Mark Cuban says 'horrible' state of college basketball hurting NBA

[NineOneSeven]

I agree with just about everything people have said about the NBA in this thread.

HOWEVER, many posters seem to be painting with a broad brush. Sure, the quality of play from the San Antonios, Golden States, Clevelands, etc. is amazing high. And the intensity / quality of play ratchets up exponentially in the second round of the playoffs, after the deadweight has been trimmed.

But not every team plays at that level. It is one thing to point to the great teams and discuss how fantastic they play, and how consistent they are. But I invite you to watch a Minnesota game, or a Knicks game, or a Lakers game, and you'll see a completely different level of play.

There is no question that the elite teams [and even the good teams] play at a level that is far superior to NCAA basketball. Can't be disputed.

But there is also a lot of low quality ball played in the NBA that many NBA advocates conveniently fail to bring up when defending the professional game.

Absolutely. Lots of stars are combined on teams due to $$ and better general management. At the end of the day, it is still a business.

But, there are also the BC's of the ACC.

 

[shandeezy7]

Good God that is horrifying

 

[Hoov50]

Mark Cuban is a smart man (some of the time). The lack of consistency and "legal" physicality of college basketball has killed my love for the game. With the exception of Syracuse games, I literally watched 2 and a half full games this year, and those were just because I thought Kentucky was going to lose.

In my view it started about 15 years ago in the Big 10 and has poisoned NCAA basketball from there. The Big 10 allowed football tactics to bleed onto the basketball court, bodying up dribblers, grabbing and clutching players who are cutting without the ball, lowering shoulders in the paint (on both offense and defense) to get separation. From the Big 10 it spread to the Pitts and Marquettes of the world, the teams with minimal talent and coaching, but that could use physical play to compete with the big boys. Now it has spread like the black plague to all of college basketball.

Look at SU's lack of offensive flow the past 4-5 years and Kentucky's complete lack of offense, on what some people were arguing was a top 5-10 team of all-time this year! If you put this year's Kentucky against any of the national championship teams from the 90's with officiating from the 90's and they lose by 15-20 points! Teams, including SU, get away with having very little offensive playmakers begin seasons 25-0 because of defense (at least we aren't fouling 90% of the time). Two of our "best" offensive players the past 5 years are ranked in the top 4 when it comes to offensive inefficiency in the NBA!

In the NBA players play defense the way it is written in the rule book. They play defense with their feet, not with their bodies. For the NCAA fans out there they see this as a lack of defense, because they have been brainwashed by the ridiculous way the college games are officiated.

 

[longislandcuse]

I agree with just about everything people have said about the NBA in this thread.

HOWEVER, many posters seem to be painting with a broad brush. Sure, the quality of play from the San Antonios, Golden States, Clevelands, etc. is amazing high. And the intensity / quality of play ratchets up exponentially in the second round of the playoffs, after the deadweight has been trimmed.

But not every team plays at that level. It is one thing to point to the great teams and discuss how fantastic they play, and how consistent they are. But I invite you to watch a Minnesota game, or a Knicks game, or a Lakers game, and you'll see a completely different level of play.

There is no question that the elite teams [and even the good teams] play at a level that is far superior to NCAA basketball. Can't be disputed.

But there is also a lot of low quality ball played in the NBA that many NBA advocates conveniently fail to bring up when defending the professional game.

Definitely true but same goes for watching a Jacksonville Jaguars vs Tampa Bay Buccaneers game. You're always going to have teams that put out a poor product.

 

[Alsacs]

When I read Mark Cuban's comments I though of Matt Howard. That kid was never going to be pro, but basically turned college hoops into the roller derby with how physical he played. He probably committed 10 fouls a game minimum and because three blind mice can't clean up the game it became a trend to muck the game up.

College Football is wildly popular because the game resembles football. They have different rules, 1 foot inbounds for completion, stop clock on first down, 15 PI penalty, but the game is football. If college hoops worked and cared about the product the game would become more popular and create more revenue.

 

[CuseTG2003]

Mark Cuban is a smart man (some of the time). The lack of consistency and "legal" physicality of college basketball has killed my love for the game. With the exception of Syracuse games, I literally watch 2 and a half full games this year, and those were just because I thought Kentucky was going to lose.

