's undeniable. He's better than Drew Brees as well if that's the ultimate measure.

If the question is who is the better QB, Rivers just is. Advanced stats has Eli as below average for his career. Rivers is well above that.

Seriously, Giants fans are a strange bunch to argue about when it comes to Eli, makes me think it may be the easiest job in the NFL being their QB, considering how many starting QBs they've had since 1980 (amongst the least for sure) and how passionate they are defending their QBs.

Rivers, Brees, Brady, Peyton, Steve Young and Aaron Rogers are the only QBs with 4 or more seasons of 100+ passer ratings on over 400 attempts. Rivers played for a franchise that fired a coach the year he went 14-2.

Eli meanwhile is an interception machine, and more akin to a Jim Plunkett. A Super Bowl hero, but for his career, a fairly pedestrian QB. Eli has always seemed like a good guy though, unlike his brother.

Rivers excelled at playing with HOFers on offense in sunny, warm Southern California, while Eli excelled at playing with horsehit WRs, subpar OLs and in the snow and rain of Northern NJ.

His INTs are so overrated it’s ridiculous. I’ve seen every pass, many of them 2 and 3x and his WRs are to blame for easily half.

Mentioning Plunkett proves you have done no homework to develop your opinion.

Both are going to the Hall, 1 because he puts up fancy nice regular season #s, one because he puts up nearly the same in the regular season...but is a balls out stone cold killer in he playoffs.

You cannot tell the story of the NFL this century without A chapter on Eli.

End of story.

 

[Alsacs]

Eli has 241 starts.
Rivers has 216 starts.
Eli career record 124-117
Rivers career record 121-95

The Super Bowls are a big thing for Eli but the guy hasn’t even gotten MvP or all-pro votes any season.
Rivers has had seasons he has been a top 5 QB.

Rivers is the better QB. Eli has the jewelry.
Now that Harold Baines is an MLB HOFer Eli is getting in the NFL one even though he has never been a top 5 QB in a single season.

 

[Ghost]

Rivers excelled at playing with HOFers on offense in sunny, warm Southern California, while Eli excelled at playing with horsehit WRs, subpar OLs and in the snow and rain of Northern NJ.

His INTs are so overrated it’s ridiculous. I’ve seen every pass, many of them 2 and 3x and his WRs are to blame for easily half.

Mentioning Plunkett proves you have done no homework to develop your opinion.

Both are going to the Hall, 1 because he puts up fancy nice regular season #s, one because he puts up nearly the same in the regular season...but is a balls out stone cold killer in he playoffs.

You cannot tell the story of the NFL this century without A chapter on Eli.

End of story.

No, I get you - all those other QBs on the list with Rivers played in warm weather climates too. That's such a lame excuse. Eli in warm weather is the same as Eli in cold weather. Pedestrian. He's a great playoff QB (for two seasons) - and those were amazing defensive performances by the Giants. Eli was insanely clutch as well. I can't argue that. I wouldn't dream of it.

Statistically though, at the end of the day, he's average at best. He's on par with Plunkett, pedestrian career, 2 rings. He belongs in the HOF, definitely, and agree that the Giants beating the Patriots alone deserves a chapter and Eli was an integral part of that. Most of the NFL would be thrilled to have a QB like him, with the longevity and sustained good play, but he's never been close to elite - in spite of all the interceptions that were clearly not his fault.

Rivers played for a joke of an organization, a crap offensive line, terrible coaches, and the WRs were about the same.

 

[Alsacs]

Rivers excelled at playing with HOFers on offense in sunny, warm Southern California, while Eli excelled at playing with horsehit WRs, subpar OLs and in the snow and rain of Northern NJ.

His INTs are so overrated it’s ridiculous. I’ve seen every pass, many of them 2 and 3x and his WRs are to blame for easily half.

Mentioning Plunkett proves you have done no homework to develop your opinion.

Both are going to the Hall, 1 because he puts up fancy nice regular season #s, one because he puts up nearly the same in the regular season...but is a balls out stone cold killer in he playoffs.

You cannot tell the story of the NFL this century without A chapter on Eli.

End of story.

If the 2006-2009 Chargers had Tom Coughlin then Philip Rivers has a title:
Coughlin isn’t Belichick but because they were both assistants to Parcells Coughlin is the best coach the last 15 years to not be intimidated by Belichick and screw up.

Bringing Eli back next year is so dumb but you guys will do it. Start the season off slow, be out of the playoffs by Halloween, play the Patriots insanely tough at Gillette it will be a game that can go either way and after you guys blow your wad against the Pats will tank to get a QB in the draft.

 

[Ghost]

Both are going to the Hall, 1 because he puts up fancy nice regular season #s, one because he puts up nearly the same in the regular season...but is a balls out stone cold killer in he playoffs.

Also, he had two great postseason performances. A stone cold killer isn't quite accurate. He had 2 pretty abysmal appearances, and 2 semi-decent appearances. Rivers was pretty decent in most of his - with one really bad one and a couple really good showings.

Eli won a playoff game 2 times in 6 attempts (and amazingly won 4 in each of those)

Rivers won a playoff game in 3 of 5 appearances

 

[KaiserUEO]

Also, he had two great postseason performances. A stone cold killer isn't quite accurate. He had 2 pretty abysmal appearances, and 2 semi-decent appearances. Rivers was pretty decent in most of his - with one really bad one and a couple really good showings.

Eli won a playoff game 2 times in 6 attempts (and amazingly won 4 in each of those)

Rivers won a playoff game in 3 of 5 appearances

Wait, what???

Rivers, this all world regular season QB I’ve read so much about, has only to been the playoffs 5x????!!!!

Oh my.

I may have to rethink him for the HOF...

 

[Ghost]

Wait, what???

Rivers, this all world regular season QB I’ve read so much about, has only to been the playoffs 5x????!!!!

Oh my.

I may have to rethink him for the HOF...

Well, 6 after this year. So, same as Eli - with one of the most amazingly inept franchises imaginable.

I'm arguing better QB - not playoffs. I readily concede Eli had two amazing postseason runs - and it can't be questioned. He stands above Rivers in that category. No doubt. I wouldn't swap one for the other...

Plunkett was 8-2. What do I care? I don't think Plunkett is a HOF'er either. Just a pedestrian QB with a nice career otherwise and two rings - it doesn't place him amongst the elite at his position for his career.

My point is - Rivers has been a great QB throughout his career. Manning, not so much. That being said, Manning has had an amazing tenure as the Giants QB, and has a lot of VERY impressive achievements. He just was never elite when compared to his peers.