In my view it started about 15 years ago in the Big 10 and has poisoned NCAA basketball from there. The Big 10 allowed football tactics to bleed onto the basketball court, bodying up dribblers, grabbing and clutching players who are cutting without the ball, lowering shoulders in the paint (on both offense and defense) to get separation. From the Big 10 it spread to the Pitts and Marquettes of the world, the teams with minimal talent and coaching, but that could use physical play to compete with the big boys. Now it has spread like the black plague to all of college basketball.

Look at SU's lack of offensive flow the past 4-5 years and Kentucky's complete lack of offense, on what some people were arguing was a top 5-10 team of all-time this year! If you put this year's Kentucky against any of the national championship teams from the 90's with officiating from the 90's and they lose by 15-20 points! Teams, including SU, get away with having very little offensive playmakers begin seasons 25-0 because of defense (at least we aren't fouling 90% of the time). Two of our "best" offensive players the past 5 years are ranked in the top 4 when it comes to offensive inefficiency in the NBA!

In the NBA players play defense the way it is written in the rule book. They play defense with their feet, not with their bodies. For the NCAA fans out there they see this as a lack of defense, because they have been brainwashed by the ridiculous way the college games are officiated.

Great, great post. Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Lawrinson14]

Mark is correct is his assessment. Off the top of my head, here are all the things wrong with college basketball (ignoring the obvious 1 and done crap):

1. Refs
2. Charge/Block call (personally, I think it should just be a play on since no one can get it right)
3. reliance on 3 pt shooting/3 pt line needs to be moved back
4. Shot clock
5. No defensive 3 seconds allows defenders to pack the paint
6. 10 second reset if player or coach calls timeout when bringing the ball up court
7. HAND CHECKING. MY GOD I HATE HAND CHECKING. if you put your hands on the ball handler, it should be a damn foul. Period.
8. The stupid elbow/hand/enter body part here hitting above the neck = flagrant foul
9. Reliance on monitor reviews
10. too many timeouts given to teams, especially considering they get a tv timeout every four minutes
11. Destruction of rivalries caused by realignment
12. Jump ball should give possession to the defense

 

[Alsacs]

Mark is correct is his assessment. Off the top of my head, here are all the things wrong with college basketball (ignoring the obvious 1 and done crap):

1. Refs
2. Charge/Block call (personally, I think it should just be a play on since no one can get it right)
3. reliance on 3 pt shooting/3 pt line needs to be moved back
4. Shot clock
5. No defensive 3 seconds allows defenders to pack the paint
6. 10 second reset if player or coach calls timeout when bringing the ball up court
7. HAND CHECKING. MY GOD I HATE HAND CHECKING. if you put your hands on the ball handler, it should be a damn foul. Period.
8. The stupid elbow/hand/enter body part here hitting above the neck = flagrant foul
9. Reliance on monitor reviews
10. too many timeouts given to teams, especially considering they get a tv timeout every four minutes
11. Destruction of rivalries caused by realignment
12. Jump ball should give possession to the defense

Dan Dakich ‏@dandakich

If you played a College Drinking Game = shot for every late clock high ball screen..BLATTO by 1st Media Timeout

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I agree with just about everything people have said about the NBA in this thread.

HOWEVER, many posters seem to be painting with a broad brush. Sure, the quality of play from the San Antonios, Golden States, Clevelands, etc. is amazing high. And the intensity / quality of play ratchets up exponentially in the second round of the playoffs, after the deadweight has been trimmed.

But not every team plays at that level. It is one thing to point to the great teams and discuss how fantastic they play, and how consistent they are. But I invite you to watch a Minnesota game, or a Knicks game, or a Lakers game, and you'll see a completely different level of play.

There is no question that the elite teams [and even the good teams] play at a level that is far superior to NCAA basketball. Can't be disputed.

But there is also a lot of low quality ball played in the NBA that many NBA advocates conveniently fail to bring up when defending the professional game.

When two bad teams play each other in the NBA, no doubt, it's bad basketball.

But if you get evening a middling team against a bad team, it's good basketball. I watch a lot of Jazz these days. They're improving, but half their roster right now is D-league due to injuries, and the games are still super fun when they play anybody of any consequence at all.

 

[CuseCPT]

Mark is correct is his assessment. Off the top of my head, here are all the things wrong with college basketball (ignoring the obvious 1 and done crap):

1. Refs
2. Charge/Block call (personally, I think it should just be a play on since no one can get it right)
3. reliance on 3 pt shooting/3 pt line needs to be moved back
4. Shot clock
5. No defensive 3 seconds allows defenders to pack the paint
6. 10 second reset if player or coach calls timeout when bringing the ball up court
7. HAND CHECKING. MY GOD I HATE HAND CHECKING. if you put your hands on the ball handler, it should be a damn foul. Period.
8. The stupid elbow/hand/enter body part here hitting above the neck = flagrant foul
9. Reliance on monitor reviews
10. too many timeouts given to teams, especially considering they get a tv timeout every four minutes
11. Destruction of rivalries caused by realignment
12. Jump ball should give possession to the defense

Disagree with #8. I think the flagrant rules are fine. But otherwise, agree on all points.

 

[FortyFourCT]

There are over 300 teams in NCAA, if you can't find great NCAA basketball to watch, you are not trying. Did you watch the tournament this year? Yeah scoring is down a bit and there are a few things that can help improve the game, but that is true in every sport. College hoops is still a gem. The game is fine, the passion is unmatched and the tournament is the best thing in sports. Again, yes, some tweaks need to be made, just like in every sport. You can like the NBA, or even prefer it, Mr. Cuban, don't blame the NCAA for the boring product (IMO) that is the NBA.

 

[Brooky03]

There's a big distinction between NBA regular season ball and the playoffs. NBA regular season games are atrocious to watch. NBA playoff games are beautiful.

It's weird.

 

[Lawrinson14]

There are over 300 teams in NCAA, if you can't find great NCAA basketball to watch, you are not trying.

That's the issue in a nutshell. Remember when you didn't have to search for a good game? When you could just tune into Big Monday or Super Tuesday and watch 4 entertaining games?

Now all you get are slow, dull foul fests with scores like 52-64 or 48-55.

Also, don't even get me started on how useless the college basketball regular season is. A team could win 30+ games in the regular season + their conference tournament, but if they lose in the NCAA tournament the year is considered a failure. Honestly, the college basketball regular season means about as much as spring training baseball. Really, you only have to watch in March.

 

[Madbiker]

Certainly the officiating in college games is bad and I have commented on that before. But college basketball is not dying and it is not unwatchable. The NCAAT was terrific this year with a lot of great games. TV ratings are strong. This year was the best in years. It's true that the overall quality of play is down from 15-20 years ago. But the biggest reason for that is the NBA and it's idiotic policy of pulling all the young talent out after 1 year of college, especially players that are by no means ready to play in the league and would benefit greatly from developing their skills further. The NBA is the biggest driver of the college game's problems. I don't expect anyone in the NBA to say it though.

 

[Alsacs]

The game was better played when we their was a 45 second shot clock in 1980's and early 90's. Back then teams actually ran offense and didn't burn 20-25 seconds every possession like they do now.

NBA has a 24 second shot clock and while not all the games are great because they play 82 games and have a lot of back to backs the game is just so much better played. College hoops is dying it has become a 1 month sport and the games are just not great to watch.

 

[OrangeDW]

He is spot on.

I used to be able to name the teams that I hated because they played an awful style of ball...

Because:

- There's no defense
- No team ball
- Players don't care and are only in it for the money

The last one is my favorite. Guys who have been playing the game their entire lives, don't care.

Or "It's street ball!"

Or even worse, "it's a bunch of thugs playing street ball!" Usually people who say that liked the 80's Celtics because they were great and had a lot of white guys. After that, they checked out.

 

[FortyFourCT]

Certainly the officiating in college games is bad and I have commented on that before. But college basketball is not dying and it is not unwatchable. The NCAAT was terrific this year with a lot of great games. TV ratings are strong. This year was the best in years. It's true that the overall quality of play is down from 15-20 years ago. But the biggest reason for that is the NBA and it's idiotic policy of pulling all the young talent out after 1 year of college, especially players that are by no means ready to play in the league and would benefit greatly from developing their skills further. The NBA is the biggest driver of the college game's problems. I don't expect anyone in the NBA to say it though.

I agree with you. Just take a small sample of Syracuse players as an example. Ennis can get drafted as a freshman only to sit on a bench for 2 NBA teams in his first year. He is not helping his team in the NBA at all, but a guy like CJ Fair, who is a much more complete player, can't get a sniff? The NBA has it all wrong. Draft CJ, even if he washes out in a year or two at least he has a chance to contribute this year. Let Ennis get better in college and prove himself. Again, just my opinion, but it would make both leagues much more watchable.

 

[Alsacs]

Certainly the officiating in college games is bad and I have commented on that before. But college basketball is not dying and it is not unwatchable. The NCAAT was terrific this year with a lot of great games. TV ratings are strong. This year was the best in years. It's true that the overall quality of play is down from 15-20 years ago. But the biggest reason for that is the NBA and it's idiotic policy of pulling all the young talent out after 1 year of college, especially players that are by no means ready to play in the league and would benefit greatly from developing their skills further. The NBA is the biggest driver of the college game's problems. I don't expect anyone in the NBA to say it though.

College hoops has become a 1 month sport nationally. If the sport had better quality of games it could get better ratings and move the needle during the season.

NBA teams don't force kids to come out and can't pass on talent/potential. Why did Larry Johnson return to UNLV in 1991 after winning the title in 1990, or why did Shaq stay 3 years, Chris Webber stay 2 years, Tim Duncan stay 4 years?

In the 90's not many kids decided to leave after 1 year. Their are few talents who should come out after 1 year, but the NBA can't force kids to stay. College hoops is suffering because the game is horribly officiated and the elite talent has been drained out. You need stars or undefeated teams to get elite ratings. Ratings were up this year because Kentucky was undefeated and Duke moves the needle as well.

 

[Madbiker]

College hoops has become a 1 month sport nationally. If the sport had better quality of games it could get better ratings and move the needle during the season.

NBA teams don't force kids to come out and can't pass on talent/potential. Why did Larry Johnson return to UNLV in 1991 after winning the title in 1990, or why did Shaq stay 3 years, Chris Webber stay 2 years, Tim Duncan stay 4 years?

In the 90's not many kids decided to leave after 1 year. Their are few talents who should come out after 1 year, but the NBA can't force kids to stay. College hoops is suffering because the game is horribly officiated and the elite talent has been drained out. You need stars or undefeated teams to get elite ratings. Ratings were up this year because Kentucky was undefeated and Duke moves the needle as well.

Always like reading your posts and what you have to say. But disagree with you here. The NBA changed the way it operates. Guys like Jordan, Shaq and Duncan stayed in college because NBA GM's were not offering them huge guaranteed contracts to come out after a year or 2. The NBA of that era wanted college to be the developmental system and the PR incubator of its future stars. They weren't all competing with each other to pull undeveloped kids out after a year of college or direct from high school. True that nobody is "forcing" today's kids to leave college. But if NBA teams are going to offer multi-year multi-million dollar guaranteed contracts to kids after their freshman year... they are heavily incentivising them to leave college. NBA teams were not doing that 25 years ago so the kids stayed in college for 3-4 years.

 

[SBU72]

Except the NBA is in a better state now than it has been in quite some time. The playoffs are going to be great as they were the last few seasons.

The playoffs for the NCAA were generally great too, including the conference playoffs. As Bilas puts it, that's what hides the problems. Most people only see the tourney(s) and see a much better game an think it needs only minor tweaking when in fact it needs a major over haul.

 

[Alsacs]

Always like reading your posts and what you have to say. But disagree with you here. The NBA changed the way it operates. Guys like Jordan, Shaq and Duncan stayed in college because NBA GM's were not offering them huge guaranteed contracts to come out after a year or 2. The NBA of that era wanted college to be the developmental system and the PR incubator of its future stars. They weren't all competing with each other to pull undeveloped kids out after a year of college or direct from high school. True that nobody is "forcing" today's kids to leave college. But if NBA teams are going to offer multi-year multi-million dollar guaranteed contracts to kids after their freshman year... they are heavily incentivising them to leave college. NBA teams were not doing that 25 years ago so the kids stayed in college for 3-4 years.

Kids leave because they want to. The NBA doesn't want these kids leaving early, but they can't force them to stay in school or play elsewhere. The NBA passed the 1 and done to atleast get 1 year to evaluate. They wanted less Kwame Brown's, Leon Smith's and Robert Swift's. Of course the Lebron's, Kobe's, McGrady's, Chandler's were fine.

The NBA shouldn't be forced to clean up the eligibility rules it should be up to kids getting better advice. NCAA hoops needs stars to be relevant in the regular season. The 2007-2008 season was a great season for most college fans not SU fan, but that season had Kevin Love, Derrick Rose, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, Michael Beasley and Russell Westbrook were stars in college and that season had great games. Now they all left college hoops after that year and drained the talent pool.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

There are over 300 teams in NCAA, if you can't find great NCAA basketball to watch, you are not trying. Did you watch the tournament this year? Yeah scoring is down a bit and there are a few things that can help improve the game, but that is true in every sport. College hoops is still a gem. The game is fine, the passion is unmatched and the tournament is the best thing in sports. Again, yes, some tweaks need to be made, just like in every sport. You can like the NBA, or even prefer it, Mr. Cuban, don't blame the NCAA for the boring product (IMO) that is the NBA.

I refused to watch the tournament this year, in large part because I feel the NCAA dealt with us unfairly, but also because I just don't enjoy watching the college game in general anymore.

Certainly the officiating in college games is bad and I have commented on that before. But college basketball is not dying and it is not unwatchable. The NCAAT was terrific this year with a lot of great games. TV ratings are strong. This year was the best in years. It's true that the overall quality of play is down from 15-20 years ago. But the biggest reason for that is the NBA and it's idiotic policy of pulling all the young talent out after 1 year of college, especially players that are by no means ready to play in the league and would benefit greatly from developing their skills further. The NBA is the biggest driver of the college game's problems. I don't expect anyone in the NBA to say it though.

I actually think it would help if the NCAA struggled more, because they'd be forced to make it better. Right now all the TV and NCAA money is camouflaging real problems.

 

[two3zone]

I agree with just about everything people have said about the NBA in this thread.

HOWEVER, many posters seem to be painting with a broad brush. Sure, the quality of play from the San Antonios, Golden States, Clevelands, etc. is amazing high. And the intensity / quality of play ratchets up exponentially in the second round of the playoffs, after the deadweight has been trimmed.

But not every team plays at that level. It is one thing to point to the great teams and discuss how fantastic they play, and how consistent they are. But I invite you to watch a Minnesota game, or a Knicks game, or a Lakers game, and you'll see a completely different level of play.

There is no question that the elite teams [and even the good teams] play at a level that is far superior to NCAA basketball. Can't be disputed.

But there is also a lot of low quality ball played in the NBA that many NBA advocates conveniently fail to bring up when defending the professional game.

I actually like watching Minnesota, Wiggins and Lavine can do some pretty amazing things, but I get your point. There are some bad teams out there.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The NBA has it all wrong.

 

[SBU72]

Kids leave because they want to. The NBA doesn't want these kids leaving early, but they can't force them to stay in school or play elsewhere. The NBA passed the 1 and done to atleast get 1 year to evaluate. They wanted less Kwame Brown's, Leon Smith's and Robert Swift's. Of course the Lebron's, Kobe's, McGrady's, Chandler's were fine.

The NBA shouldn't be forced to clean up the eligibility rules it should be up to kids getting better advice. NCAA hoops needs stars to be relevant in the regular season. The 2007-2008 season was a great season for most college fans not SU fan, but that season had Kevin Love, Derrick Rose, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, Michael Beasley and Russell Westbrook were stars in college and that season had great games. Now they all left college hoops after that year and drained the talent pool.

Has long as kids have relatives who advise kids, or "friends" or AAU coaches or other finically interested parties, better advice is coming.

As for what is bad in the college game, the concept that a foul can't be called on every play. Coaches who coach with this philosophy in mind, will bring the game down. When refs (even bad ones) start calling the mugging that goes on despite how often they have to do it, the game will change.